Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

American Tribunate: the people curbing the elites
 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
hugoestr View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 13-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3987 		  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: American Tribunate: the people curbing the elites
    Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 06:20
Political scientist John McCormick uses Machiavelli's analysis of Roman Tribune of plebeians for the purpose of curbing the power of the elites in the U.S.

McCormick himself understands that this is not going to happen, but please consider the idea.

But McCormick has a more radically Machiavellian idea. He proposes amending the Constitution to create America's own Tribunate Assembly. (Yes, he realizes this is not going to happen anytime soon.)

McCormick's Tribunate would consist of 51 private citizens (more or less a random number), selected by lottery (no campaign expenses!) from among those whose household net worth falls below $345,000, thereby excluding the wealthiest 10 percent of Americans. In his thought experiment, the plebeians, during one-year terms, would discuss the business of government five days a week and would be empowered to veto one Supreme Court decision, one act of congressional legislation, and one executive order each year. They could also call one nationwide referendum on any issue they chose, and initiate impeachment proceedings.
    

Hook! Machiavelli's solution against corruption
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 07:53
selecting people by lot is not as ridiculous as it sounds. In pre-modern ages (Athens, Venice) it was widely used, and even considered more democratic than voting. After all, lot gives everybody an equal chance, whereas with voting you'll always have people who have a bigger chance than others to get elected.
Back to Top
Sock Puppet View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 30-Mar-2006
Location: Reunion
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Sock Puppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 04:44
Originally posted by hugoestr

Political scientist John McCormick uses Machiavelli's analysis of Roman Tribune of plebeians for the purpose of curbing the power of the elites in the U.S.

McCormick himself understands that this is not going to happen, but please consider the idea.

But McCormick has a more radically Machiavellian idea. He proposes amending the Constitution to create America's own Tribunate Assembly. (Yes, he realizes this is not going to happen anytime soon.)

McCormick's Tribunate would consist of 51 private citizens (more or less a random number), selected by lottery (no campaign expenses!) from among those whose household net worth falls below $345,000, thereby excluding the wealthiest 10 percent of Americans. In his thought experiment, the plebeians, during one-year terms, would discuss the business of government five days a week and would be empowered to veto one Supreme Court decision, one act of congressional legislation, and one executive order each year. They could also call one nationwide referendum on any issue they chose, and initiate impeachment proceedings.
    

Hook! Machiavelli's solution against corruption
 
Why hey, we can start collecting the books for burning now, hang the nooses from the street lamps in preparation and choose our next vacations based upon where we don't thing the nuclear fallout will have gotten to yet!
 
And that's presuming we don't get a majority of southerners in the 51.
 
 
When in Rome do as the Romans do, is not good advice when visiting an Italian public toilet.
Back to Top
hugoestr View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 13-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3987 		  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 10:12
What are you talking about?
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489 		  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 13:10
I must admit that the purpose of this thought experiment,makes it positive and puts to the fore the problems of parliamentary democracy in countries with huge populations,in this case the USA with it's 300.000.000 people.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Sock Puppet View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 30-Mar-2006
Location: Reunion
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Sock Puppet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 04:06
Originally posted by hugoestr

What are you talking about?
 
Year one - Nationwide referrendums called. Bring back public execution, abolishing abortion, evolutionary theory banned in schools, pedo suspects imprisoned without trial and mandatory monthly drugs tests for all at work.
 
You hand the American public power and they'll make Hitler look like Nader.
When in Rome do as the Romans do, is not good advice when visiting an Italian public toilet.
Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 03:23
I agree with the above to some extent.  First of all, I hate democracy in any form, and this form is just as bad as any other.  The currect elite are so grossly corrupt, but that should not mean we embrace populism.  To regulate an elite (elites usually are people who embrace reality and thus got far and not ideological nuts-unless of course they are elected elites) all you need is strong enforcement of seperation of powers and oversight and a seperation of government and business like the one that seperates government from religion.
 
No one is less fit to govern than the masses, and no one more dangerous.  Even if not elected, all the scariest and most vile of histories regimes have their roots in populism.  And plebes on their own of a random selection-well let me tell you, after serving on a jury I can tell you random losts are a good way to collect random idiots.
 
I believe in meritocracy and nothing else, random lots are the most antithetical system to that I could think of.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2006 at 21:25
I see the merit in both your arguments however I disagree to some extent. I think the masses are more apt to do what is good now as oposed to the long term greater good. I do agree with you Tobodai that totally random lots is a great way to "collect random idiots" but perhaps it would not be as bad as you think. Perhaps it would force people to get more involved and educated. But at the same time perhaps as history has shown it would be a mistake.

This idea that the "madding crowd" - to use the words of Thomas Hardy - is not to be trusted was at the heart of the debates held by the founding fathers of the US. This Machiavellian model was the one that won out over the Venitian/Guiciardinian model.

The notion that the American public would bring back public execution, abolish abortion, and ban the theory of evolution is absurd. Yes there are plenty who would want all these things to come to fruition. There are however just as many who would fight to the death to see these samething never happen. These are contentious issues that split the country 50/50.
Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 00:22
I served on jury duty recently, any faith I once had in the random people bettering themselves to suit their new position is totally gone now.  I had to fight tooth and nail to say "yes person X deserves Y, and Person X is testimony is compromized by unsavory personality defect Y, but your job is to go with what is applicable UNDER ESTABLISHED LAW.  It took me a long time to get those morons around to reason.  If I hadnt been there it would have been a legal disaster, and Im sure those little disasters happen everywhere in courtrooms around the country everyday.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 05:00
So you Hung em High.

It wasn't by any chance like that Henry Fonda movie 12 Angry Men. 11 fools think he's innocent but Tobodai one by one talks em round to guilty......
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 14:13
I wish it was that interesting.  Actually, sorry to dissapoint you, I was argung for a lighter sentance.  My "peers" wanted to give the dude 15 years because they were all emotional and mad and I said "law +plus mitigating factors=like 8 years.  I won in the end but it sure destroyed my faith in the jury dominated system.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
Denis View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 31-Dec-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207 		  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 15:16
I believe someone has given a name for this political idea somewhere - demarchy. Google it. Basically, under what was suggested to be a communist system, a random selector would select a council of men and women to rule the country. They would be selected at random. Sounds like madness if you ask me.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 15:18
Sounds crazy to me too.
Back to Top
Dan Carkner View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 07-Nov-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 490 		  Quote Dan Carkner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 12:58
It sounds crazy to me because corruption has long tentacles, just because someone is selected at random doesn't mean they are any less corruptible.
Back to Top
Denis View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 31-Dec-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207 		  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 08:54
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/92kio.html
Thats a pretty good article, I reccomend you read it.
"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.066 seconds.