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    Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 13:30
Originally posted by pinguin

Really?
 
I can't believe it.
 
I believe Western Media blind us to reality, indeed.
 
The only thing we see are Afgan women with Gurkas and Palestinean women that look like the Virgen Mary or a Catholic nun LOL
 
 
And of course here in the United States as well, a lot of muslims don't come in the typical stereotypical stanuchly conservative package either, a lot of Persians, Palestinians, Bosnians, etc... go to the beach in the same way that almost everyone else does.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 13:31
It comes from the fact that, there is a singular stereotype of the typical muslim/ muslima, and anyone that does not look like that pretty much is looked over, and usually not thought off as a muslim so what you get is people missing out on a huge variety of customs, dress types...
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  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 17:46
Originally posted by bg_turk



Originally posted by morticia

Well, Top Gun, the customs of cultures must always be respected. We (Westerners) look at a burka as something hot,uncomfortable, and as a punishment to women, but they don't see it like that. It's been their custom for centuries and all they are doing is maintaing their culture. Physical abuse is another matter, though...that causes bodily and mental pain and suffering and should be reformed somehow and at some point. They will evolve at their own time and pace, hopefully.
I despise women wearing a headscarf as I am staunchly secular, but I think you are correct. Most women do not feel compelled in any way shape or form the wear the headscarf, they do it out of their own choosing. I think this song captures very accurate the reasons why so many Muslims are wearing the scarf:http://youtube.com/watch?v=58jpmpT_wco



Hello Bg Turk

I am not sure about this, in Iran, for example, a very high level of modesty in women's clothes is strictly enforced by the "morality police".

We have no proof that Iranian women want to abide by these rules, and I have heard otherwise from trustworthy sources.

I have great respect for the Qur'an and the Islamic religion but the entire covering of the face and body is not mandatory, as I have learned from my Muslim friends.

- Zheng-ru

Edited by Zheng-ru - 13-Feb-2007 at 17:48
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 14:37
Originally posted by Zheng-ru


Hello Bg Turk

I am not sure about this, in Iran, for example, a very high level of modesty in women's clothes is strictly enforced by the "morality police".

We have no proof that Iranian women want to abide by these rules, and I have heard otherwise from trustworthy sources.

I have great respect for the Qur'an and the Islamic religion but the entire covering of the face and body is not mandatory, as I have learned from my Muslim friends.

- Zheng-ru


There is actually a "morality police" looking out for what women wear?
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 19:58
Yes. The morlity police also looks for young girls and young men, if they hold their hands, As i was last time in Iran i was walking with my sister on the street as a policeman stopped us and asked for our IDs. We had to prove we are sister and brother and not lovers.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 10:50
Originally posted by Maziar

Yes. The morlity police also looks for young girls and young men, if they hold their hands, As i was last time in Iran i was walking with my sister on the street as a policeman stopped us and asked for our IDs. We had to prove we are sister and brother and not lovers.


WOW, Maziar, that must have been humiliating! What happens if you can't prove that you are both siblings? Imprisonment?
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 16:44
Originally posted by morticia

Originally posted by Maziar

Yes. The morlity police also looks for young girls and young men, if they hold their hands, As i was last time in Iran i was walking with my sister on the street as a policeman stopped us and asked for our IDs. We had to prove we are sister and brother and not lovers.


WOW, Maziar, that must have been humiliating! What happens if you can't prove that you are both siblings? Imprisonment?
 
Not really, they would find us and call our parents to come and undersign that they would never let their children do such "crimes" again.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 00:01
They have a morality police who pretty much go beserk in Saudi Arabia too, your only insurance against it is having connections with the royal family.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 14:36
Originally posted by Constantine XI

They have a morality police who pretty much go beserk in Saudi Arabia
too, your only insurance against it is having connections with the
royal family.


Yes, this I've heard of. I've been told women can do very little in Saudi Arabia unless there is a royal connection. Women are not allowed to drive, go to university, or even leave the country without the proper consent from the husband/father. WOW, I can't even begin to imagine living under those conditions.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 14:37

Yes, this I've heard of. I've been told women can do very little in Saudi Arabia unless there is a royal connection. Women are not allowed to drive, go to university, or even leave the country without the proper consent from the husband/father. WOW, I can't even begin to imagine living under those conditions.
 
 
i dont think the women out there (KSA) are prevented from having good education for themselves. But most of them choose to be full time housewife after they complete their studies.. cos their husbands.. just damn rich.. able to provide to support their family without for the wives to work.. maybe some yes and some not..
Asking permission frm ur guardiance either parents or husband is not a wrong thing. It's a respect for them. not only in religious reason but also in Asian custom.
Only it's wrong when the parents or the husband take the privilege they have for their own interest as an excuse to get their way... tht's not right at all.
About the driving... unfortunately to say.. i also cant live in KSA.. coz i use to drive here and there... on my own.. lol... but if a driver is provided to bring u anywhere u want to... why not?... Wink
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 20:24
Originally posted by morticia

Originally posted by Zagros

Originally posted by Sparten

Eh? Nice theory, but the veil was something adopted later from the Persians.


The headscarves were a part of the greater middle eastern tradition, but what was exclusively BEDOUIN is the covering of the face.


Zagros, why is that? What is the reason they must cover the entire face? Do you know? Constantine mentioned a reason above, but he didn't seem sure of it!

So the sand doesn't get into your mouth and nose. Lets think of practicalites here. Although I'm pretty sure that Perians (at least Iraqis) and Romans (syrians/egyptians) were using the full covering before the Arab conquest too.
(Why wouldn't they be, its not like they aren't neighbours)
Originally posted by pingiun

Palestinean women that look like the Virgen Mary

Not surprising really. Given where Mary lived

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 18-Feb-2007 at 20:27
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  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 09:53

I've gota question for a believing muslim living in the countries where they have such "morality police" and all the restrictions,for the wemen especialy-do you think all those things are normal(like police wathcing out who is holding who'se hands and kising) and good,and what do you thing of the western laws allowing the same rights for both man and wemen and not having such "morality polices"?

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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 10:31
Originally posted by cahaya


Yes, this I've heard of. I've been told women can do very little in Saudi Arabia unless there is a royal connection. Women are not allowed to drive, go to university, or even leave the country without the proper consent from the husband/father. WOW, I can't even begin to imagine living under those conditions.




i dont think the women out there (KSA) are prevented from having good education for themselves. But most of them choose to be full time housewife after they complete their studies.. cos their husbands.. just damn rich.. able to provide to support their family without for the wives to work.. maybe some yes and some not..

Asking permission frm ur guardiance either parents or husband is not a wrong thing. It's a respect for them. not only in religious reason but also in Asian custom.

Only it's wrong when the parents or the husband take the privilege they have for their own interest as an excuse to get their way... tht's not right at all.

About the driving... unfortunately to say.. i also cant live in KSA.. coz i use to drive here and there... on my own.. lol... but if a driver is provided to bring u anywhere u want to... why not?... Wink


Yes, Cahaya, there is lots of money in Saudi Arabia (must be from all that oil) . However, those women live in gilded cages with no basic freedom of expression, speech, or driving privileges. I'd rather be poor, but FREE to pursue my happiness in my own way, not how I'm told to!
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  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 22:30
I think the idea of "practicalities" is ridiculous; someone correct me if I am wrong, but is there dust flying about everywhere in Middle Eastern countries!?



Edited by Zheng-ru - 20-Feb-2007 at 21:10
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 19:56
And I think the idea of "practicalities" is ridiculous; someone correct me if I am wrong, but is there dust flying about everywhere in Middle Eastern countries!?

For a beduin in a sandy desert. Of course there is!! Even where I live we get dust storms occasionally.
However, those women live in gilded cages with no basic freedom of expression, speech, or driving privileges. I'd rather be poor, but FREE to pursue my happiness in my own way, not how I'm told to!

I don't think womens freedom of expression or speech is limited any more than a mans is.
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  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 21:26
But we are not talking about sandy deserts! Tehran is a city with buildings, for example.

And how do you know that women's freedom of expression is the equal to that of men's in countries like Iran?
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 02:09
I wasn't talking about Tehran, I was answering Mortys question about the Bedouin.

How do you know womens freedom of expression isn't equal to a mans? I doesn't make sense stopping a woman saying something but allowing her brother to. And we were talking about Saudi Arabia, not Iran. Women can drive as much as they want in Iran.
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  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 08:18
Omar al Hashim,with all my respuct but i think you are trying to say that women in all the arabic countries are as free as those in the christian countries?It is more than obvious for anyone with a tv,reading newspapers ot at least magazines,that in some arabic countries women are more than slaves to their man,fathers and brothers.In such countries women are treated not like humans,but like something that cleans,cooks and makes children.This kind of clothing(exept for the places where there really are a lot of sand storms) is allso a kind of slavery.If they were free they would choose to wear what ever they want like in the normal countries.And if they really wear those clothes because of the sand,why the man don't wear them too?I've seen women that you could see only their eyes and next to them man dressed absolutely normaly.
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  Quote Zheng-ru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 21:40
I agree with you, Jagiello.

Omar al Hashim, I did not know that we were talking about Saudi Arabia only, perhaps I missed something...

And you answered my question with a question, so I will answer yours then hope for your answer. I have found organizations that speak of women's oppression (in terms of their lack of relative freedom) in Iran. I cannot rely on the media for my sources, unless I refer to Al-Jazeera.

Respectfully,

Zheng-ru


Edited by Zheng-ru - 24-Feb-2007 at 22:06
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
- Sun-tzu
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 22:11
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I wasn't talking about Tehran, I was answering Mortys question about the Bedouin.

How do you know womens freedom of expression isn't equal to a mans? I doesn't make sense stopping a woman saying something but allowing her brother to. And we were talking about Saudi Arabia, not Iran. Women can drive as much as they want in Iran.
 
Fear puts every women in the line, Omar al Hashim. There's no denying to this. Through the actual scenes and Western propaganda, I think there are now plenty of Middle Eastern women who suffered greatly due to their lack of rights.
     
   
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