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Libby to go to jail

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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Libby to go to jail
    Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 19:07
Scooter Libby was given a 2 1/2 year jail sentence for his role in the Valerie Plame affair.
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 20:17
Should be Cheney in Gaol
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 22:26
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Should be Cheney in Gaol
 
Yup!
 
And there's already talk about Bush giving Libby a pardon, I guess if you work for the right people you can do pretty much what you want in America now.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 08:58
Originally posted by DukeC

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Should be Cheney in Gaol
 
Yup!
 
And there's already talk about Bush giving Libby a pardon, I guess if you work for the right people you can do pretty much what you want in America now.
 
Scooter Libby getting a pardon would only prolong coverage of this.  He was not the chief executive of the government as Nixon had been.
 
With the resolution of the judicial phase of this case, watch how quickly the Press moves on to some other hot button.  Sh*t happened; Libby took the fall (his family will be taken care of covertly, and he will too down the line); case closed, and the story goes into the archives.
 
When these things blow up, someone has to take the fall, and it ain't gonna be Cheney or the ultimate bete noir, Karl Rove.  Wink
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 06-Jun-2007 at 08:59
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 09:31
I note from the papers that Libby was given a character reference by Wolfowitz.
 
So he must be alright then.
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 12:00
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

 
Scooter Libby getting a pardon would only prolong coverage of this.  He was not the chief executive of the government as Nixon had been.
 
With the resolution of the judicial phase of this case, watch how quickly the Press moves on to some other hot button.  Sh*t happened; Libby took the fall (his family will be taken care of covertly, and he will too down the line); case closed, and the story goes into the archives.
 
When these things blow up, someone has to take the fall, and it ain't gonna be Cheney or the ultimate bete noir, Karl Rove.  Wink
 
Bush has gotten away with so much already, he's the political version of the Teflon Don. As soon as the medias lights are pointing on something else, he'll give Libby a nice quiet pardon and it will barely make a blip on the scope.
 
 


Edited by DukeC - 06-Jun-2007 at 12:01
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  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 12:24
Yup and tho all the below didnt get or necessarily need pardons they demonstrated just as aptly their penchent for corruption eh Duke? IOW  your ability to single out 'Bushies' is matched.Wink
 
And lets not forget the latest democratic additon to the hall of fame of thieves, liars and frauds.Clown
 

La. Congressman Indicted on Host of Corruption Charges

 
 
---
 

William Jefferson Clinton- Impeached by the House of Representatives over allegations of perjury and obstruction of justice, but acquitted by the Senate. Scandals include Whitewater - Travelgate Gennifer Flowersgate - Filegate - Vince Fostergate - Whitewater Billing Recordsgate - Paula Jonesgate- Lincoln Bedroomgate - Donations from Convicted Drug and Weapons Dealersgate - Lippogate - Chinagate - The Lewinsky Affair - Perjury and Jobs for Lewinskygate - Kathleen Willeygate - Web Hubbell Prison Phone Callgate - Selling Military Technology to the Chinesegate - Jaunita Broaddrick Gate - Lootergate - Pardongate

Edward Moore Kennedy - Democrat - U. S. Senator from Massachusetts. Pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident, after his car plunged off a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island killing passenger Mary Jo Kopechne.

Barney Frank - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1981 to present. Admitted to having paid Stephen L. Gobie, a male prostitute, for sex and subsequently hiring Gobie as his personal assistant. Gobie used the congressman's Washington apartment for prostitution. A move to expel Frank from the House of Representatives failed and a motion to censure him failed.

DNC - The Federal Election Commission imposed $719,000 in fines against participants in the 1996 Democratic Party fundraising scandals involving contributions from China, Korea and other foreign sources. The Federal Election Commission said it decided to drop cases against contributors of more than $3 million in illegal DNC contributions because the respondents left the country or the corporations are defunct.

Sandy Berger - Democrat - National Security Advisor during the Clinton Administration. Berger became the focus of a criminal investigation after removing highly classified terrorism documents and handwritten notes from the National Archives during preparations for the Sept. 11 commission hearings.

Robert Torricelli - Democrat - Withdrew from the 2002 Senate race with less than 30 days before the election because of controversy over personal gifts he took from a major campaign donor and questions about campaign donations from 1996.

James McGreevey - Democrat - New Jersey Governor . Admitted to having a gay affair. Resigned after allegations of sexual harassment, rumors of being blackmailed on top of fundraising investigations and indictments.

Jesse Jackson - Democrat - Democratic candidate for President. Admitted to having an extramarital affair and fathering a illegitimate child.

Gary Condit - Democrat - US Democratic Congressman from California. Condit had an affair with an intern. Condit, covered up the affair and lied to police after she went missing. No charges were ever filed against Condit. Her remains were discovered in a Washington DC park..

Sowande Ajumoke Omokunde - Democrat - the son of newly elected U.S. Rep. Gwen Moore, was booked on charges of criminal damage to property for allegedly slashing tires on 20 vans and cars rented by the Republican Party for use in Election Day voter turnout efforts.

Daniel David Rostenkowski - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Illinois from 1959 to 1995. Indicted on 17 felony charges- pleaded guilty to two counts of misuse of public funds and sentenced to seventeen months in federal prison.

Melvin Jay Reynolds - U.S. Representative from Illinois from 1993 to 1995. Convicted on sexual misconduct and obstruction of justice charges and sentenced to five years in prison.

Charles Coles Diggs, Jr. - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Michigan from 1955 to 1980. Convicted on eleven counts of mail fraud and filing false payroll forms- sentenced to three years in prison.

George Rogers - Democrat - Massachusetts State House of Representatives from 1965 to 1970. M000ember of Massachusetts State Senate from 1975 to 1978. Convicted of bribery in 1978 and sentenced to two years in prison.

Don Siegelman - Democrat Governor Alabama - indicted in a bid-rigging scheme involving a maternity-care program. The charges accused Siegelman and his former chief of staff of helping Tuscaloosa physician Phillip Bobo rig bids. Siegelman was accused of moving $550,000 from the state education budget to the State Fire College in Tuscaloosa so Bobo could use the money to pay off a competitor for a state contract for maternity care.

John Murtha, Jr. - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania. Implicated in the Abscam sting, in which FBI agents impersonating Arab businessmen offered bribes to political figures; Murtha was cited as an unindicted co-conspirator

Gerry Eastman Studds - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1973 to 1997. The first openly gay member of Congress. Censured by the House of Representatives for having sexual relations with a teenage House page.

James C. Green - Democrat - North Carolina State House of Representatives from 1961 to 1977. Charged with accepting a bribe from an undercover FBI agent, but was acquitted. Convicted of tax evasion in 1997.

Frederick Richmond - Democrat - U.S. Representative from New York from 1975 to 1982. Arrested in Washington, D.C., in 1978 for soliciting sex from a minor and from an undercover police officer - pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor. Also - charged with tax evasion, marijuana possession, and improper payments to a federal employee - pleaded guilty.

Raymond Lederer - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1977 to 1981. Implicated in the Abscam sting - convicted of bribery and sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000.

Harrison Arlington Williams, Jr. - Democrat - U.S. Senator from New Jersey from 1959 to 1970. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Allegedly accepted an 18% interest in a titanium mine. Convicted of nine counts of bribery, conspiracy, receiving an unlawful gratuity, conflict of interest, and interstate travel in aid of racketeering. Sentenced to three years in prison and fined $50,000.

Frank Thompson, Jr. - Democrat - U.S. Representative from New Jersey from 1955 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting, convicted on bribery and conspiracy charges. Sentenced to three years in prison

Michael Joseph Myers - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1976 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting - convicted of bribery and conspiracy; sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000; expelled from the House of Representatives on October 2, 1980.

John Michael Murphy - Democrat - U.S. Representative from New York from 1963 to 1981. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Convicted of conspiracy, conflict of interest, and accepting an illegal gratuity. Sentenced to three years in prison and fined $20,000.

John Wilson Jenrette, Jr - Democrat - U.S. Representative from South Carolina from 1975 to 1980. Implicated in the Abscam sting. Convicted on bribery and conspiracy charges and sentenced to prison

Neil Goldschmidt - Democrat - Oregon governor. Admitted to having an illegal sexual relationship with a 14-year-old teenager while he was serving as Mayor of Portland.

Alcee Lamar Hastings - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Florida. Impeached and removed from office as federal judge in 1989 over bribery charges.

Marion Barry - Democrat - mayor of Washington, D.C., from 1979 to 1991 and again from 1995 to 1999. Convicted of cocaine possession after being caught on videotape smoking crack cocaine. Sentenced to six months in prison.

Mario Biaggi - Democrat - U.S. Representative from New York from 1969 to 1988. Indicted on federal charges that he had accepted bribes in return for influence on federal contracts.Convicted of obstructing justice and accepting illegal gratuities. Tried in 1988 on federal racketeering charges and convicted on 15 felony counts.

Lee Alexander - Democrat - Mayor of Syracuse, N.Y. from 1970 to 1985. Was indicted over a $1.5 million kickback scandal. Pleaded guilty to racketeering and tax evasion charges. Served six years in prison.

Bill Campbell - Democrat - Mayor of Atlanta. Indicted and charged with fraud over claims he accepted improper payments from contractors seeking city contracts.

Frank Ballance - Democrat - Congressman North Carolina. Pleaded guilty to one charge of conspiracy to commit mail fraud and money laundering related to mishandling of money by his charitable foundation.

Hazel O'Leary - Democrat - Secretary of Energy during the Clinton Administration - O'leary took trips all over the world as Secretary with as many 50 staff members and at times rented a plane, which was used by Madonna during her concert tours.

Lafayette Thomas - Democrat - Candidate for Tennessee State House of Representatives in 1954. Sheriff of Davidson County, from 1972 to 1990. Indicted in federal court on 54 counts of abusing his power as sheriff. Pleaded guilty to theft and mail fraud; sentenced to five years in prison.

Mary Rose Oakar - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Ohio from 1977 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor charges of funneling $16,000 through fake donors.

David Giles - Democrat - candidate for U.S. Representative from Washington in 1986 and 1990. Convicted in June 2000 of child rape.

Gary Siplin - Democrat state senator Florida- found guilty of third-degree grand theft of $5,000 or more, a felony, and using services of employees for his candidacy.

Edward Mezvinsky - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Iowa from 1973 to 1977. Indicted on 56 federal fraud charges.

Lena Swanson - Democrat - Member of Washington State Senate in 1997. Pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting unlawful payments from veterans and former prisoners of war.

Abraham J. Hirschfeld - Democrat - candidate in Democratic primary for U.S. Senator from New York in 1974 and 1976. Offered Paula Jones $1 million to drop her sexual harassment lawsuit against President Bill Clinton. Convicted in 2000 of trying to hire a hit man to kill his business partner.

Henry Cisneros - Democrat - U.S. Secretary of Housing and Urban Development from 1993 to 1997. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of lying to the FBI.

James A. Traficant Jr. - Member of House of Representatives from Ohio. Expelled from Congress after being convicted of corruption charges. Sentenced today to eight years in prison for accepting bribes and kickbacks.

John Doug Hays - Democrat - member of Kentucky State Senate from 1980 to 1982 Found guilty of mail fraud for submitting false campaign reports stemming from an unsuccessful run for judge. He was sentenced to six months in prison to be followed by six months of home confinement and three years of probation.

Henry J. Cianfrani - Democrat - Pennsylvania State Senate from 1967 to 1976. Convicted on federal charges of racketeering and mail fraud for padding his Senate payroll. Sentenced to five years in federal prison.

David Hall - Democrat - Governor of Oklahoma from 1971 to 1975. Indicted on extortion and conspiracy charges. Convicted and sentenced to three years in prison.

John A. Celona - Democrat - A former state senator was charged with the three counts of mail fraud. Federal prosecutors accused him of defrauding the state and collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars from CVS Corp. and others while serving in the legislature. Celona has agreed to plead guilty to taking money from the CVS pharmacy chain and other companies that had interest in legislation. Under the deal, Celona agreed to cooperate with investigators. He faces up to five years in federal prison on each of the three counts and a $250,000 fine

Allan Turner Howe - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Utah from 1975 to 1977. Arrested for soliciting a policewoman posing as a prostitute.

Jerry Cosentino - Democrat - Illinois State Treasurer. Pleaded guilty to bank fraud - fined $5,000 and sentenced to nine months home confinement.

Joseph Waggonner Jr. - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Louisiana from 1961 to 19 79. Arrested in Washington, D.C. for soliciting a policewoman posing as a prostitute

Albert G. Bustamante - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Texas from 1985 to 1993. Convicted in 1993 on racketeering and bribery charges and sentenced to prison.

Lawrence Jack Smith - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Florida from 1983 to 1993. Sentenced to three months in federal prison for tax evasion.

David Lee Walters - Democrat - Governor of Oklahoma from 1991 to 1995. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor election law violation.

James Guy Tucker, Jr. - Democrat - Governor of Arkansas from 1992 to 1996. Resigned in July 1996 after conviction on federal fraud charges as part of the Whitewater investigation.

Walter Rayford Tucker - Democrat - Mayor of Compton, California from 1991 to 1992; U.S. Representative from California from 1993 to 1995. Sentenced to 27 months in prison for extortion and tax evasion.

William McCuen - Democrat - Secretary of State of Arkansas from 1985 to 1995. Admitted accepting kickbacks from two supporters he gave jobs, and not paying taxes on the money. Admitted to conspiring with a political consultant to split $53,560 embezzled from the state in a sham transaction. He was indicted on corruption charges. Pleaded guilty to felony counts tax evasion and accepting a kickback. Sentenced to 17 years in prison.

Walter Fauntroy - Democrat - Delegate to U.S. Congress from the District of Columbia from 1971 to 1991. Charged in federal court with making false statements on financial disclosure forms. Pleaded guilty to one felony count and sentenced to probation.

Carroll Hubbard, Jr. - Democrat - Kentucky State Senate from 1968 to 1975 and U.S. Representative from Kentucky from 1975 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to conspiring to defraud the Federal Elections Commission and to theft of government property; sentenced to three years in prison.

Joseph Kolter - Democrat - member of Pennsylvania State House of Representatives from 1969 to 1982 and U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1983 to 1993. Indicted by a Federal grand jury on five felony charges of embezzlement at the U.S. House post office. Pleaded guilty.

Webster Hubbell - Democrat - Chief Justice of Arkansas State Supreme Court in 1983. Pleaded guilty to federal mail fraud and tax evasion charges - sentenced to 21 months in prison.

Nicholas Mavroules - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Massachusetts from 1979 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to charges of tax fraud and accepting gratuities while in office.

Carl Christopher Perkins - Democrat - Kentucky State House of Representatives from 1981 to 1984 and U.S. Representative from Kentucky from 1985 to 1993. Pleaded guilty to bank fraud in connection with the House banking scandal. Perkins wrote overdrafts totaling about $300,000. Pleaded guilty to charges of filing false statements with the Federal Election Commission and false financial disclosure reports. Sentenced to 21 months in prison.

Richard Hanna - Democrat - U.S. Representative from California from 1963 to 1974. Received payments of about $200,000 from a Korean businessman in what became known as the "Koreagate" influence buying scandal. Pleaded guilty and sentenced to federal prison.

Angelo Errichetti - Democrat - New Jersey State Senator was sentenced to six years in prison and fined $40,000 for his involvement in Abscam.

Daniel Baugh Brewster - Democrat - U.S. Senator from Maryland. Indicted on charges of accepting illegal gratuity while in Senate.

Thomas Joseph Dodd - Democrat - U.S. Senator from Connecticut. Censured by the Senate for financial improprieties, having diverted $116,000 in campaign and testimonial funds to his own use

Edward Fretwell Prichard, Jr. - Democrat - Delegate to Democratic National Convention from Kentucky. Convicted of vote fraud in federal court in connection with ballot-box stuffing. Served five months in prison.

Jerry Springer - Democrat - Resigned from Cincinnati City Council in 1974 after admitting to paying a prostitute with a personal check, which was found in a police raid on a massage parlor.

Guy Hamilton Jones, Sr. - Democrat -Arkansas State Senate. Convicted on federal tax charges and expelled from the Arkansas Senate.

Daniel Flood - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Pennsylvania from 1945 to 1947, 1949 to 1953 and 1955 to 1980. Pleaded guilty to a conspiracy charge involving payoffs and sentenced to probation.

Otto Kerner, Jr - Democrat - Governor of Illinois from 1961 to 1968. While serving as Governor, he and another official made a gain of over $300,000 in a stock deal. Convicted on 17 counts of bribery, conspiracy, perjury, and related charges. Sentenced to three years in federal prison and fined $50,000.

George Crockett, Jr. - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Michigan. Served four months in federal prison for contempt of court following his defense of a Communist leader on trial for advocating the overthrow of the government.

Cornelius Edward Gallagher - Democrat - U.S. Representative from New Jersey from 1959 to 1973. Indicted on federal charges of income tax evasion, conspiracy, and perjury

Mark B. Jimenez - Democrat fundraiser - sentenced to 27 months in prison on charges of tax evasion and conspiracy to defraud the United States and commit election financing offenses.

Bobby Lee Rush - Democrat - U.S. Representative from Illinois. As a Black Panther, spent six months in prison on a weapons charge.

Bolley ''Bo'' Johnson - Democrat - Former Florida House Speaker - received a two-year term for tax evasion.

Roger L. Green - Democrat - Brooklyn Democrat Assemblyman. Pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor for accepting travel reimbursement for trips he did not pay for and was sentenced to fines and probation.

Gloria Davis - Democrat - Bronx assemblywoman. Pleaded guilty to second-degree bribe-taking.

 CC: http://www.boycottliberalism.com/Scandals.htm

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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 13:13

Yes, but in recent years they've been out-sleazed by Republicans like Bush, Cheney, Rove, Delay, Foley, Cunningham, Rumsfeld, all of Abramoffs boys and so many more.



Edited by DukeC - 06-Jun-2007 at 14:12
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 06:02

They are lucky they live in this era. In other times, they would be killed.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 09:35
I was reading that the most likely event would be that Libby  would appeal as late as possible and before going to jail get Bush's pardon after november 2008, inbetween the elections and the end of the presidency.

Which made me think, why the president has the capacity to pardon a criminal? Sure it goes against the division of powers. Of course the right to pardon is very important but shouldn't someone else have it? A kind of house of Lords.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 10:02
 
Originally posted by Maharbbal

I was reading that the most likely event would be that Libby  would appeal as late as possible and before going to jail get Bush's pardon after november 2008, inbetween the elections and the end of the presidency.

Which made me think, why the president has the capacity to pardon a criminal? Sure it goes against the division of powers. Of course the right to pardon is very important but shouldn't someone else have it? A kind of house of Lords.
 
I think it's more or less inherited from the British tradition in which the Queen has the power to pardon or commute sentences (nowadays through her ministers of course).
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 10:15
I got that "path dependence" but the question was: on which ground?
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  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:16
Originally posted by DukeC

Yes, but in recent years they've been out-sleazed by Republicans like Bush, Cheney, Rove, Delay, Foley, Cunningham, Rumsfeld, all of Abramoffs boys and so many more.

 
 
Sorry Duke but that like most of what you post and display as an 'anti-bushie' is pure subjectivity with not a real  of objectivity involved and as i pointed out above; their latest example is worthy of and appears to exceed his companions among the corruptness of historic democrats.
 
No suprise. Especially to those of us who been watching for better then thirty years.
 
But you have your opinion and i have made mine.
 
Which reminds me of a saying my northern, Georgia, grannie used to like to say. Tough lady, Gold star WW2 mom, used to drink her bourbon straight with a lemonade chaser.
 
" Son when you see a snake step on it's head not it's tail"
 
 
 
and that's what's being done here, ref. subjectivity vs. objectivity to the best of ones ability, rather then continuously persue the 'anti-whatever' agenda.Wink
 
 And you can't get much sleazier then this...unless your maybe Bill Clinton.
 

Lena Swanson - Democrat - Member of Washington State Senate in 1997. Pleaded guilty to charges of soliciting unlawful payments from veterans and former prisoners of war.

 
Have a nice day anyway Duke.Smile
 
 
thanks
 
Lord Ranulf
 
 
 
 


Edited by Lord Ranulf - 07-Jun-2007 at 17:20
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:42

As far as I'm concerned, being anti-Bush is being pro-American.

My mom grew up in mining camps and ranches in rural Idaho and probably would have blown away the snake you mention(they tended to be hard on the rattlesnake population), she's one of the best shots I've ever met.
 
She taught me not to take sh*t off of anyone and that includes politicians. Her dad was the same way and was part of the effort to recall Frank Church in the 1970s.
 
America's a lot bigger than one man or one party and when someone disrespects the people and Constitution of America, I think it's time to take action.


Edited by DukeC - 07-Jun-2007 at 17:43
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:00
Originally posted by DukeC

As far as I'm concerned, being anti-Bush is being pro-American.

My mom grew up in mining camps and ranches in rural Idaho and probably would have blown away the snake you mention(they tended to be hard on the rattlesnake population), she's one of the best shots I've ever met.
 
She taught me not to take sh*t off of anyone and that includes politicians. Her dad was the same way and was part of the effort to recall Frank Church in the 1970s.
 
America's a lot bigger than one man or one party and when someone disrespects the people and Constitution of America, I think it's time to take action.
 
Your mom sounds like "an American."  Americans used to be willing to work, sacrifice, and do what they had to do.  Now, they live on credit, drive cars they cannot afford, live in houses that are five times the size they need and rarely read anything.
 
Almost nobody serves the community, goes into the military, saves money or gives a crap about anyone but himself.  Nothing is required of young people, and no one is responsible for his actions.  That's what we have to work with.
 
Civics and the Constitution are not taught in schools anymore (probably un-PC), and I defy you to now find one person in a hundred who has ever read the document.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 07-Jun-2007 at 18:34
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:25
She's proud of her country and passed that on to her kids.
 
In her fifties she also went back to school to get her degree in teaching because she wanted to make at least a small difference. My step-dad also is cool, he worked as a hardrock miner for 25 years before he got his degree in busines and is now finishing his last few working years in management. Maybe I expect too much from most americans because of the people I know there.
 
And I don't have anything against Republicans like Ranulf is trying to say, most of my family is on the right politically, I just think Americans deserve better than they're getting right now. 
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  Quote lennel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:31
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Originally posted by Maharbbal

I was reading that the most likely event would be that Libby  would appeal as late as possible and before going to jail get Bush's pardon after november 2008, inbetween the elections and the end of the presidency.

Which made me think, why the president has the capacity to pardon a criminal? Sure it goes against the division of powers. Of course the right to pardon is very important but shouldn't someone else have it? A kind of house of Lords.
 
I think it's more or less inherited from the British tradition in which the Queen has the power to pardon or commute sentences (nowadays through her ministers of course).
 
Remember the US system fundamentally presumes innocence over guilt.  The president as commander in chief has the ability to pardon or commute criminals within federal jurisdictions.  This has been in large part beneficial:
-grant immediate amnesty to induce treaties
-pardon political criminals
-move on after an era. 
 
Remember Carter pardoned thousands for the Vietnam War.  Without a broad ability like this it can be a legal nightmare to go through unnecessary appeal boards, jurisdictions, evidence, etc.
 
A similar power is given to governors over state matters.
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  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:54
And I don't have anything against Republicans like Ranulf is trying to say, most of my family is on the right politically, I just think Americans deserve better than they're getting right now. 
 
Tut--tut Duke.
 
Now you are presuming to believe i am stating that you don't care for Republicans. You should watch that overgeneralisation because you haven't heard that or seen that, only presume it. And Duke after many years it's become evident, to me, that what one presumes isnt necessarily there. But no hard feelings. I recognise  you as an anti-Bushie---no harm, no foul it's your perogative. Just like mine--- is to be objective in my dislikes and likes and hatreds for that matter, as humanely possible, with out simply pandering to the subjectivity, that would like to appear and compromise my ability to rationaly persue a line of thought or debate it with as much objectivity as possible.
 
I'm well familar with rattlesnakes and copperheads and water moccasins and what not and generaly speaking, shooting's ok assuming you know what you doing, but it takes objectivity to approach with just your knife and step on his head. Because if you did it subjectively you wouldn't do it in the first place.
 
My personal best wishes to your Mom and Dad and yourself for that matter; it takes all types to be real Americans, as perhaps Pikeshot was suggesting. Even anti-bushies.Big%20smile
 
thanks
 
Lord Ranulf
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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 19:12
Could you please get a little more patronizing, I haven't filled my quota for the week yet.LOL
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  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:14
That's enoughBig%20smile
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