QuoteReplyTopic: Muslim/Islamic Women Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 01:11
Lets get a few things straight, primary source is middle eastern women. No intermediatry organisations. My primary source of comparision is by direct observation of both Arab and non Arab families. (My extended family itself comprises of both Arab, Pakistani and Anglo-Celtic units)
1) Saudi Arabia does have womens rights issues, no denying this. It has lots of other issues too
2) With regards to freedom of expression/speech in any country. Logically, what is the point of stopping one sex from saying something (eg critising the dictator), while allowing the other one to?
3) Exactly which right, in law, is it that a Lebanese, Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian, Turkish, Iraqi or Irani woman doesn't have that a man in that country does have? (List each country seperately)
4) Exactly which social status is unique to arab or irani women? It has to be something that is not in common with a Malay, Chinese, Indian, English etc etc woman.
5) Are you aware that a little over 60 years ago, the west used to critise the middle east for giving women too many rights?
I simply have one question and want an answer with yes or no -Please,tell me Omar al Hashim,do you think that women in muslim countries have the same rights as the man?
Lets get a few things straight, primary source is middle eastern women. No intermediatry organisations. My primary source of comparision is by direct observation of both Arab and non Arab families. (My extended family itself comprises of both Arab, Pakistani and Anglo-Celtic units)1) Saudi Arabia does have womens rights issues, no denying this. It has lots of other issues too2) With regards to freedom of expression/speech in any country. Logically, what is the point of stopping one sex from saying something (eg critising the dictator), while allowing the other one to?3) Exactly which right, in law, is it that a Lebanese, Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian, Turkish, Iraqi or Irani woman doesn't have that a man in that country does have? (List each country seperately)4) Exactly which social status is unique to arab or irani women? It has to be something that is not in common with a Malay, Chinese, Indian, English etc etc woman.5) Are you aware that a little over 60 years ago, the west used to critise the middle east for giving women too many rights?
Basically you are telling me that your observations and/or contact with Arab families gives you the impression that women have equal rights in most predominantly Muslim countries? That is the extent of evidence you have?
And sure, every country has issues.
The point of limiting the freedoms of women is to allow men to have greater freedom, or rather greater power, in government, for example. Sometimes, you will notice, the interests of men are different from those of women, correct?
Furthermore, I cannot speak for all countries that you listed, but I can say that articles 18 (of Passport Law), 21 (of Iran's Constitution), 83 (of Penal Code), 102, 115, 162, 167, 209 (of Iran's Constitution), 300 (Penal Code) of Iranian Law limit the freedoms of women. Article 18, for example, requires that married women need their husband's permission to apply for passports. Do you consider that a social status that is not unique!?
Do you know who Shirin Ebadi is?
And last, I am not concerned with social status 60 years ago in this conversation (however please understand that
I do believe that it is prudent to learn from the past, especially from social advancements and injustices).
- Zheng-ru
Edited by Zheng-ru - 25-Feb-2007 at 20:18
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
- Sun-tzu
Turkey accepted the european laws entirely, which means there's no difference between Turkey and the european countries on paper. Practically there're many troubles though, due to awful middle eastern traditions of the eastern Turkey which have to be destroyed. The rest of the middle east is worse so far. Even Syria, which is supposed to be "secular" country, has many problems in terms of women rights. A man is officially allowed to get married to four women, for instance. There're many other awful examples even in the most westernized arabic countries.
Shortly, the Middle east needs a serious reformation regarding the human rights which includes women rights.
Actually Turkey enforced woman's rights prior to many European countries on its own accord.
In the West unfortunately we've moved from a feminist era towards female exploitation, woman are treated by the popular media as superficial, materialistic sex objects. Were told to admire a woman solely because of her "looks", if she doesnt conform to the right size, figure, complexion she's discarded. It's percieved as fine for older men to marry young eye candy but an old woman doing the same is looked down upon. Moral's are being disintegrated, the family unit is weakening, social problems are on the increase as a result.
The middle east is no "haven" for woman but the West isn't heaven on Earth either.
Personally I think society, government and the media have a responsibility to push the importance of family life, morality, looking beyond just looks and age. Today the break-down of family structure is having terrible consequences.
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
The middle east is no "haven" for woman but the West isn't heaven on Earth either.
Nothing in life is perfect, but women in the West are afforded a better level of comfort, security, and, most importantly, FREEDOM and independence to be who they want to be and not who they are "supposed" to and/or "forced" to be.
Originally posted by bULLDOG
Personally I think society, government and the media have a responsibility to push the importance of family life, morality, looking beyond just looks and age. Today the break-down of family structure is having terrible consequences.
Teachings of stable family life, morality, looking beyond physical appearance, etc. should all commence at HOME! In a modern society where just about everything is either embellished or sensationalized, I fail to see how society, government or media can be held accountably responsible for preaching morality, etc. Besides, who listens to all those wannabees, anyway? Not I!
Edited by morticia - 26-Feb-2007 at 13:55
"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
Furthermore, I cannot speak for all countries that you listed, but I can say that articles 18 (of Passport Law), 21 (of Iran's Constitution), 83 (of Penal Code), 102, 115, 162, 167, 209 (of Iran's Constitution), 300 (Penal Code) of Iranian Law limit the freedoms of women. Article 18, for example, requires that married women need their husband's permission to apply for passports. Do you consider that a social status that is not unique!?
So if you cannot speak for all the countries I listed, your guilty of spreading misinformation. If you don't know about the law in most middle eastern countries you cannot say that women don't have equal rights, and even less can you make a judgement based on a country's predominant religion. Essentially you don't know what your talking about, your just repeating age old propaganda.
Basically you are telling me that your observations and/or contact with Arab families gives you the impression that women have equal rights in most predominantly Muslim countries? That is the extent of evidence you have?
I've lived in a muslim country, and I mix with people who have lived in several other muslim countries as well. Have you? If I can't judge a countries human rights by direct experience, then there is no way anyone who hasn't had any experience of them can.
Even Syria, which is supposed to be "secular" country, has many problems in terms of women rights. A man is officially allowed to get married to four women, for instance.
How is that anti-woman? In Syria I know a man has to get his wifes permission before taking another wife and the woman always has the right to divorce. In the west, people get around monogamy by having affairs.
Originally posted by morty
Nothing in life is perfect, but women in the West are afforded a better level of comfort, security, and, most importantly, FREEDOM and independence to be who they want to be and not who they are "supposed" to and/or "forced" to be.
I thought I made it clear that I was using only Iran as an example. I provided correct information regarding Iran. Therefore if you say that I am guilty of misinformation, then you are accusing me of lying. I looked up those laws I listed (as evidence), apparently, you cannot speak for all those countries either.
Furthermore, if I know the law in one Middle Eastern country, and it says that women are not equal, and you know the laws in other Middle Eastern countries, and they say that women are equal, then is it not clear that women are not entirely equal in the Middle East?
Why would I use propaganda? You further insult my intelligence! I am here to debate and arrive at the truth. Why are you here?
Of course I have to make a judgement based on a country's religion since it is this religion that is defining the law; it is the primary source of law.
I have spoken to Muslims, as I have mentioned before. No, I have not lived in a predominantly Muslim country. Have you lived in Iran?
By the way, Shirin Ebadi is a social activist.
But The Hidden Face is right, we shouldn't push this. So if my information is incorrect, then please enlighten me, and tell me what is correct, and what your proof is.
Zheng-ru
Edited by Zheng-ru - 27-Feb-2007 at 03:17
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
- Sun-tzu
Nothing in life is perfect, but women in the West are afforded a better level of comfort, security, and, most importantly, FREEDOM and independence to be who they want to be and not who they are "supposed" to and/or "forced" to be.
Really? it's a matter of perception, there are some muslim woman who believe they have more Freedom.
Morticia
Teachings of stable family life, morality, looking beyond physical appearance, etc. should all commence at HOME!
I agree but the family is not being promoted, if there is no family there is no social structure to bring up children and educate from the home.
Morticia
In a modern society where just about everything is either embellished or sensationalized, I fail to see how society, government or media can be held accountably responsible for preaching morality, etc. Besides, who listens to all those wannabees, anyway? Not I!
Media has a huge influence on society. There are less and less families, the media take's the role of influences young impressionable minds.
In my class a few other kids and me were like the odd one's out for having a family, this is a serious issue that has to be addressed.
Zheng
Why would I use propaganda? You further insult my intelligence! I am here to debate and arrive at the truth. Why are you here?
What is truth? when discussing such matters there is no "truth", some will agree, some won't.
Try presenting a more structured argument instead of looking into the matter as if it were a mathmatical equation.
There are some countries in Christian countries in Africa with a poor record of human rights against woman, does this mean all Christians are the same? ofcourse not.
Edited by Bulldog - 27-Feb-2007 at 16:15
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
There are some countries in Christian countries in Africa with a poor record of human rights against woman, does this mean all Christians are the same? ofcourse not.
Kardes thank you for bringing this up. somehow everyone seems to not notice this point.
Sometimes, truth can be objective. E.g., there either are or are not laws that limit women's freedoms. If you wish to start another thread discussing what truth is, I would be happy to give you my insight.
I think you need to present a structured argument (I recommend Aristotle's Posterior Analytics). What do your words have to do with this thread's topic? I was debating and also providing evidence. This is about whether women are equal to men in Middle Eastern countries. And I never said the answer was yes or no.
And please try to remember that it was not I who initially put all the countries under one category. As I mentioned above, I was using Iran as an example.
Zheng-ru
Edited by Zheng-ru - 28-Feb-2007 at 22:39
"The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting."
- Sun-tzu
What actually the muslim women issueS that u guys had came accross?
Hi Cahaya! We are discussing Muslim women's rights. Some feel that Muslim women have the same rights as men and others don't. I mentioned that I thought western women were afforded more opportunities and rights than in the east, but others disagreed and said that Muslim women are satisfied with their ways. You are Muslim, Cahaya. What can you tell us about the rights of women in Eastern culture as opposed to women in Western culture?
"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
(This is a satire written to
mimic articles, reports and stories generally written about Muslim women
by women from Western non-Muslim backgrounds. It is, to some extent,
an attempt to convey to the readers how it feels to be othered
and to be judged superficially in accordance with only ones own perceptions.
I hope you take it for what it is - a satire.)
I do not clearly remember the
first time I was here. My earliest memories of Australia start when
I was around six or seven, probably my first trip after I was born in
the city of Sydney. My parents were not particularly happy with the
idea of me growing up there. So, they took me out to Iran at the first
opportunity.
As I grew up, my impressions
of Sydney were formed from stories I heard from my parents, shows I
watched on television and of course, what I saw on my trips. From my
first trip at the age of seven, I vaguely remember the people I met
and the places I visited. I remember more from my second trip, though,
which was at the age of fourteen. I recall my parents warning me over
and over again about how women were treated in a society so fundamentally
Western.
While I was there, I learnt
that individuality was something Australians only dreamt about. I soon
discovered I had to conform to the dress code everyone else followed.
I had to have my hair highlighted and defrizzed. I had to spend between
fifteen ad twenty minutes every morning brushing it and putting on clips
and hair ties. I had to make it into a ponytail one day, a braid the
next and a bun when I went to dinner parties. I was coerced to wear
short skirts and tight tops, with a push-up bra to give me cleavage.
My legs had to show, smooth and unscarred, and everyone had to be able
to make out my waist.
They told me I had to fit
in. Part of the ritual of fitting in meant that I had to paint my
face with what they called make-up everyday. I discovered that Australian
females liked to attract as much attention as they could to themselves,
by hiding behind their make-up. They made their kohl in liquids and
pencils, instead of pots like we do, and sold them in stores under a
range of different names and prices. They all seemed the same to me,
though. Anyhow, I bought what they told me to buy and used what they
told me to use, from lipsticks to abdominizers, changing my body from
head to toe to please their male gods. Such things ensured that everyone
wanted to hang out with me (a term denoting something to the effect
of spending time and/or social acceptance).
In the five years between then
and now, I had convinced myself that Australia would have joined other
countries on the road to progress. But my return to Sydney both shocks
and saddens me. While many parts of the world have seen development,
Australia has dragged behind, especially with regards to the status
of women. It seems as if it has only succeeded in digging itself deeper
into a bottomless pit of regression. At this rate, I fear that Australia
is a second America in the making.
Upon arrival, I have come across
some typical Sydney women. I can see that they are dictated by the strict
dress code imposed on them by the social system. They are not allowed
to wear loose clothing, headscarves until they are old or ailing, and
it is preferred that they show as much of their bodies as possible.
Women who break this rule face harsh penalties. Sarah, a victim of such
injustices, told me the specifics. As punishment for wearing non-revealing
clothing, she is deemed unattractive and given unequal treatment by
her employers. She says she is not considered normal.
A day in the life of a normal
woman here requires her appearance to be the focal point. Her sexuality
must be available for everyone to consume. She cannot choose to whom
she will disclose her intimate parts or exercise her sexuality. She
does not have much choice in what she wants to do with her body. Since
the fundamentalist regime insists that it must be available for display
in a certain manner, she must follow these rules.
The rules are based on the
Australian Holy Scriptures, two of which are Dolly and Cosmopolitan.
Also known as magazines, these contain the teachings of hard-liner editors
and reporters/writers who design the way in which society must view
women and the way women must dress and act. Since the advent of these
magazines, there have been mass conversions in the country to the faith
they preach. Authority and control have been transferred onto them and
they play a vital role in the life of women. They have institutionalised
radical guidelines such as the 36:24:36 measurement of a womans body.
Furthermore, they propagate intolerance and hate to be internalised
in all women - hate for their own bodies, natural intelligence, privacy
and inherent dignity. These women are brainwashed into believing that
their Creator is to blame for their deficiencies in not automatically
meeting these standards.
In accordance with these oppressive
impositions, the countrys commerce has developed. Industry is devoted
to the development of products to assist women in looking as artificial
as possible. The market is filled with products for the face and every
different part of it plus the hair, the hands, the legs, the nails...the
list goes on. I suppose one must concede to the fact that Australias
delayed development causes it to prioritise looks over the fact that
millions of people in the world go hungry.
It is interesting to look at
some of the advertisements for the beauty products. I will warn you,
though, that coming from an emancipated society, these will be very
disturbing. For instance, an advertisement for hair colour uses the
motto "LOreal - because Im worth it". A model in an
ad for a shampoo claims that using the shampoo gives her more confidence.
These poor women must shampoo, condition and colour their hair in order
to legitimise themselves. They need the perfect curl, the right bounce
and the shiniest colour. Their value to society is directly linked to
their hair.
Other significant practices
are the prevalent marriage customs. A woman is required to perform the
ceremonial going out, which can span any period of time from a
day to ten years. This starts as early as primary school and as she
grows up, she goes out with various men. Until she finds the one she
wishes to marry, she does not commit to any one man. All the men she
goes out with are allowed to touch her and sleep with her.
All this time, her status and
acceptance in society is determined by how many of these men she has
accommodated in her life. The greater the quota of men, the more sufficient
she is considered. Particularly in high school, young girls have little
to contribute to their own identities. Their identities derive from
who they go out with and how many boys they go out with. Though this
kind of mental torture is less obvious in later years of their life,
my conversations with many women in university and work indicate that
they still suffer. Some feel they must get married in order to make
a place for themselves.
Marriage, though, is subject
to a bizarre rule. A woman cannot legally marry until she is eighteen
years old without parental consent. It is socially expected, however,
for girls under eighteen to lose their virginity. When I was listening
to one of the popular radio stations, 2DayFM, I was informed that the
average age that Australians lost their virginity at is between thirteen
and fifteen. As a consequence of this, many girls under eighteen become
pregnant. Society accepts these girls as mothers before eighteen but
does not allow them to have husbands, who could also take responsibility
as fathers to the children born. While women must bear the responsibility
of parenthood, men can get away with it. This is one of the many contradictions
that exist in Australia today.
Inequalities also exist for
women who do get married. Marriage requires the woman to play multiple
roles. She must be wife, mother and often a breadwinner of the family.
She shoulders the responsibility of taking care of her husband and children
at home while also earning money not only for herself, but also for
the family. Whatever she earns is not solely her property. Unlike Islamic
societies, her husband and her family have a claim to her income and
she even pays for groceries!
Often, she is not given the
choice of whether she wants to stay at home or work. The society she
lives in enshrines materiality and money, money and more money. It is
vital to their lifestyles. As a result, she must go out and work and
make her family richer. On top of that, her position in society is judged
on her ability to work outside the home. She must suffer the greatest
burden in society. She really does not have the right to choose. Can
you imagine a life where your identity is judged by everything you have
and not everything you are?
Even more surprising is the
widespread cultural practice of women changing their surnames to that
of their husbands once they are married. Amanda, a law student, who
opposes this practice, tells me that, in previous times, this act symbolised
the transfer of all of a womans rights and property to her husband
from her father. Though the custom of a woman becoming her husbands
property has ceased to exist, women still change their names to that
of their husbands.
Seeing all this, I am aware
that Australian women are denied the rights that are basic to any Muslim
woman. What concerns me, though, is whether or not they are aware of
that fact.
I remember from my second trip
to Australia that I felt I had a Western noose tied around my neck.
I felt I had no space to breathe or to let myself free. The air around
me cloaked my beauty, my spirit and my soul. But I was lucky. I could
leave.
Most of the Australian women
I spoke to do not have that alternative. They do not even know of their
plight. They are pushed into a corner where they cannot see outside
the boundaries of such a fundamentally Western society. Women immune
to Western correctness - mostly the educated Muslims - have begun programmes
to educate others around them. They are asserting themselves by breaking
out of the confinement, wearing loose clothing and denying just anyone
access to their sexuality. I see their efforts as a glimmer of hope.
It is crucial that before women can improve their lot, they are taught
the rights they have that society has taken away from them.
Nevertheless, there is still
hope. I call upon all the Muslim women in the world to come to the rescue
of Australian women. I urge that all of us stand up against Western
oppression in different parts of the world. It is our responsibility
to bring progress into these societies and it is up to us to save them.
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