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Wife Beating in Islam - The Rules.

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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wife Beating in Islam - The Rules.
    Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 22:13
Here is another video, i was ashamed what i heared there, specially what the woman said.
 
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 23:59
Originally posted by Constantine XI

It took a prolonged discussion by serious academic minds to untangle the true essence of the meaning of this word. How can we expect a person of average intelligence or not especially great education to get the true meaning of this wording?
That is why you are allowed to read the Quran, but not interpret it as you see it fits. Otherwise, my interpretation is different than yours, than Seko, than Sparten, than than....
It is good to have differences, but not all differences are goods. For example, someone decided that his interpretation of the text (ignoring its application by the prophet himself, timing, and story sequence) means he can beat his wife as he sees it fit to "discipline" her. Can we allow for such opinion? why would that guy interpret the verse to give him an extra privilage above what the prophet himself had?
That is ,as far as I know, why Islamic scholars are highly respected. Not because they are holy (no human can be holy except prophets), but because they have the knowledge and can connect the full meaning of things and explain to us things without ignoring the full 3 dimensions of the verse. Literal meaning is one dimension and the easiest. Anyone can read anything literally.
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 00:49
Thanks for the video Maziar.
 
The sheik (from my link) warned "even if the wife forgives him, it doesn't mean Allah will on judgment day".  Good statement.
 
Did he imply that only slapping is allowed?  He just said no leaving marks, bruising, blood, fractures, etc.
 
Spousal slapping is considered illegal in my country, but still occurs commonly & is rarely reported.
 
In Islam, is a spouse allowed to say "no" to having sex?  In my country, a spouse can refuse any time.  If the other doesn't like it, he or she can leave.
 


Edited by Hellios - 18-Oct-2006 at 00:53
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 01:02
And then there is also the great divide between what is written & what is said to be written, what is taught & what is practised, what is the interpretation in an aggressive mood & the interpretation while defending against a superior majority or in awkward situations. It's funny how interpretations change so often.
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 01:16
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

And then there is also the great divide between what is written & what is said to be written, what is taught & what is practised, what is the interpretation in an aggressive mood & the interpretation while defending against a superior majority or in awkward situations. It's funny how interpretations change so often.
 
Yes, religion is more difficult to interpret than law is.  This is a decent argument for a secular government.  Codes of law (based on universal human rights) are easier to interpret than religious texts are.
 


Edited by Hellios - 18-Oct-2006 at 02:14
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 03:33
Originally posted by Hellios

Did he imply that only slapping is allowed?  He just said no leaving marks, bruising, blood, fractures, etc.
slapping leaves marks plus it physically hurts. As far as I know, taping is ok at the maximum.
And no, this interpretation I presented is not fresh made yesterday, that is already stated in Quranic interpretation 1400 years ago.
 
Originally posted by Hellios

Spousal slapping is considered illegal in my country, but still occurs commonly & is rarely reported.
even in my country. Unfortunately, though there are Islamic laws that protect the women from physical abuse, these laws are not implemented on the ground. What is the benific of a good law that is not applied, partially applied, corrupted, or misused?
I believe that any place in this world, if there are no laws that are strictly executed, there are a group of people whose actions are not restricted by common moral. We have a saying in Arabic "man amena al eqab, asa' al adab" which means "whoever secured himself from punishment, he who misbehaves"
 
Originally posted by Hellios

In Islam, is a spouse allowed to say "no" to having sex?  In my country, a spouse can refuse any time.  If the other doesn't like it, he or she can leave.
excellent question which I'm not 100% sure about its answer. I can say for now (will search more) that the general rule, you cannot physically force your wife to have sex, to convert....etc. However, that does not mean necessary that there is no punishment for it in hearafter. To give you an example, say a wife was mad on her husband and she obstained from having sex with him for a while to punish him. Though he cannot force her into bed physically, I believe some interpretations state that her conduct is a sin where she is forcing her husband to not release his sexual energy, hence, forcing him after a while to seek other alternatives out of the marriage circle, which means furnication which defeats the whole purpose of marriage. So State law giver her that right, but in a religious standard, she has committed a sin unless there is a justified reason for her action. That also applies to a husband who obstains his wife from sex, travels for long periods disregarding her personal needs.
Of course this is not a rigid rule. It is subject to case by case review. For instance, I was told of a case in which a wife was not only granted the right to obstain from co-habitating her husband, but also later a divorce action against her husband. Simply because he changed to be smelly and dirty Confused, thus, sexually not applealing to her and unsuitable to co-habit.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 04:49
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by Constantine XI

But really how severe is the female inflicted violence? I imagine much of it would be confined to petty slaps across the face or other such minor things. Men, on the other hand, have the natural capacity for far greater damage.
The trick is of course that a man won't be taken seriously if he says he's beaten by his wife. Also if he decides to divorce, there's a big chance he will see his children significantly less often or perhaps even not any more at all.

So though when a woman inflicts violence on her husband it may not be too bad physically speaking, but psychologically it has a huge impact.
 
Physical damage can be bigger than you think. I read in a magazine once about a guy who had an agressive girlfriend. She once threw a heavy coffeecup against his head, banged a kitchen cupboard door against his head (for which he needed stitches), and kicked him in the crotch. He finally left after she threw a heavy glass vase at him (needing stithcing again).
You might think him a coward, but he was not. He just refused to hit back, which I think shows impressive self-control. And each time, after she had calmed down, she would aplogise, and swear never to do it again and all that. It took him some time (and several injuries) to realise they were not incidents, and she would not change.
 
Now, I can guarantee, I'm not known for self-control... If any man/boyfriend/ husband would hit me, I'd bloody well hit back. Hard. (and leave him, of course)

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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 05:17
You have the right credentials to become a great general, and a poor spiritual leader. Smile (Don't get serious)
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 05:44
What about spanking your spouse?  It's a debate in my country. LOL
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 12:17
Originally posted by Hellios

What about spanking your spouse?  It's a debate in my country. LOL
on the bed? Wink
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 13:06
Hihihi.  Embarrassed
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 00:08
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by Constantine XI

But really how severe is the female inflicted violence? I imagine much of it would be confined to petty slaps across the face or other such minor things. Men, on the other hand, have the natural capacity for far greater damage.
The trick is of course that a man won't be taken seriously if he says he's beaten by his wife. Also if he decides to divorce, there's a big chance he will see his children significantly less often or perhaps even not any more at all.

So though when a woman inflicts violence on her husband it may not be too bad physically speaking, but psychologically it has a huge impact.
 
Physical damage can be bigger than you think. I read in a magazine once about a guy who had an agressive girlfriend. She once threw a heavy coffeecup against his head, banged a kitchen cupboard door against his head (for which he needed stitches), and kicked him in the crotch. He finally left after she threw a heavy glass vase at him (needing stithcing again).
You might think him a coward, but he was not. He just refused to hit back, which I think shows impressive self-control. And each time, after she had calmed down, she would aplogise, and swear never to do it again and all that. It took him some time (and several injuries) to realise they were not incidents, and she would not change.
 
Now, I can guarantee, I'm not known for self-control... If any man/boyfriend/ husband would hit me, I'd bloody well hit back. Hard. (and leave him, of course)
I would never hit a woman.Even if she hit me. Not the way I was raised.
I have seen what it can do, a few years ago when I was in a play. The script called for me to slap one of the girls. We setup a routine whereby, I would aim for her cheek which was facing away from the audience and at the last second she would raise her hand and I would strike that insted.
Couple of times we got the timing wrong and I eneded up hitting her instead. Caused a cut lip each time. And I am not a particularly big man (5'10) and she was 5'7. ANd I did not hit hard either.
 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 02:13
Spanking is Ok for once, but lashes can be very cruel.
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 02:20
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Spanking is Ok for once, but lashes can be very cruel.
Spanking is ok once? never! Big smile
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 11:57
Men who beat women are sick in head IMO, beating women is a macho act, What do you suppose to do if you want to marry, you want to bring you home an animal which you beat if it makes something wrong, and it should wash and cook for you and it should be a birthing-machine? or you want a wife who is your partner for life and has the same rights like you?
Men who beat women has no respect for her inteligece and think women are brainless and men have to think for them.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 12:04
I think you should make a difference between a man who baets his wife because he thinks he has the moral right to and a man who lashes out in anger. Neither is excusable, but there is a very different mentality.
 
A man who beats in anger is likely to react agressive to others as well, he does not beat because he thinks his wife is inferior, but because he cannot out his emotions differently. Although I would not accept it, and I would break off the relation for it, I could possibly forgive, certainly when this man seeks help for his problem.
 
But a man who beats because he thinks he has the right to, or even because he thinks he should because it is the right thing to do, him I would never ever forgive.

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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 15:05
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

And then there is also the great divide between what is written & what is said to be written, what is taught & what is practised, what is the interpretation in an aggressive mood & the interpretation while defending against a superior majority or in awkward situations. It's funny how interpretations change so often.


Yes, religion ismore difficult to interpret than law is. This is adecent argument for a secular government. Codes of law (based on universal human rights) areeasier to interpret than religious texts are.


    
That's exactly why I feel there should be separation of religion(church) and state. Governments should not permit any religion to influence law making decisions.

I don't care where it is written or by whom that women should be beaten, because, in my opinion, women should never be physically abused, period. Likewise, I don't believe women should abuse men either. There are other alternatives to deal with discontentment in relationships. Again, education and communition are key factors. Personally, I find men who beat women to be cowards and in desperate need of therapy.

   

Edited by morticia - 19-Oct-2006 at 15:16
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 01:13
Morticia you are right, that is why we have an independent law for the Hindus in our country, which is not based on any religion.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 01:50
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Morticia you are right, that is why we have an independent law for the Hindus in our country, which is not based on any religion.
 
Personal law in India is based on the religion as interpreted by a couple of handpicked people.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 01:52
Only for the muslims.Smile

Edited by Vivek Sharma - 20-Oct-2006 at 01:53
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