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TeldeInduz View Drop Down
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Women and Religion
    Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 02:10
Originally posted by malizai_

Tele
 
There are no versions of the Koran only various translations. There is huge difference.
 
Alright, I'm being lazy with my words. translations/interpretations.
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 03:39
Aye, both Telde and Malizai are correct.

4:34 by a reputable translator:

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 04:05
The translation of beat (lightly) is debateable according to some interpretations.
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 04:29
'Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient'
 
And this is somehow not degrading to women? Just because men are pysically stronger, they have the right to tell us what to do? Sorry boys, that's not going to cut it for me...

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 13:40
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Aye, both Telde and Malizai are correct.

4:34 by a reputable translator:


<a name="004.034">004.034</a>


YUSUFALI:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah
has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support
them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient,
and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to
those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them
(first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them
(lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of
annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).



Well, your interpretation seems to clearly indicate that men ARE superior to women. To say that a woman has a "protector", has a "maintainer", is considered physically weaker than a man, and must be punished and/or beaten for being disloyal, certainly is a clear indication that women are inferior to men. It, therefore, deprecates women.   I fail to see how your interpretation discards the issue of man's superiority.

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 16:04
Women 'are' weaker then men, generally.Shocked
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 16:10
Originally posted by malizai_

Women 'are' weaker then men, generally.[IMG]height=17 alt=Shocked src="http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

    
...and men can't give birth to babies! soooo, what's your point?
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 19:02
Originally posted by Telde

The translation of beat (lightly) is debateable according to some interpretations.

True. The prophet disapproved of it too. The prescribed method is a strike with a siwak (a soft stick used for teeth cleaning), which is actually a trick. We tested it, if you get a toothbrush sized object - like a pen, and hit a person with it, most of the force is transmitted into causing the pen to fly from your hand. You can't actually hurt anyone with a siwak, although it would do alot to lessen the anger of the aggressor.
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

'Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient'
 
And this is somehow not degrading to women? Just because men are pysically stronger, they have the right to tell us what to do? Sorry boys, that's not going to cut it for me...

Each to your own. Pretty well this happens in western families anyway.

Originally posted by Morty

I fail to see how your interpretation discards the issue of man's superiority.

Its not superiority, its just differents. Men and Women are suited for different things. Like you said, men can't give birth, so its the mans job to "support them from their means".

btw "what Allah would have them guard" is chastity. Thus disloyalty is specifically disloyalty to the marriage.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 09:48
"To say that a woman has a "protector", has a "maintainer", is considered physically weaker than a man."
 
I was just pointing out that they 'are'. Nothing more nothing less.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 10:36
Originally posted by malizai_

"To say that a woman has a "protector", has a "maintainer", is considered physically weaker than a man."


I was just pointing out that they 'are'. Nothing more nothing less.


Okay, but the fact that women are "weaker" than men in physical strength does not constitute man's "superiority" over woman. I could just as easily say that women (as procreators) are superior to men, because without women, there's no population....but, women never say that! Women just accept their roles as procreators and leave it at that.

My personal opinion is that men have taken advantage of that "physical strength" over women and have used that strength as a method to threaten, control and manipulate women into doing what they feel is appropriate behaviour in their respective societies.   Women, knowing they can't equal a man's physical strength, would have no choice but to succumb in order to avoid a "beating" or death or who-knows-what-else! The writings contained in 34:4 are clearly intended to instruct men how to manipulate a woman - through fear and bodily harm!   Naughy, naughty boys!


Edited by morticia - 11-Jan-2007 at 10:37
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 14:08
Ofcourse no one is superior, all men are equal.LOL
Men however generally will dominate women as they have always done, blame evolution.
 
Women should learn kung-fu, go to the gym and go up a size.Smile
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 16:43
morticia:

 

You're entirely making too much of this. In Islam, men are treated as men, and women are treated as women. The end.

 

Also, bear in mind that women's suffrage only took place in America in the 1920s and prior to then, women were deemed especially inferior to men. Blacks and other minorities were treated as second-class citizens until the late 1960s, and the Native American population in the U.S.A. is virtually non-existent now -especially when compared to their presence in the Americas prior to the 17th Century. My point being that one should look inward prior to criticizing others.

 

Now, if all these ^^^ things took place in 20th Century America, then you can understand why the Qu'ran, having been written almost 1400 years ago, would state it as such. It wasn't really until the 1970s that American women really began acheiving "equality" (although it is debateable whether they have actually acheived this), and there were texts written and used in American schools in the 20th Century that taught girls and boys that women were inferior to men -now if this was happening in 20th Century America, wouldn't you EXPECT it to happen in 7th Century Arabia???

 
Wouldn't you expect a book written in 7th Century Arabia to say that women are inferior when 20th Century American textbooks said the same exact thing???


Edited by The Grim Reaper - 11-Jan-2007 at 16:43
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2007 at 19:36
Originally posted by Omar

The prescribed method is a strike with a siwak (a soft stick used for teeth cleaning), which is actually a trick. We tested it, if you get a toothbrush sized object - like a pen, and hit a person with it, most of the force is transmitted into causing the pen to fly from your hand. You can't actually hurt anyone with a siwak, although it would do alot to lessen the anger of the aggressor.
 
Are you serious Omar?
This sounds more like a symbolic ritual than a physical punishment.
In any case, I would never try that on my wife - she, or maybe even both of us, would die from laughing too hard if I came charging at her with a teethbrush or toothpick.Smile
 
That aside, of course Morty has a point. Not only related to Muslims, but to all old religions and tribal traditions (which largely is analog) - maybe aside from certain directions of Christanity who dismiss the Old Testament.
Oppressed women was also the norm in all western countries until 40 years ago, and it still is the norm, maybe in more cases than we are willing to admit.  
 
The difference in behavior and perception as I see it, is related to the fact that most westeners moves towards a more liberal attitude towards religion, whereas the followers of the old eastern religions are more Godfearing and respectful towards their (sometimes not so nice) religious leaders who may interpreet the scriptures almost to their own likings.
 
Another contrast and contributing factor to the difference is, that most western countries actually have laws they enforce, forbidding violence and oppression in any shape or form.
 
~ Northman
 


Edited by Northman - 11-Jan-2007 at 19:36
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 06:45
Originally posted by Northman

 
In any case, I would never try that on my wife - she, or maybe even both of us, would die from laughing too hard if I came charging at her with a teethbrush or toothpick.Smile
  
 
You can kill a person with a toothpick, stick with the siwak.Tongue You might have to take a bigger run up though.
 
I think in tribal societies or traditional societies as most Islamic countries are, there is a notion of protectorship afforded to women by her family at all times. So before a man decides to assault his wife he has to twice consider the consequences of being confronted with like from the women's household cavalry. Also the person's reputation will be tarnished as a wife beater, and he will be considered unmanly and thought of poorly(Social pressures). Usually If things get bad a period of separation is followed to allow things to cool off, or the man might approach the women's family to seek mediation. Islamic society place a greater emphasis on the preventative stages, so there are a series of layers of protection, that i find lacking in other models where individualism holds sway over community self policing. (Just an opinion).
 
In Muslim societies i think the biggest problem is women's ignorance, they dont know their rights and can not take the chauvinist mullahs to task.
 
Ofcourse there are some men that should never be let to get close to animals let alone get married and have kids. So there will always be some victims.Ouch
 
 
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 11:11
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

The prescribed method is a strike with a siwak (a soft stick used for teeth cleaning), which is actually a trick. We tested it, if you get a toothbrush sized object - like a pen, and hit a person with it, most of the force is transmitted into causing the pen to fly from your hand.


Omar, I was on the floor laughing so hard when I read this. If my better half ever came at me with a toothbrush or toothpick, I would certainly fight back with plenty of dental floss!!!!! That'll teach him to mess with me! Oh boy, now I've heard everything!
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 11:20
Originally posted by malizai_

In Muslim societies i think the biggest problem is women's ignorance, they dont know their rights and can not take the chauvinist mullahs to task.


Well, women's ignorance is caused by the dominant-male society in not allowing women to get an adequate education, in not allowing women to think for themselves (of course, men call it "protecting" women) [emphasis on sarcasm supplied] and in controlling women via physical harm and mental abuse. Do you disagree?
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 11:32
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

You're entirely making too much of this. In Islam, men are treated as men, and women aretreated as women. The end.


I beg to differ with you, Grim Reaper. When it comes to women's advancements and Rights, one can NEVER make too much of it. It has not been easy for Western women to obtain some sort of equality (notice I said SOME SORT OF EQUALITY)to that of men. It's taken a lot of blood, sweat and tears and women's rights should be afforded to ALL the women around the globe! Do you not think that is a good and positive thing for women?

The fact remains that women all over the world are still being abused physically and mentally, no matter what their religion...and that, my friend, can NEVER be taken lightly!
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 12:35
Originally posted by morticia

Originally posted by malizai_

In Muslim societies i think the biggest problem is women's ignorance, they dont know their rights and can not take the chauvinist mullahs to task.


Well, women's ignorance is caused by the dominant-male society in not allowing women to get an adequate education, in not allowing women to think for themselves (of course, men call it "protecting" women) [emphasis on sarcasm supplied] and in controlling women via physical harm and mental abuse. Do you disagree?
 
If i may correct myself here a little, i was not insinuating that all mullahs are chauvinists. I was saying that those that are can be challenged from the very text and be led out of their ignorance.
 
At the end i dont see women leading a military campaign against men so the only recourse is to convince by argument. I dont think men inherently lack the ability to understand women, just like women dont with men.Wink 
 
In the end what do we mean by equality. Do women want to run in the mens 100m.LOL Do they want men to stop standing up for them in buses, i would be naturally inclined to do that, but dont, because i never know if i am going to be dealing with a feminist or a feminine. However most would like someone to get up for them.Wink 
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 12:45

I dont think there should even be a womens history sub-forum, do we see a men history forum. Is that sexist? Why should their history be discussed seperately?, can you not be a women and from the mddle ages, or a woman and from columbia?. Is history gender specific? Y do women want seperation?

See!, men can come up with issues.LOLLOL
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2007 at 14:07
Originally posted by morticia

I beg to differ with you, Grim Reaper. When it comes to women's advancements and Rights, one can NEVER make too much of it. It has not been easy for Western women to obtain some sort of equality (notice I said SOME SORT OF EQUALITY)to that of men. It's taken a lot of blood, sweat and tears and women's rights should be afforded to ALL the women around the globe! Do you not think that is a good and positive thing for women?

The fact remains that women all over the world are still being abused physically and mentally, no matter what their religion...and that, my friend, can NEVER be taken lightly!
 
I did not say that you were "making too much of [women's rights]" ....
 
I said that you were "making too much of [how a book written in the 7th Century perceived women]" .......
 
Of course, the advancement in women's rights is a good thing! It's an excellent thing!
 
I also know that if the Qu'ran was written in the 21st Century, then the "place of women" in Islamic society would be completely different.
 
Do you understand that reasoning???Shocked


Edited by The Grim Reaper - 12-Jan-2007 at 14:07
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