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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 06:21
Hello Cyrus
 
Those brutal muslims, they ruled poor old Armenia and Georgia for 1100 years and thet say Armenia is one of Al-Qaeda's major recruiting centers while Georgians is the stronghold of wahhabi Islam. One of the reasons why Russia attacked Georgia was to put an end to wahhabi georgian agression on poor Ossetian who belong to the shia sect that they converted to during the 400 years of muslim rule in their lands.
 
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Posts: 1355 		  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 11:23
(And seriously, the Sassanids lost 1300 years ago. Get over it already!)
Ha ha ha, this was a good one.
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 12:05
the Armenian genocide is more or less a clash of ethno-nationalism in the context of a collapsing empire. The purpose was not religious and it has nothing to do with Israel. Why set a cat amongst the pigeons?

Read my lips, Israel (and the west) fed and nurtured militant Islam. Hamas wouldnt of got past the slums if it wasn't for them. Nor is another religious state (Israel) helping anyone else, certainly not Christians which get abused for being on the Arab side of the fence. Syria seems to be the more moderate country and why are they enemy number one and not the Wahhabi monarchy clowns?

 Christians and Muslism lived in pretty good terms in the Levant before outsiders upset the balance. The only christians i worry about live in egypt, and those in Iraq (thanks Bush u a*hle) but thats another issue agian.


Edited by Leonidas - 21-Jan-2009 at 12:06
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 12:32
Clown this is for "es_bih" to laugh more!!
 
Originally posted by Seko

The topic is called, "Creation of Israel". But if you think, since it's creation, that moslems have gone on massacring christians (especially Armenians) during the time of Israel's creation then prove it.
 
For you 'it' is worse perhaps. But then again you should open another thread about your grudge cause you have your timelines mixed up about this one. And I assume you also care nothing about moslems that were massacred.
I believe the general massacres of non-Mulsims in the Islamic states was a process which could continue into the next century, if a Jewish state was not created in this region.
 
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 13:12

Baha'i world Centre, Haifa, Israel:

It is interesting to read about the situation of Bahais in Iran:
 

They raid the suspected houses of Bahais and just ask you "Are you a Bahai?" and if you answer "Yes" then they will hang you in public immeditaely, with no trial!

There were more than five millions Bahais in Iran but now you can hardly find anyone in Iran or other countries of the region except Israel.
 
What is a General Massacre?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 21-Jan-2009 at 13:13
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Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 14:32
Hello Cyrus
 
Of course Bahais get the royal treatment in Israel, they are similar in their position on Israel as the extremist evangelicals.
 
 The christian/muslim Arab population of Israel doesn't even get half the treatment the Jews in Morocco get. Nearly all of west Jerusalem is built on confiscated church property and literally hundreds of historic mosques, some were in Palestine for over 1350 years were distroyed. To build a mosque in a muslim city in Israel you will be bled to death by paper work and half way into the construction the building will be bulldozed for "lack" of sufficient papers.
 
Finally there is no poof that Bahais ever exceeded tens of thousands let alone five million (20% of the pre-revolution population of Iran). I am with you they are been brutalized and don't deserve anything like this, but sunnis in Iran also suffer as much, where is the condemnation?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:02
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Clown this is for "es_bih" to laugh more!!
 
Originally posted by Seko

The topic is called, "Creation of Israel". But if you think, since it's creation, that moslems have gone on massacring christians (especially Armenians) during the time of Israel's creation then prove it.
 
For you 'it' is worse perhaps. But then again you should open another thread about your grudge cause you have your timelines mixed up about this one. And I assume you also care nothing about moslems that were massacred.
I believe the general massacres of non-Mulsims in the Islamic states was a process which could continue into the next century, if a Jewish state was not created in this region.
 
 


What general massacre?. And is it right to replace a fictional massacre with an actual one ?
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:03
Originally posted by Leonidas

Nor is another religious state (Israel) ....
How can it be a religious state when the large majority of the population don't believe in the religion (or any other, from the polls I've seen)? Israel has religious courts, but they're subject to control by the secular ones: what Arab countries is that true of? (I accept there probably are some.)
 
This is essentially an ethnic/tribal/secular issue over land, not a religious one except for a few on either side.
helping anyone else, certainly not Christians which get abused for being on the Arab side of the fence. Syria seems to be the more moderate country and why are they enemy number one and not the Wahhabi monarchy clowns?
Because the Saudis are further away and haven't been as aggressive in the past, and Syria is a neighbour with whom there are territorial disputes. Egypt used to be Israel's enemy number one until the two of them saw some sense. It has nothing much to do with religion, though political leaders on each side of course try and make out it does, so they can get sympathy and aid.

 Christians and Muslism lived in pretty good terms in the Levant before outsiders upset the balance.
And Jews. As they still do pretty well everywhere where they're not squabbling over land.
 The only christians i worry about live in egypt, and those in Iraq (thanks Bush u a*hle) but thats another issue agian.
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Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 20:56
Hello gcle
 
All Arab regimes are staunchly secular with civil law as the basic law (based on the French system mostly), even in the "wahhabi" Saudi Arabia.
 
Also, Israel has always been seen in religious terms, it has always been seen as a "Jewish" state not a secular democracy. Judaism is defacto state religion, just look at the exception jews get in Israel.
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 21:05

Al Jassas, I think you know that the main problem in the Middle East is the conflict between Shia and Sunni and Israel is just a pretext, I don't think Sunni Arabs are so gullible to believe Iran is increasing its power in the south of Lebanon and Iraq to fight against Israel!!
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Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2009 at 21:15
Hello Cyrus
 
The main problem in the middle east is there are Arab dictators whose only goal in life is to stay in power no matter what and opress the people, and a regime controlled by power opsessed freaks who use religion to supress their people and drive them into poverty to finance their ridiculous international ambitions. And the worst thing of them all, people who learned never to say NO!
 
 
Israel is a problem of the Palestinians and their neighbours and it can solve itself easily and the deep s**t they are in right now is mostly of their own making.
 
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 00:35
Originally posted by gcle2003

How can it be a religious state when the large majority of the population don't believe in the religion (or any other, from the polls I've seen)? Israel has religious courts, but they're subject to control by the secular ones: what Arab countries is that true of? (I accept there probably are some.)

Because it was created in order to replicate a religious myth, for a religious group, because 'God gave them the land', and it serves that particular religious group over and above all others.
Originally posted by Cyrus

Al Jassas, I think you know that the main problem in the Middle East is the conflict between Shia and Sunni and Israel is just a pretext, I don't think Sunni Arabs are so gullible to believe Iran is increasing its power in the south of Lebanon and Iraq to fight against Israel!!

Al Jassas is correct. The sunni-shia conflict is encouraged and blown out of all proportion by dictators & invadors that would rather have their population fighting among itself than fighting against them.
Look at the support Hizbullah got with sunnis in the '06 war, and I'd reckon Iran would be more popular than some of the dictators around.
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 10:43
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Leonidas

Nor is another religious state (Israel) ....
How can it be a religious state when the large majority of the population don't believe in the religion (or any other, from the polls I've seen)? Israel has religious courts, but they're subject to control by the secular ones: what Arab countries is that true of? (I accept there probably are some.)

its a state that is defined by its religion before anything else, it serves the Jews above all other groups. Citizenship is one thing but being Jewish gives you full rights and benefits.

Proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

look at how the treat Arab citizens, not the formal law but in reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel


This is essentially an ethnic/tribal/secular issue over land, not a religious one except for a few on either side.
well is being Jewish an ethnic thing or religious? maybe its a bit of both, but it is certainly not just ethnic. considering the broad range of backgrounds the Jewish immigrants have come from.

helping anyone else, certainly not Christians which get abused for being on the Arab side of the fence. Syria seems to be the more moderate country and why are they enemy number one and not the Wahhabi monarchy clowns?
Because the Saudis are further away and haven't been as aggressive in the past, and Syria is a neighbour with whom there are territorial disputes. Egypt used to be Israel's enemy number one until the two of them saw some sense. It has nothing much to do with religion, though political leaders on each side of course try and make out it does, so they can get sympathy and aid.
helping anyone else, certainly not Christians which get abused for being on the Arab side of the fence. Syria seems to be the more moderate country and why are they enemy number one and not the Wahhabi monarchy clowns?
careful Graham, The Saudi's had been arm deep in exporting militant Islam, generally in tandem with the US, since the 70's. Hamas was one of their typical funding destinations (even if it was done 'privately'), they also hated the (syrain backed) national socailist Fatah movement. Syria/Iran copped the flack for Iraq but what was made of the saudi's? At least the first two had a nutter president picking a real fight and making threats.

 Syria wants the Golan back and has made overtures, it is isreal thats not that interested. Well it is, but Bush was much more hardline with that country, infact the Syrain withdraw from lebanon helped unleashed the 2006 war. Isreal would of prefered the stability that old understanding had. Why would isreal be more intersted in peace? the current regime is much better than any alternative as well as boxing in problems like hezbollah.  The question that seems to have been raised in one of the stratfor analysis, I came across, was its either the put up with the odd extremist coming over the border or weaken damascus and have extremist running the country. Syria is a Alawai-baathist country that isnt as hardline as iran in its rhetoric and much better than the monarchist muppets who have committed Palistine to its prison.
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Posts: 1355 		  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 11:38
Leo,

good work underlining the US/Western support to the islamists. It was part of a general strategy called the 'Green Belt'. It's aim was to create a Green (being the colour of Islam) Belt around the Soviets by supporting and creating Islamist movements in the Middle East and rest of Asia with the help of Saudi oil money. That's why Bin Ladin was CIA-trained and even why Turkey has an islamist government today. 

One thing though, it is misleading to call Fatah movement "national socailist". That term means Nazi (which is not socialist), and Fatah was nothing similar. It was just nationalist. PLFP was more left wing than Fatah. 
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 12:42
My bad, i tend to group that era of Arab nationalist in that nether land like the Baathist. 
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:36

Here are a handful of the quotes I was referring to. It is important to note that a typical Zionist tactic is to imply that Palestine was "empty" or "backward", or simply not fit for self-determination. These quotes are from notable Zionists speaking about the population disparity in Palestine, amongst other things:

One of the most celebrated Zionists in Israel, Chaim Weizmann, using the typical Zionist tactic (emphases are mine):

 

"In its initial stage, Zionism was conceived by its pioneers as a movement wholly depending on mechanical factors: there is a country which happens to be called Palestine, a country without people, and, on the other hand, there exists the Jewish people, and it has no country. What else is necessary, then, than to fit the gem into the ring, to unite this people with this country? The owners of the country [the Ottoman Turks] must, there for, be persuaded and conceived that this marriage is advantageous, not only for the [Jewish] people and for the country, but also for themselves." (Expulsion of the Palestinians, p. 6)

"By a Jewish National Home I mean the creation of such conditions that as the country is developed we can pour in a considerable number of immigrants, and finally establish such a society in Palestine that Palestine shall be as Jewish as England is English or America American." (Expulsion of the Palestinians, p. 41)

"The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was built on air ... every day and every hour of these last 10 years, when opening the newspapers, I thought: Whence will the next blow come? I trembled lest the British Government would call me and ask: 'Tell us, what is this Zionist Organization? Where are they, your Zionists?' ... The Jews, they knew, were against us [the Zionists]; we stood alone on a little island, a tiny group of Jews with a foreign past." (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section V)

 

 

Weizmann in the aftermath of the 1948 war: " a miraculous clearing of the land: the miraculous simplification of Israel's task." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 175 & Simha Flapan, p. 84)

 
 
Theodore Herzl, founder of modern Zionism:
 
"We can be the vanguard of culture against barbarianism." (One Palestine Complete, p. 150)
 
"The antisemites WILL BECOME our most loyal friends, the antisemites nations will become our allies." (One Palestine Complete, p. 47)
 
 
David Ben-Gurion:
 

"Zionist policy must be in agreement with the English and the [Palestinian] Arabs. . . [However,] without an agreement with the English, there is no point in talking about an agreement with the [Palestinian] Arabs, as long as we are not a majority." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 126)

". . . they [referring to Palestinians] showed new power and remarkable discipline. Many of them were killed . . . this time not murderers and rioters, but political demonstrators. Despite the tremendous unrest, the order not to harm Jews was obeyed. This shows exceptional political discipline. There is no doubt that these events will leave a profound imprint on the [Palestinian] Arab movement. This time we have seen a political movement which must evoke the respect of the world. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 126)
 
"Almost every [Palestinian] Arab" opposed Zionism, "because he is an Arab, because he is a Muslim, because he dislikes foreigners, and because we are hateful to him in every way." The conflict had lasted thirty years, and was liable "to continue for perhaps hundreds more." This was a "real war, a war of life or death."(Shabtai Teveth, p. 184)
 
 
Despite Zionist propaganda, there was clearly no Jewish majority, or there wouldn't be so much emphasis on immigration of Jews to Palestine and on whether or not the Palestinian Arabs would resist the Zionists.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 20:57
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello gcle
 
All Arab regimes are staunchly secular with civil law as the basic law (based on the French system mostly), even in the "wahhabi" Saudi Arabia.
I'll take your word for it. That still leaves Israel in the same position.
 
Also, Israel has always been seen in religious terms, it has always been seen as a "Jewish" state not a secular democracy.
Jewish certainly, but not religious. Most Israeli Jews don't even believe in God, let alone Judaism[1]. It's a far more secular society than, say, the USA. They even offered the first presidency to Einstein, a noted atheist - that couldn't happen in the US. Waizmann, who actually got the job, may I think have been a Judaist but several of his successors weren't. How many Arab heads of state are non-Muslim? (Again, there may well be some.)
 
[1] I mean in a God like the God of the Torah. The original Zionists were secular, and they wanted to set up a socialist secular state. Recently though there's been some reporting from Israeli religious sources that the people have been 'turning back to Judaism' but there's not too much sign of it on the ground, and that's the kind of thing religious propagandists like to report.
Judaism is defacto state religion, just look at the exception jews get in Israel.
 
AL-Jassas
All I'm aware of is that religious students are exempt from military service. Ahain though, Jews may get preferred positions in Israel, but that's because they're Jewish not because they're religious.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 21:19
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by gcle2003

How can it be a religious state when the large majority of the population don't believe in the religion (or any other, from the polls I've seen)? Israel has religious courts, but they're subject to control by the secular ones: what Arab countries is that true of? (I accept there probably are some.)

Because it was created in order to replicate a religious myth, for a religious group,
That is quite simply and factually untrue. The vast majority of the original Zionists were secular, many if not most of them Marxist: certainly only a few of them were Judaic believers.
 
because 'God gave them the land', and it serves that particular religious group over and above all others.
'God gave them the land' was never a Zionist slogan: it only recently emerged as a slogan at all. The majority strand of Zionism, represented by Ben Guron, was socialist, indeed Marxist, while there was strong 'centrist' liberal (in the English sense) faction represented by Weizmann, and even Jabotinsky's right wing was more fervently nationalist than religious. Wikipedia seems to be down at the moment so I can't suggest anything there but http://arts.monash.edu.au/publications/eras/edition-7/dubnovarticle.php
has an interesting discussion of Zionism centred on the British liberal Isaiah Berlin.
 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 21:34
ArmenianSurvival's quotes are very interesting. Not one refers to God or Judaism or religion at all, except for one mention that Palestinians may oppose the Zionist movement because they are Muslim.
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Leonidas

Nor is another religious state (Israel) ....
How can it be a religious state when the large majority of the population don't believe in the religion (or any other, from the polls I've seen)? Israel has religious courts, but they're subject to control by the secular ones: what Arab countries is that true of? (I accept there probably are some.)

its a state that is defined by its religion before anything else, it serves the Jews above all other groups. Citizenship is one thing but being Jewish gives you full rights and benefits.

Proof
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_Fund

look at how the treat Arab citizens, not the formal law but in reality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
None of that is religious. Jews are favoured because they're Jews, not because of their religion. Atheist Jews have risen to top positions in Israel. (see my other post)


This is essentially an ethnic/tribal/secular issue over land, not a religious one except for a few on either side.
well is being Jewish an ethnic thing or religious? maybe its a bit of both, but it is certainly not just ethnic. considering the broad range of backgrounds the Jewish immigrants have come from.
They're all Jewish, or at least believed to be. That's an ethnic distinction. They do NOT all believe in Judaism - in fact only a minority do. So it's not religious. The US is a far more religious country, de facto, than Israel is. The US only permits, de facto, Christian Presidents. On the other hand Obama can be president of the US, but could never be of Israel (again, de facto).
helping anyone else, certainly not Christians which get abused for being on the Arab side of the fence. Syria seems to be the more moderate country and why are they enemy number one and not the Wahhabi monarchy clowns?
Because the Saudis are further away and haven't been as aggressive in the past, and Syria is a neighbour with whom there are territorial disputes. Egypt used to be Israel's enemy number one until the two of them saw some sense. It has nothing much to do with religion, though political leaders on each side of course try and make out it does, so they can get sympathy and aid.
careful Graham, The Saudi's had been arm deep in exporting militant Islam, generally in tandem with the US, since the 70's. Hamas was one of their typical funding destinations (even if it was done 'privately'), they also hated the (syrain backed) national socailist Fatah movement. Syria/Iran copped the flack for Iraq but what was made of the saudi's? At least the first two had a nutter president picking a real fight and making threats.
The key to why you are wrong there is 'in tandem with the US'. The Saudis are interested in exporting their brand of Islam to the Muslim world, but, despite the rhetoric, they've never nbeen particularly aggressive toward Israel - partly because of the US alliance, but basically because the Saudis and Israel don't have much to quarrel about.
 
I think al-Jassas' attitude towards Palestine (which at root isn't too different from mine) is interesting and somewhat similar to the Saudi one.

 Syria wants the Golan back and has made overtures, it is isreal thats not that interested.
Exactly. Israel doesn't have any Saudi territory, and the Saudis don't have any Israeli territory (or even any claims on the West Bank). Egypt and Jordan have made peace, Lebanon's too small to worry about, and that leaves Syria as the only real opponent.
Well it is, but Bush was much more hardline with that country, infact the Syrain withdraw from lebanon helped unleashed the 2006 war. Isreal would of prefered the stability that old understanding had. Why would isreal be more intersted in peace? the current regime is much better than any alternative as well as boxing in problems like hezbollah.  The question that seems to have been raised in one of the stratfor analysis, I came across, was its either the put up with the odd extremist coming over the border or weaken damascus and have extremist running the country. Syria is a Alawai-baathist country that isnt as hardline as iran in its rhetoric and much better than the monarchist muppets who have committed Palistine to its prison.
I didnt say Syria and Israel were at loggerheads, merely that Syria was a bigger threat to Israel (potentially) than Saudi Arabia. And vice versa. Israel is the only threat to Syria around.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 22-Jan-2009 at 21:38
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2009 at 06:26
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by gcle2003

How can it be a religious state when the large majority of the population don't believe in the religion (or any other, from the polls I've seen)? Israel has religious courts, but they're subject to control by the secular ones: what Arab countries is that true of? (I accept there probably are some.)

Because it was created in order to replicate a religious myth, for a religious group,

That is quite simply and factually untrue. The vast majority of the original Zionists were secular, many if not most of them Marxist: certainly only a few of them were Judaic believers.

because 'God gave them the land', and it serves that particular religious group over and above all others.

'God gave them the land' was never a Zionist slogan: it only recently emerged as a slogan at all. The majority strand of Zionism, represented by Ben Guron, was socialist, indeed Marxist, while there was strong 'centrist' liberal (in the English sense) faction represented by Weizmann, and even Jabotinsky's right wing was more fervently nationalist than religious. Wikipedia seems to be down at the moment so I can't suggest anything there but http://arts.monash.edu.au/publications/eras/edition-7/dubnovarticle.php
has an interesting discussion of Zionism centred on the British liberal Isaiah Berlin.

No its not. That's the whole point of Israel, and the whole reason Palestine was chosen. Because in Jewish belief it is the land given by God to the Jews. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether the zionists in the '40s were religious or not. They saw Palestine as their land because of their religious mythology. That's the whole point!

They didn't sit down in 1897 and decide to invade Palestine for no reason. They has always been waiting to 'go back to the holy land'. In the 1760s European Jews were all about to follow Sabbatai Zevi to Palestine until he swapped from Jewish Messiah to Muslim convert unexpectedly.

The Russians created a Jewish homeland but that never attracted millions of migrants. Because most Jews weren't interested in a homeland in Sibera. They wanted Palestine.
None of that is religious. Jews are favoured because they're Jews, not because of their religion. Atheist Jews have risen to top positions in Israel. (see my other post)

Playing with semantics. Modern Judaism is a ethno-religious identity. You can't separate the religious and ethnic components. An ethiopian Jew and a European Jew share nothing but religion, and a common claim on ancestory even if one or both of them may not be very religious.
The way people identify themselves does not fall easily into ethnic, nationalistic, or religious boxes.

How many sources would you like?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/firstcong.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbatai_Zevi#Sabbatai_adopts_Islam
http://www.zionism-israel.com/his/Jerusalem_history.htm


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 23-Jan-2009 at 06:29
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