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Your opinions about War in Iraq...

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Poll Question: Is American and her allied forces in Iraq justified?
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The Grim Reaper View Drop Down
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Your opinions about War in Iraq...
    Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 16:02

Originally posted by konstantinius

You're wrong, Saddam never threatened America.

 

He never bluffed about WMDs? He never tried to have George H.W. Bush assassinated?

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

You're confused. We attacked Saddam because he supposedly possesed WMD's,

He bluffed.

And he got called out on his bluff.

Originally posted by konstantinius

not because he's an Arab.

The 9-11 terrorists were Arabs, and Americans saw in his rogue regime, another Arab threat against America.

Originally posted by konstantinius

And the Saudi regime is FAR more threatening to global US interest because

But the regime itself is not a DIRECT threat.


Originally posted by konstantinius

a) is corrupt, backwards, and oppressive to its own people

That sucks for the Saudis but not for the Americans.

Originally posted by konstantinius

therefore sowing the seed for fundamendalist Islamic revolution, Iran-style, something that would never happen in Saddam's secular Iraq

Yeah, but radicalism is merely a byproduct of the Saudi monarchy's support for madrassas in underdeveloped Muslim nations whereas Saddam made very open, his distate for America and her allies in the region.

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

b) it is #1 producer of oil, a much-needed resource as we all know. And lets at least dispel the illusion that the whole Iraq affair is NOT about oil, shall we?

The war was not about oil. Oil is only a partial equation. The war is about fighting a radical terrorist threat that originates in the Middle East.

 

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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 16:05
The Grim Reaper, as I wrote before you are confusing ignorance for perception.


Edited by omshanti - 13-Jan-2007 at 16:32
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 16:54
Originally posted by omshanti

The Grim Reaper, as I wrote before you are confusing ignorance for perception.
 
Perception and ignorance go hand in hand, my friend.
 
The Arabs perceive America as the "Great Satan" do they not? Isn't this due to their ignorance?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 17:32
No, it's due to its track record in the middle east and many other places.  You know, overthrowing democracies, propping up brutal dictatorships, instigating bloody conflicts here and there... that sort of thing... 
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 18:07
Originally posted by Zagros

No, it's due to its track record in the middle east and many other places.  You know, overthrowing democracies, propping up brutal dictatorships, instigating bloody conflicts here and there... that sort of thing... 
 
Track record in the Middle East?
 
You mean like supporting Israel? A nation of 5.2 million Jews threatened by 300 million Arabs?
 
Overthrowing democracies? It happened once -in Iran, to Mohammed Mossadegh, and that was largely due to the UK and Mi-6. His overthrow was opposed by American President Truman.
 
Instigating bloody conflicts? Name one. The Middle East is rife with internal conflict and has a long history of bloodshed -America didn't have anything to do with that.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 18:09

Yes, the coexistence between one another is difficult. Heck, just look at this website's ban lists. Wacko Hail to moderators.

I think 9/11 was not significant because of the thounsands of American deaths. The huge psychological threat was. American continent was never attacked or challenged by any foreign powers. The darkest hour for the Americans was the Japanese Empire's surprise attack in Pearl Harbour... which far far away from the America's eastern beaches. When Pearl Harbour incident was published in public newspapers, the insurance of houses and land properties jumped. Chaos brought many Japanese Americans to concentration camp. 
 
Well, the business is good for some industries. Weapon and munition industries, bodyguards (For businessmen or other western people), investers in Iraq, etc.) 
     
   
Join us.
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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 18:27
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

Perception and ignorance go hand in hand, my friend.

They are two different things The Grim Reaper.
Perception is having a different take on truth.
Ignorance is being blind to truth.
Perception only comes hand in hand with ignorance when perceived by an ignorant mind.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 18:42
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

Originally posted by Zagros

No, it's due to its track record in the middle east and many other places.  You know, overthrowing democracies, propping up brutal dictatorships, instigating bloody conflicts here and there... that sort of thing... 
 
Track record in the Middle East?
 
You mean like supporting Israel? A nation of 5.2 million Jews threatened by 300 million Arabs?
 
Overthrowing democracies? It happened once -in Iran, to Mohammed Mossadegh, and that was largely due to the UK and Mi-6. His overthrow was opposed by American President Truman.
 
Instigating bloody conflicts? Name one. The Middle East is rife with internal conflict and has a long history of bloodshed -America didn't have anything to do with that.
 
No I mean like propping up ruthless dictators and toppling democratically elected governments and instigating conflicts, like I said. lol.
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 18:53
Originally posted by omshanti

They are two different things The Grim Reaper.
Perception is having a different take on truth.
Ignorance is being blind to truth.
Perception only comes hand in hand with ignorance when perceived by an ignorant mind.
 
No offence Mr. "omshanti" but in my opinion, you have displayed quite a bit of ignorance yourself by asking me to understand the Arab perspective on this issue, but not the American point of view!
 
Conflicts -from minor ones like school fights in elementary school to world wars- are all about misunderstandings and our perceptions of others, and this war is no different. The Arabs viewed America as the Great Satan and supported the Islamists, America now perceives the Arabs as a threat, and this has led to this unforsaken war!
 
Why can't you understand that? It's not ignorance on the part of the Americans! The Americans are not racist towards the Arabs or Muslims, rather, over the past five years, Americans have learned to differentiate between Islam and Islamism, Muslim and Islamist, Arab and Arabist or Arab nationalist! BUT, the Americans are still afraid of being attacked and that is what led to this war!!!
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 18:55
Originally posted by Zagros

No I mean like propping up ruthless dictators and toppling democratically elected governments and instigating conflicts, like I said. lol.
 
And like I said, NAME ONE CONFLICT in the Middle East that the America has "instigated"!
 
btw: I already explained to you that Mossadegh's toppling was the work of UK intelligence and influence -and that President Truman opposed it.
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  Quote Denis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 19:40
I already have made a post on my blog about this:

http://pansyirishliberal.wordpress.com/2007/01/08/was-the-iraq-war-worth-it/

Personally I think the Iraq war is the greatest travesty of justice in human history, and I told you all what would happen the day before we wandered in to Iraq.
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 20:06
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

Originally posted by Zagros

No I mean like propping up ruthless dictators and toppling democratically elected governments and instigating conflicts, like I said. lol.
 
And like I said, NAME ONE CONFLICT in the Middle East that the America has "instigated"!
 
btw: I already explained to you that Mossadegh's toppling was the work of UK intelligence and influence -and that President Truman opposed it.


Are you seriously claiming that the US had nothing to do with the overthrow of Mossadegh? Truman might've opposed it but  Dulles under Einsenhower didn't. The plans for the overthrow came at the instigation of the Brits BUT were drafted and executed by the CIA under the direction of the Dulles bros. The operation was dubbed "Operation Ajax" and was put in effect by the CIA head in the region, no other but Kermit Roosevelt Jr., grandson of FDR. All this is common knowledge, not worth discussing. We even went over it along the same lines in my modern history class of last semester that covered the Cold War and US foreign policy during it. The instructor was a moderate conservative (McKane enthusiast) with a PhD in foreign relations, no "lefty" sympathizer, and his "perception' was very acuteWink


Edited by konstantinius - 13-Jan-2007 at 20:09
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 20:19
Originally posted by Denis

.... and I told you all what would happen the day before we wandered in to Iraq.
 
That is just YOUR opinion.
 
The "I told you so ...." dialogue would only come into play if there was a clear answer to the dilemma, which there is not here.LOL
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 20:24

Originally posted by konstantinius

Are you seriously claiming that the US had nothing to do with the overthrow of Mossadegh?

 

No, I am saying that the overthrow had more to do with the UK and Mi-6, which it did!

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

Truman might've opposed it but  Dulles under Einsenhower didn't.

 

Yeah, so? Eisenhower approved the covert operation, but that was not the argument, the argument was that successive American governments have toppled democracies in the Middle East, promoted totalitarian regimes, instigated conflict. The fact that Truman opposed the overthrow of the Mossadegh regime is proof that this was not the case!

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

The plans for the overthrow came at the instigation of the Brits BUT were drafted and executed by the CIA under the direction of the Dulles bros. The operation was dubbed "Operation Ajax" and was put in effect by the CIA head in the region, no other but Kermit Roosevelt Jr., grandson of FDR. All this is common knowledge, not worth discussing. We even went over it along the same lines in my modern history class of last semester that covered the Cold War and US foreign policy during it. The instructor was a moderate conservative (McKane enthusiast) with a PhD in foreign relations, no "lefty" sympathizer, and his "perception' was very acute

You just answered your own question, buddy and thanks for validating my point! LOL

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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 20:28
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

Originally posted by Zaitsev

Grim Reaper, you might be thinking the right way, but you are fundamentally wrong.
 
Oh really? How is that?
 
Did I ever say that the US was right in attacking Iraq?? Well, did I??
 
I ONLY SAID THAT THE AMERICANS PERCEIVED THE ARAB WORLD AS A THREAT TO THEIR NATIONAL SECURITY FOLLOWING 9-11 AND IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE WHY THEY [AMERICANS] WOULD FEEL A NEED TO REVENGE AND PRE-EMPTIVELY ATTACK SADDAM-RULED IRAQ!
 
DID I EVER SAY IT WAS OKAY OR TRY TO JUSTIFY IT??? I ONLY SAID IT WAS AN UNDERSTANDABLE REACTION. IF YOU HIT ME IN THE FACE -WON'T I REACT BY HITTING YOU??
 
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Bush may be an absolute moron, but his advisers are at least intelligent enough to realise that  the whole Arab/Muslim/Anyone else who looks vaguely similar world is a threat.
 
I also stated that his advisors had their own agendas, however, there individual agendas overlapped at one place: Iraq.
 
Originally posted by Zaitsev

You also blame Osama/Saddam for everything, just because they're also muslim/arabic.
 
 
WHEN DID I BLAME OSAMA AND SADDAM FOR EVERYTHING "JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE MUSLIMS AND ARABS"?? I BLAMED THE INVASION OF IRAQ ON THE 9-11 ATTACKS PERPORTED BY OSAMA AND B/C OSAMA WAS ARAB AND MUSLIM AND HAD VERBALLY THREATENED AMERICA AND CARRIED OUT THOSE THREATS -THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WAS NATURALLY IN FEAR OF ANOTHER ARAB, ANOTHER MUSLIM ATTACKING THEM!!! I SAID IT WAS PERCEPTION! PERCEPTION! PERCEPTION!
 
Originally posted by Zaitsev

That is baloney! Would you accept responsibility for the crusades because you're of european decent (assumption)?
 
Of course it's baloney!
 
But, can't you see how a people would be in collective fear? Doesn't the Arab world hate America simply because the Jewish lobby bribes some politicians to support Israel? If you understand that -then why can't you understand why Americans would be in fear of Arabs who threatened them verbally, and bluffed about their WMD programs????Shocked



I don't understand your insistance on "perception", as if this is something objective and neutral, removed from human affairs. Perception of the public oppinion is MOLDED to a large extend by the "official" interpretations of  events , i.e. propaganda. The US goverment formed the perception of the US public in an ERRONEOUS direction either because they didn't really know OR  outright lied about it for reasons that serve a hidden agenda. The US goverment in my oppinion KNEW there are NO WMD's in Iraq and this HAS NOTHING to do with whether Saddam bluffed about it or not. Of course he's gonna bluff, and what, like we're supposed to buy it and then LIE to our own public about it? You consider this Saddam's fault? That makes it OK? We f**k up in our foreign policy because SOMEONE ELSE bluffed us on it? And we were so "bluffed" on this that we are CONTINUING the mess? It took an electoral loss for them to akwnoledge that all's not well in Iraq. Before it was all about "staying the course".
And the public is not dumb. Approval for Iraq was never as high as that of Afghanistan. Even during the initial "gun-ho" period immediately after 9/11, there was always a 30-35% of the public who were not convinced that Iraq is actually connected to 9/11. Today this is 60%. So "perception" even back in 2001 was not a set issue. 
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 20:34
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

Originally posted by konstantinius

Are you seriously claiming that the US had nothing to do with the overthrow of Mossadegh?

 

No, I am saying that the overthrow had more to do with the UK and Mi-6, which it did!



No,that'snot what you said on your previous post. You can't rephrase in mid-sentence.

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

Truman might've opposed it but  Dulles under Einsenhower didn't.

 

Yeah, so? Eisenhower approved the covert operation, but that was not the argument, the argument was that successive American governments have toppled democracies in the Middle East, promoted totalitarian regimes, instigated conflict. The fact that Truman opposed the overthrow of the Mossadegh regime is proof that this was not the case!


Yeah so, the argument is to mention one conflict in the M. East that the US had ACTUAL role in it. The CIA DID TOPPLE Mossadegh. What if Truman oppossed it? The next administration carried it out. You just contradicted yourself (again)

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

The plans for the overthrow came at the instigation of the Brits BUT were drafted and executed by the CIA under the direction of the Dulles bros. The operation was dubbed "Operation Ajax" and was put in effect by the CIA head in the region, no other but Kermit Roosevelt Jr., grandson of FDR. All this is common knowledge, not worth discussing. We even went over it along the same lines in my modern history class of last semester that covered the Cold War and US foreign policy during it. The instructor was a moderate conservative (McKane enthusiast) with a PhD in foreign relations, no "lefty" sympathizer, and his "perception' was very acute

You just answered your own question, buddy and thanks for validating my point! LOL



OK,I'm not sure what you mean or why you're "smiling"; I don't know how I'm validating your point, or what is my own question that I'm answering. But being happy in your own head is of course important; don't let me disturb your "perception"Wink


Edited by konstantinius - 13-Jan-2007 at 20:37
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 20:57

Originally posted by konstantinius

I don't understand your insistance on "perception", as if this is something objective and neutral, removed from human affairs. Perception of the public oppinion is MOLDED to a large extend by the "official" interpretations of  events , i.e. propaganda.

 

Following the attacks of 9-11, the American public was not coerced into believing any propoganda put forth by the US government, they readily accepted the fear that those attacks brought to their everyday lives, and the invasion of Iraq and bombing of Afghanistan were reactions to that fateful day. Why did the US never attack Iraq or Afghanistan before that? The US was even in talks with the Taliban for developing a pipeline through Afghanistan and possibly recognizing them as the legitimate rulers of Afghanistan until that fateful day.

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

The US goverment formed the perception of the US public in an ERRONEOUS direction either because they didn't really know OR  outright lied about it for reasons that serve a hidden agenda.

 

Some elements of the US government intentionly deceived the American public, other elements of the US government did not really know. Either way, this  viewpoint that you label as propoganda would never have had been possible without the attacks of 9-11 and the actions of bin Laden and his henchmen to declare unprovoked war against the US.

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

The US goverment in my oppinion KNEW there are NO WMD's in Iraq and this HAS NOTHING to do with whether Saddam bluffed about it or not.

 

How would the US government have known when the IAEA did not even know anything about this b/c Saddam kept kicking them out, then allowing them in only to kick them out again?

 

If the US knew, then why would it risk such embarrassment afterwards?

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

Of course he's gonna bluff, and what, like we're supposed to buy it and then LIE to our own public about it? You consider this Saddam's fault? That makes it OK?

 

He bluffed. He got called out on his bluff. He was not a very smart man. He should have been open like Muammar Qaddafi of Libya and let in the inspectors and admitted that he had no such weapons or designs on no such weapons. Why did he not do that? B/c he was a retard? He could have had the same deal that Libya and Qaddafi got, but he was a completely incompetent ruler and b/c of his fallacy, his bloated ego, all he got was a hanging!

 

If Saddam was not a threat to the US, then he should have come out in the open and said as much and acknowledged as much, but he did not, and the US was compelled to remove him from power so that no more 9-11s would occur.

 

Originally posted by konstantinius

We f**k up in our foreign policy because SOMEONE ELSE bluffed us on it? And we were so "bluffed" on this that we are CONTINUING the mess? It took an electoral loss for them to akwnoledge that all's not well in Iraq. Before it was all about "staying the course".
And the public is not dumb. Approval for Iraq was never as high as that of Afghanistan. Even during the initial "gun-ho" period immediately after 9/11, there was always a 30-35% of the public who were not convinced that Iraq is actually connected to 9/11. Today this is 60%. So "perception" even back in 2001 was not a set issue. 

 

Perception can change. Perception is changing. As the years since 9-11 go by, Arab-American experience less discrimination, and there is some sympathy for the Palestinians certainly a lot more now than there was immediately following 9-11.

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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 21:12
Grim Reaper although I agree with some of you points you are mistaken about others. Saddam had nothing to do with 9-11 so stop playing that card. That is just propaganda that the Bush Administration tried (somewhat successfully at that) to sell to the American Public. Did we see him as a threat? Yeah you could say that. Was he a retard? No he was not actually he was a fairly astute politician playing the UN and USA off of each other. He also was able to establish himself as a leader in that region, by leader I don't mean just of a country but rather one of the powerbrokers of the Middle East. I agree that when you bluff you can't go crying to the world when you get called on the bluff. People should be interested in the American point of view but Reaper don't be so dismissive of other p.o.v's. I too am an American but clearly I think you are mistaken about certain things, so you see I understand the American p.o.v but I respectfully disagree with what you are saying
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  Quote The Grim Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 21:44
King John,
 
I never stated that Saddam had anything to do with 9-11. Very early on in my posts, I stated that he did not.
 
My entire argument rests on the notion that Americans reacted to the acts of 9-11 against what they perceived as another hostile Arab threat originating from the Middle East and that was why the general public was so quick to support Bush's invasion.
 
I do not support the occupation of Iraq, never have and never will. We went to war on false pretenses, and I would like to see an end to the suffering that we have inflicted upon the Iraqi people. I would like to see the occupation to end so the Iraqis do not have to feel like second-class citizens in their own homeland.
 
But now, this persective is changing, and I hope it continues to change to where we can end this occupation, end the occupation of Palestine, and be seen as a respected and neutral entity in the region.


Edited by The Grim Reaper - 13-Jan-2007 at 21:45
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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2007 at 22:25
Originally posted by The Grim Reaper

If Saddam was not a threat to the US, then he should have come out in the open and said as much and acknowledged as much, but he did not, and the US was compelled to remove him from power so that no more 9-11s would occur.



Reaper, people reading this statement can easily read/assume that you are correlating Saddam with 9-11. This statement clearly shows that if anything you are ambiguous with you meaning. The notion that "the US was compelled to remove him (Saddam) from power so that no more 9-11's would occur" clearly shows that you are Saddam was in some way at fault for 9/11.

I was not responding to your previous posts I was responding to one in particular. The post that I was responding to as quoted above clearly shows that you are equating two things that don't warrant equation. So you may say that you never said Saddam had anything to do with 9/11 but as your own post shows (see quote above) you have implied - maybe doing so because of ambiguity or for other reasons not known to me - that Saddam had something to do with 9/11.

I also don't know what you are talking about. The general public never really embraced the war in Iraq it was questioned from the beginning. There were protests all over NYC and other major centers against the war. DOes this show "general public acceptance?" I think not. Your argument about preception is fatally flawed. When you speak of perception are you talking of the perception of the "madding crowd" or are you talking about the perception of the Administration? The two are very different. The "madding crowd"/general public didn't perceive Saddam as a threat that was the Administration. Also if you are going to argue that a perceived Arab threat coming from the M.E. was the reason that the USA invaded Iraq then you are also arguing that the source of that perception was the reason to invade Iraq. Example: After 9/11 the perception of Islamists in America evolved from obscurity to that of a threat. This is the reason the US went into Afghanistan. Then a few years later when discussions arose about Iraq, to play on this perception is to equate Iraq with 9/11 the source of this perception. So infact your own argument can be construed to argue that Saddam had something to do with 9/11.

Edited by King John - 13-Jan-2007 at 22:39
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