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Iranian lesbian faces deportation from Britain |
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 Topic: Iranian lesbian faces deportation from BritainPosted: 30-Aug-2007 at 06:35 |
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Incidentally, its their country and their rules. You have to live by laws that have been set. Now the articles which Dolphin so kindly provided are fairly unspecific about their sources, are they official gov documents? NGO's or dissident groups? As for the boys who were exceuted, well IIRC in Iran the age of majority is 15, so under their laws they are adults. Whilst Morty, IIRC Iran is along with the US one of only two countries where their are more women graduates than men. A bit more knowledge before a rush to judgement would be better.
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke 
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 06:51 |
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Hello to you All.
Well Parnell, if you don't want anything of that to happen then simply do not interfer with other peoples business. You do not know a thing about how much people hate Homosexuals in Islamic countries and what would happen if it was tolerated by the governments. As Sparten said above, its their laws, their country and their people that are exposed and it is with the support of the people, and no matter how do you think of these laws you must respect their sovereignty. No one in the Islamic world to my knowledge raised any objection to the "brutal" punishment of Castration in several EU member countries for sexual and non sexual offenders which is nothing different that cutting the Hand of a criminal or executing him for murder.
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Parnell
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Suspended Joined: 04-Apr-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1409 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 06:51 |
Within reason. Homsexuality was illegal in Ireland until 1993 (Though in fairness, was never enforces since the 60s) Still, it wouldn't stop me from being homosexual if I was that way inclined....
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Dolphin
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Suspended Joined: 06-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1551 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 06:51 |
I can say the exact same thing about the actions of Iran. I find is very, very, worrying that a moderator, and an obviously very intelligent person can find it acceptable to hang two kids, because that's what they are, due only to their sexual preference. All independant and rounded thinkers can see that this behaviour by a government is a human rights atrocity, and explains why so many educated young Iranians are seeking to escape the tyranny of their country, as well as demonstating publicly on the streets.
The behaviour is tantamount to governmental extremism, and I must say, Sparten, that on this issue, there can be no real dispute as to whether the hangings were justifiable or not. Just because it is the law of the country does not make it right. Was mass murder of Jews in Germany justified because it was endorsed by the government? Was the actions of Pinochet against his own people justified because it was his doctrine that was adopted? of course not.
I would not consider myself some sort of Liberal or anything, but to me it is just common sense that murdering human beings because of their sexual preference is wrong. Nobody has the right, not even a government to kill a citizen, and that goes for all executions for whatever reason. Should the human life be so wantonly disregarded because of dogma, can people be so ignorant as to believe it is right to murder others like this?
Homosexuality is part of the human make-up, for me it is neurological and thus cannot be irradicated, or vaccinated, or genocidally removed. It will always be there, so for me, the 'act' of gay sex, or whatever you want to call it, is not wrong, it is not illegal, and it is perfectly natural. Live and let live, that's what I say.
Read what Ireland has done on the issue of gay rights, but I suppose this is all wrong as well. Im proud to say my country has removed the death penalty and gives gay people the same rights under the law. Maybe it is not me that needs a little more knowledge.
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Parnell
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 06:52 |
Rape and Paedophilia is comparable to homosexuality? You've just lost any chance of me thinking you a rational and good person.
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Dolphin
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Suspended Joined: 06-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1551 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 07:00 |
Stay out of other people's business? This is a discussion forum on a topic which happens to be about the treatment of gays in Iran. It is as much his business to comment on this issue than anybody else.
Castration you talk about is chemical castration, and does not involve the removal or any body parts at all. It just removes the sexual 'drive' of the offender. And it is still in trials and will be rejected by the vast vast majority of wesern countries. Plus, I think the action of removing the hand of a criminal is slightly more common than chemical castration, as well as much more brutal.
I can 'respect' the sovereignty of the country of Iran, but that does not mean I have to respect its laws, some of which to me amount to human rights atrocities. My opinion.
Why are gays so hated in the Islamic world? Why is the operative word here. What did they do wrong? What gives the government justification to murder them? Do they not have the right to life and to love another? Or are they sub-human?
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Parnell
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 07:18 |
Let me ask you; Why is that people who strongly advocate Sharia Law are so opposed to criticism? For pitys sake, no society or civilisation has ever advanced without outside criticism...
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Serge L
Baron 
Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 485 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 07:37 |
Moreover, it's reversible. I'd say the term "Castration" is due to news sensatonalism, it just consists in regularly taking some pills.
If and when one stops to take them, also the effects are reversed.
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Al Jassas
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Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 07:48 |
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Hello To you All
I hope that this thread stays out of personal attack please.
As for the points that Parnell and Dolphin pointed to this is my reply.
First, I did not go off topic Dolphin, Parnell said somthing about burning effigies and terrorism and I replied to his point.
Second, rape is far worse than Homosexuality and the only punishment in my opinion for Paedophilia is death, the most despicable act a person can do. People cannot control what they are but they can control what they do, people's attitude towards Homosexuality is far worse than you can think of and it is homosexual acts that are punished not homosexuals. I know a guy who went to a very promenent and fundamentalist religious scholar where I live and openly talked about his homosexuality, the scholar didn't persecute him although he could have, he just tried to degayify him and discourage him from homosexual intercourse. The so called "religious police" here in Saudi Arabia always capture homosexual couples but most go unpunished because no proof exist to punish them, but they don't leave them, they also try to discourage them from Homosexual acts. Only childe predators are executed.
finally for the Sharia law issue, critcism is there and the laws change with time. Sensitivity to criticism is not limited to muslims and it is when criticism degenerates to personal attacks on the religion and its symbols that make people angry.
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Dolphin
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 07:57 |
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lol Good luck trying to 'degayify' homosexuals..It makes me laugh even writing it..
The religion of Islam is not and I venture to say will not be critisced in this discussion, but some of the laws contained within it will, because from my point of view some of them are barbaric, backwards, and even evil, even when they are not designed as such.
And whereas paedophilia is a disgusting crime, again I think that the death penalty is unjustifiable, as not only doe sit not solve anything, but adds another name onto the list of victims, with nothing but basic, primevial revenge the victor. Edited by Dolphin - 30-Aug-2007 at 07:58 |
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Patch
Samurai 
Joined: 19-Apr-2006 Location: England Online Status: Offline Posts: 119 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 08:28 |
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It is stange that we are trying to deport this woman to Iran, who has to my knowledge committed no crime in Britain whereas we don't deport convicted murderers.
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 08:30 |
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I am sorry this is going out of hand. If all of you and that means Dolphin, Al Jassas and Parnell can't keep a valid discussion from degenerating into personal attacks then I am afraid that this topic will be closed and all, of you will face sanctions. No personal attacks on anyone will be tolerated at all. |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 08:43 |
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As for the case at hand, well it is the choice of nations to set whatever moral standard within their lands that they see fit. Critisims of Iran's law is valid, but then when the critisism is made on presumptions, as Dolphin (my apologies if I am wrong) seems to assume Iran's law is based on Sharia (which incidentally is not law, its jurisprudence a rather large difference). And while we are at it no, under Islamic law homosexual acts are not illegal. The only things completely illegal and with a fixed sentence under the Islamic legal what are called "hadd", ie theft, highway robbery, adultry, false accusation of adultry and consumption of alcohol. Everything else comes under "Tazir" where the sentence is not fixed and the decision to hold it legal or illegal is up to the state.Now Iran has decided to hold under "Tazir" homosexual acts as being illegal. Fine, their choice. It has no explicit Islamic sanction or approval, so I would kindly appreciate it if you sir (and I say this with my mod hat off) and other; educate themselves about what you are critising before giving us all the benefit of you opinions.
And Dolphin (mod hat thrown to the wind) kindly in future do not presume to tell me what my opinions are or are not. I will make no such presumption about you and I hope it will be reciprocated.
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Richard XIII
Colonel 
Joined: 06-Jun-2005 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 651 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 08:52 |
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Christians and Muslims have different values, how many books are translated in Arabian? few per year, in any major Christian country tens of thousands or more are translated including the books from Muslim world, the Muslims (many of them) don't understand our love for human life and rights , for freedom of speech and so on. Almost a half of Muslim world (the women) is, without doubt, discriminated, useless for society, so who in the Muslim world cares about a lesbian girl? Nobody! They care about their image in the western world, all the Muslim world does is just a justification not a rational argument, they simply want to impose Sharia in the entire world and are ready to die for (some of them but a very large number, 1% is huge). We must face the truth and to do something.
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details." Albert Einstein |
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Parnell
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 08:54 |
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Sharia or no, it is an unfortunate fact of life that the likes of myself and Dolphin - who hail from the other side of the world in a relative Liberal paradise - have assumed that beheading homosexuals is a point of Sharia law. The reason we have assumed this, without studying Sharia in great detail is because those countries with Sharia in place are guilty of some of the most horrendous human rights violations in the world. Nevertheless, can we please get back to discussing Iran's gross human rights violations? For example, how is it even possible for someone to defend these said executions?Victimless crimes are unfortunately still punished here in the west - be it the taking of Drugs, prostitution and a few other things were the only victims are either to yourself or indirectly (To society as a whole or to your family and friends (With drugs)
Homosexuality is not considered to be harmful to society as a whole - the acts take place with consenting adults. Where it is not, it is rape. If a sexual, private act occurs between two (or more, whatever your inta :) ) consenting adults, what issue does the state and moreover the people have to poke their noses into your bedroom?
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Dolphin
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Suspended Joined: 06-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1551 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 09:25 |
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I dont understand where this personal attacks angle has been gleaned from..Who did I, or anybody else personally attack? The only thing I showed my disagreement with was the treatment of homosexuals (not to mention women) in Iran, and I stick by this.
Sparten, I did not want to put words in your mouth, so maybe I was a little hasty in this regard.
The topic is about Iran and not Islam, something I made a clear distinction with in my posts, I have not once, critiscised the religion of islam, so, as predicted, the inference is that I am islamaphobic, even though I have found a problem with the implementation of the religion in Iran, and not the religion itself. So, I refuse to accept that I have personally attacked anyone, nor have I been critical towards the religion of Islam as a whole, but just some of the laws ( or jurisprudence, if you will).
The key issue here, before it is totally lost in disclaimers etc, is that Iran has commited, and continues to commit human rights atrocities, and that in my view, and in the view of many people around the globe, not just in the west, this is unacceptable and should not be allowed to continue. Whether anything can be done is a different issue.
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 09:48 |
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Whoa, hang on there Richard now you went too far in your response. I will not respond untill the moderator allows me to do so. Meanwhile I am out of this discussion.
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Dolphin
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Suspended Joined: 06-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1551 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 09:56 |
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Al Jassas, the response of Richard does not affect you at all. You wont get in trouble! I still remain interested in this topic and your opinions would be appreciated. It takes many different arguments to discover the truth, so I would like it if you didnt veer out..
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Guests
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 09:57 |
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Richard, I think you will have to discuss a little more how do I say it, acedemically!
Al Jassas, the warning was simply to all to engage in discourse without personal attacks. It was not to prevent discussion.
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Richard XIII
Colonel
Joined: 06-Jun-2005 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 651 |
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 10:05 |
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np, academically if you want, i apologize my post was dedicated to Arabian countries, the hardcore of Muslim world
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA10402 read carefully Edited by Richard XIII - 30-Aug-2007 at 10:11 |
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details." Albert Einstein |
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