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Rights groups urge Pakistan to reform rape laws.

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Hellios View Drop Down
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rights groups urge Pakistan to reform rape laws.
    Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 17:14
Thanks Telde.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 16:21

Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Rapes in Pakistan arent really that common simply because of the blood feud involved after such an event.

Telde, just curious; does Pakistani law permit a woman to say "no" to her husband for sex? Since the 70's (I think) there are laws in many countries that permit a woman to say "no" to any man (including her husband) for sex, anytime she pleases; it's her legal right. Studies show that this, combined with harsh laws preventing physical retaliation, can actually make somebody a better husband, hehe.

I'm not absolutely 100% sure on this. But I think now anyway, it's illegal for a husband to rape a wife. The Bill above that was passed says this

"375. Rape:-
A man is said to commit rape who has sexual intercourse with a woman under circumstances falling under any of the five following descriptions,

(i)

against her will.

   

(ii)

without her consent

   

(iii)

with her consent, when the consent has been obtained by putting her in fear of death or of hurt,

   

(iv)

with her consent, when the man knows that he is not married to her and that the consent is given because she believes that the man is another person to whom she is or believes herself to be married; or

   

(v)

With or without her consent when she is under sixteen years of age.

Explanation: Penetration is sufficient to constitute the sexual intercourse necessary to the offence of rape.

 
I think number i) just about covers everything, including married people. The wording of the old law was

A person is said to commit zina-bil-jabrif he or she has sexual inter-course with a woman or man, as the case may be, to whom he or she is not validly married, in any of the following circumstances, namely:-

(a) against the will of the victim;

(b) without the consent of the victim;

(c) with the consent of the victim, when the consent has been obtained by putting the victim in fear of death or of hurt; or

(d) with the consent of the victim , when the offender knows that the offender is not validly married to the victim and that the consent is given because the victim believes that the offender is another person to who the victim is or believes herself or himself to be validly married.

 
So, yes, the law does criminilize that sort of rape, I think..

But this sort of rape is legal in many other countries. I think until recently it was legal in the US in half the states, and even now it's considered a lesser crime, generally people are charged under other offences as there's not a specific law against it perhaps.



Edited by TeldeInduz - 30-Nov-2006 at 16:25
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 08:55
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Rapes in Pakistan arent really that common simply because of the blood feud involved after such an event.
 
That makes sense.
 
Telde, just curious; does Pakistani law permit a woman to say "no" to her husband for sex?  Since the 70's (I think) there are laws in many countries that permit a woman to say "no" to any man (including her husband) for sex, anytime she pleases; it's her legal right.  Studies show that this, combined with harsh laws preventing physical retaliation, can actually make somebody a better husband, hehe.
 


Edited by Hellios - 30-Nov-2006 at 09:09
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 01:19
LOL Laws have been discussed..Reports that in the previous law 4 witnesses were needed for a rape conviction are incorrect, and the only part of the law that needed changing was the automatic adultery charge which wasnt thought through very well and rushed into law without putting it before the parliament.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 00:55
The thread is about laws dear. discuss the laws. why are you trying to change the topic ?
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 00:28

What he said might not have been politically correct but it was accurate. It's a fact that people do make up claims of being raped to escape poverty in some cases and Musharraf was just speaking his mind like he did in his previous rants to journalists when they ask stupid questions like "whose side is Pakistan really on?" It's no big secret what he said anyhow.

Anybody who was gang raped I'm sure could not bear it, but you should worry more about Delhi women who are gang raped more than the whole of Asia put together.

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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 23:33
This is the point. There was something behind the issue that made it so infamous. Would you mind disclosing what the paki president had to say about the rape victims falsely complaining ?

This case was a dramatic demonstration of the  culmination of the sufferings of the women victims to such a point that they could no longer bear it.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 22:50
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

If they are not so common then why the fuss over it ? Why the protest. Did everything materialise out of thin air ? Mukhtar Mai started crying tears tears for nothing ?
 
What sort of logic is this? There's thousands of cases like the one of Muktar Mai in India (and the rest of the world) where the rapists cannot be found or there's not enough evidence for a rape, or even that the rapists are released without charge or after having served a couple of years in jail. One gang rape in Pakistan and it makes international news headlines is a testamont to the the fact that gang rapes are so rare in Pakistan that one case in Pakistan can get so much attention.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 20:46
If they are not so common then why the fuss over it ? Why the protest. Did everything materialise out of thin air ? Mukhtar Mai started crying tears tears for nothing ?
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 10:33
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

If everything is so hunky dory then why the fuss over that issue ?
 
Rapes in Pakistan arent really that common simply because of the blood feud involved after such an event. I guess the human rights people want to kick up a fuss about it. In Mukhtar Mai's case the international media seems to be crying out for executions or some form of punishment for someone, but the right person has to be punished.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 10:25
^8 thousand supporters in a country of 160 million is nothing. Karachi alone has nearly 15 million people. There;s still another 159, 992,000 people who didnt bother.
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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 06:53
Thousands rally against change in Pakistan rape laws
 
AFP

November 27, 2006

OPPOSITION: Supporters of the opposition Islamic alliance beat a poster of Bush and Musharraf during a rally in Karachi November 26. The rally was held to protest against amendments to Pakistan's Islamic rape laws.
(REUTERS)
KARACHI, Pakistan --  Thousands of supporters of hardline Islamic parties staged a rally in Karachi Sunday in protests against the passage of a bill that amends the country's Islamic rape laws.

Pakistani parliament this month voted that rape and adultery cases should no longer be heard under the country's harsh religious laws. The Islamic hardliners boycotted the proceedings.

Around 8,000 people participated in the rally called by the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA), an alliance of six fundamentalist parties.

MMA activists carrying banners and placards chanted slogans against President Pervez Musharraf and Pakistan's war on terror ally the United States.

"We'll intensify our protests to mobilize the people to stand against the induction of anti-Islamic laws," a central MMA leader, Hafiz Hussain Ahmed, told the rally.

He claimed that secular parties were trying to change the country's Islamic identity.

"Secular parties have sided with military dictator General Musharraf to change the Islamic identity of Pakistan, which we would not allow," Ahmed said.

Slamming the parliament another leader, Liaquat Baloch, said that MMA lawmakers would resign from their seats next month.

"This bill has been passed by General Musharraf to appease his masters in Washington," Baloch said.

The parliament overwhelmingly approved the Women Protection Bill to overhaul widely criticized religious legislation known as Hudood Laws. The laws have run parallel to Pakistan's British-influenced penal code.

The late military dictator, General Zia ul Haq, introduced the Hudood Laws 27 years ago as part of a sweeping Islamization of Pakistan that coincided with the country's role in the anti-Soviet jihad in Afghanistan.

The laws currently say that women must produce four Muslim male witnesses as evidence of rape - an almost impossible burden of evidence - or potentially face adultery charges themselves.

The maximum sentence for adultery by a man or a woman under the laws is death by stoning, although that has never been enforced and those convicted of the crime get jail or a fine instead.

Human rights groups, who have long campaigned for a change in the law, hailed the bill as a step forward for Pakistani women.
 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 21:02
If everything is so hunky dory then why the fuss over that issue ?
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 06:16
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Coming back to the subject, Mukhtar Mai's case is a great testimony of the reality. 
 
Mukhtar Mai's case was not held under standard Pakistani law. Her case was held in an anti terror court that does not need as high standards of evidence as Pakistani civil courts (five men were found guilty and sentenced to death here). The conviction of the anti terror courts was then thought to be unsafe when Muktar Mai appealed to the Multan bench, and a retrial was ordered. What's wrong with that?
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 06:00
That is a punishment to the boy, who went back on his committments made to the girl during their affair. The Panchayat is ensuring that he keeps his committment.
 
What affair? The link clearly says the girl was raped by him and the Hindu Panchayat ordered him to marry the girl!


Unlike the muslim panchayats which are still supporting the rape of sisters, daughters etc.. by their family members & converting erstwhile wives into mothers, daughters into wives, husbands into sons & making a mockery of all relations.

Off course I am not saying that you should not support them. Off course you would to guard your belief. I have no problems with that.  in a free society, everybody has a right to his belief
 
Perhaps in India they are.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 28-Nov-2006 at 06:17
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 21:03
Coming back to the subject, Mukhtar Mai's case is a great testimony of the reality. 
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 21:00
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

 
Noone is forcing them! So why does it say that the the boy's family were "directed" by the Hindu "scholars" to keep the rape victim as a wife?
 


That is a punishment to the boy, who went back on his committments made to the girl during their affair. The Panchayat is ensuring that he keeps his committment.


Unlike the muslim panchayats which are still supporting the rape of sisters, daughters etc.. by their family members & converting erstwhile wives into mothers, daughters into wives, husbands into sons & making a mockery of all relations.

Off course I am not saying that you should not support them. Off course you would to guard your belief. I have no problems with that.  in a free society, everybody has a right to his belief.


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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 15:39
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Frustration repeated by a different person.

Different personalities, Identical mentalities ! With this it is not dificult to understand the plight of the women mentioned in the topic ! May god save them.


 
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:04
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

In the case of the hindu girl, they had a small affair sometime back, Both parties are trying to work out a marriage as an option. Nobody is forcing them.
 
Noone is forcing them! So why does it say that the the boy's family were "directed" by the Hindu "scholars" to keep the rape victim as a wife?
 
"Though the victim's family members were demanding action against the accused, the panchayat directed the boy's family, also a Dalit, to keep the girl as his wife."
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2006 at 04:37
In the case of the hindu girl, they had a small affair sometime back, Both parties are trying to work out a marriage as an option. Nobody is forcing them. The police have booked the culprit & are proceeding slowly as a marriage is on the cards. But these people are not related as father in law & daughter in law.

In the case of muslims, the problem is India's democracy. They constitute the biggest vote bank in the country & all political parties except the BJP will go to any extent to gather their votes.
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