Greece vs Turkey

Seko wrote :

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I am completely pleased with my rebuttal against improper accusations made my way and in defense of Turkish Cypriots and Turkey. I have presented documentation from newspapers, the U.N and eyewitness reports.  For anybody interested in further knowledge on this topic feel free to search for information presented by both sides and make your own conclusions. ###

Of course u r pleased Seko , and u must be so .From times imemorable , propaganda was based on ignorance. U have presented "documentation" from news papers , which may well be written by payed pens , u have presented eyewitness reports from people that may very well had already a check in their pokets....

And u were completely unable to present ANY UN resolution , in favour of Turkey , after ur  invation in Cyprus .... Not even one (1).

So , yes If anyone wants more infos , let him go to the UN resolutions and UN Human rights section , and read ALL the facts.......Not propaganda.

So Seko , its ok by me and thnks for proving ur inability , which is not only urs , personally , but its a characteristic of Turkey as a country ,generally , when it comes to these matters , facts vs propaganda.

As a closing paragraph , for u and the fellow forumers who want and always search for the truth , i devote this :

5. Another characteristic of Turkish national identity is the fact that the Turks consider themselves the actual, true victims of history. "We are the nation upon whom actual injustice was inflicted. We are a persecuted nation, but no one recognizes that. We are treated as the "'stepchildren' of history." Two factors have contributed to the evolution of this mental attitude. First, throughout the nineteenth century, the national wars of liberation of Christian groups in the Balkans (Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, etc.) were experienced as massacres of the Moslem population. Secondly, Europe paid no attention to the massacres of Moslems, although European nations were highly sensitive to the massacres of Christians and utilized every occasion to interfere. It is not an exaggeration to say that in the minds of the Moslems had entrenched itself the firm belief that the entire world was poised against them; they considered themselves the victims of history.

6. Two essential factors are responsible for the difficulty of the Turks in coping with this sentiment of collapse and worthlessness. First, there was the deeply rooted belief in the superiority of the Turks over other peoples and the right of Turks to dominate them. There is still talk today of erecting a world empire and of dominating other nations as signposts of Turkish superiority and historical uniqueness. The most important reason for this attitude lies in the fact that the Turks, as a ruling stratum, (even though they themselves were not conscious of their Turkishness), and under the influence of Islamic thought, identified themselves with Islam and felt superior to the empire's other religious groups. The idea of the " ruling nation" (Millet-I Hakime) dominated the thinking of the Ottoman-Turkish ruling elite. At the same time, the Ottoman-Turkish ruling elite was overwhelmed by the greatness of its own past. There was really an enormous gap between the sense of belonging to an empire that ruled over three continents and the current situation, in which national honor was being dragged through the mud. The conflict between these past and present realities intensified the need to 1) reject the present, 2) return to the old days of imperial glory, and 3) punish those who were accused of being responsible for the current malaise.

http://www.omroep.nl/human/tv/muur/artikel2.htm

Isk. 

Edited by iskenderani

Turks never saw themselves as superior to other nations. The cultural ideology was always about the equality of races and nations. This is why some Turks inermixed with other nations easily. But the main Turkish ideology was the superiority of God's order. Turks always believed that they were sent to our world to punish the people when God orders them to do so, and to unite whole world under their rule.

Turks are the "steppe children" of history, not the "step children". The  Ottoman Empire never had an ideology about the superiority of Turkish rule and civilization. This is why the dynasty and empire was never identified as Turkish and the empire's civilization was a synthesis of multiple civilizations, so it wasnt based on only a "superior" Turkish culture.

In the Ottoman Empire, the laborization of the Ottoman nations wasnt according to their nationality, it was according to their religion. So Turkmens, Arabs or Kurds werent differed. But the difference was only btw Muslims and gayri Muslims (non Muslims). The Turkmen population was kind of a "step children" under the Ottoman rule, so there wasnt any ideology about Turkish superiority in the Ottoman civilization.

I cant understand how you guys can blame Turks and Ottomans for these non-sense. This is very redicilous. I think you shouldnt get out off your topic like this, because you are doing nothing but provokation...

I think the topic is about Greece and Turkey, not the so-called Armenian Genocide. So if you want to discuss this topic, you should form a new topic about this issue.

About the UN resolution issue, this is possibly impossible to find any UN resolutions to support Turkey in Cyprus issue, because UN is nothing but a servant. You cant wish a useful resolution from an organization which placed millions of Jews in a very "absurd" place under the authority of an internationally accepted countries borderlands.

Originally posted by iskenderani Well we dont blame u ....Taner Aksam , a Turkish proff and historian acuses u , in a rare ocasion of self-critisism . Dont humour urself that Turks intermixed with "reayas"....."reayas" had the status of an animal , a sheep , or a cow..

Taner Akcam is not an historian. Moreover he was a former citizen of Turkey.

He was one of the old third world style underdeveloped communist "intellectual" living as a refugee and became a dog of the environment who supported him.

Consequently he is a dog.

Edited by Alparslan

Originally posted by Oguzoglu Originally posted by iskenderani [QUOTE=Oguzoglu]   We can figure out "whose servant UN is", by looking at his past procedures. They placed Israel in a strategic and "absurd" point, and they always served US and Israel. Look at their current "productive actions". They had thousands of resolutions about the destruction of the wall in Palestine, but still they keep on being totally passive watchers. Where were they during the genocide in Kosova? The Cyprus issue has nothing to do with the "holy Annan plan". I have never supported it, and it doesnt matter if some Cypriots who had EU flags in their hands instead of Turkish flags in a national ceremony, supported that plan. Northern Cyprus is Turkish, and will stay Turkish, no matter some Greek cypriots and some "Turkish originated" cypriots dont support Turkey's existance in Northern Cyprus...

Man, I thought we were trying to move towards peace, and you talk about the north always being in the hands of turkey. So you not one for a United peaceful Cyprus? I guess its people like you that stand in the way..

Edited by strategos

Strategos,

Why have you got the Enosis flag?

Are you a supporter of Greek Cypriot Terrorists (EOKA, EOKA-B) that killed many Turks and even British?

Anyway, Oguzoglu did NOT say that TRNC will stay in Turkeys hands. He said "Northern Cyprus is Turkish, and will stay Turkish" which is correct because the Greeks voted NO (OXI) to the annan plan, so the TRNC will live for ever, INSALLAH!

Edited by OSMANLI

I think that both groups need to realize that there will never be a Turkey controlled Cyprus and that there will never be a Greek controlled Cyprus. Neither group will ever have full control over the Island. So, I think the best bet is to have an independent Cyprus Nation. Have the government be comprised of Greeks and Turks.

I see Greeks bashing turks in this thread and Vice Versa. No side is better. The Greeks are certainly not any better than the Turks are and vice versa. Atrocities have been committed on both sides.

It was dumb to vote down the Annan plan. It may not have been the best plan, but it was something. And it would have been progress. And progress is something that is definitely not happening right now.


Edited by Illuminati

I think that both groups need to realize that there will never be a Turkey controlled Cyprus and that there will never be a Greek controlled Cyprus. Neither group will ever have full control over the Island. So, I think the best bet is to have an independent Cyprus Nation. Have the government be comprised of Greeks and Turks.

Correct. By the way , THERE IS an indipendent Democracy of Cyprus , a nattion which is recognised by UN , but its 38% of total area , is still under occupation from foreign armies.I would add also that also the British HAVE to leave the island.Their bases there r remnants of an imperialistic past and nothing more.

I see Greeks bashing turks in this thread and Vice Versa. No side is better. The Greeks are certainly not any better than the Turks are and vice versa. Atrocities have been committed on both sides.

Wrong , and it is clear that u have not following ur History lessons , thus equalizing murderes with victims.Nobody invited Turks anywhere. They attacked , and occupied the lands that they r living now , regarding the occupied people like animals or "reayas" , commiting  ethnic cleansing whenever they estimated it was for their own sake. Can u blame people fighting for their own freedom ??

It was dumb to vote down the Annan plan. It may not have been the best plan, but it was something. And it would have been progress. And progress is something that is definitely not happening right now.

Wrong again. The A(u)nan plan was giving all Cyprus to the hands of 80.000 Turkish Cypriots + 130.000 immigrants from Turkey , who had no right either to vote , or either to be there , as colonizing is against UN principles.The plan was to equalize the 20% of the population with the 80% AND letting some foreigners to have the final decision in case of disagreement...

Voting down the A(u)nan plan was the ONLY sensible thing the greek-Cypriots have done. This moment Turkey is occupying EU land .... where she has no right to be.IF she wants she can keep on her forces there. She can also kiss good-bye any idea about becoming a member of EU for the next 100 years..

Simple...Either Turkey will become a law abiding country , or she can stay where she is..and how she is.

Isk.

Originally posted by iskenderani Correct. By the way , THERE IS an indipendent Democracy of Cyprus , a nattion which is recognised by UN , but its 38% of total area , is still under occupation from foreign armies.I would add also that also the British HAVE to leave the island.Their bases there r remnants of an imperialistic past and nothing more.

If Greek side accepted the UN plan Turkish army would leave the island gradually.

Originally posted by iskenderani Wrong , and it is clear that u have not following ur History lessons , thus equalizing murderes with victims.Nobody invited Turks anywhere. They attacked , and occupied the lands that they r living now , regarding the occupied people like animals or "reayas" , commiting  ethnic cleansing whenever they estimated it was for their own sake. Can u blame people fighting for their own freedom ?? .

What are you talking brainwashed man?

But you are right about your statement that  "u have not following ur History lessons ".  YOUR lessons cannot be described as lessons but sessions. And your schools are backward institutions causing hate and fascism between two nation.

You are saying that "we did not invite Turks to Cyprus". You have to learn a bit history. In Cyprus a coup d'etat has been made by Greece's colonel junda in 1974 to annex the island with Greece. Turkey as a guarantor state of the republic of Cyprus established in 1960, has the right to intervene the island and we did it. Turkish Cypriots have suffered since 1963 since Turks have been expelled from government after 1963 and their lands confiscated by illegal Greek Cypriot government. Why illegal? Since according to founding treaty of Cyprus Turks should be represented in the state too. Anyway your lovely EOKA members who were devoted right wing militants were very active on the islands. Today's president of Cyprus, Mr. Papadopoulos is one of the members of EOKA.

DO YOU WANT ME POST HERE SOME PICTURES ABOUT THEIR MASSACRES????

What reayas are you talking about? Are we still live in Ottoman Empires times. But having a church priest as a president it is for sure that your minds are still a few hundred years backward.

If you want to fight you have to be ready to die. But you want to kill without being killed. If you are killed in a war do not cry like little babies. Be and fight like a warrior or live in peace together. But you are failing to achieve any of them.  

Originally posted by iskenderani IF she wants she can keep on her forces there. She can also kiss good-bye any idea about becoming a member of EU for the next 100 years.. Simple...Either Turkey will become a law abiding country , or she can stay where she is..and how she is..

Blackmail?????  In fact I have understood that it cannot live together with people like you. Cyprus should be divided in two part. I am almost sure that ANY solution which will end up with unification will bring war not peace.

I was in favor of unification but I have to admit that I have mistaken. Or before reunification, it must be built some rehabilitation centers for people like you.

Edited by Alparslan

Originally posted by Oguzoglu No. It is some Greeks like the ones who are responsible for the murdering innocent children and families violently. Thanks our army for their justice delivery to those murderers...

Oguzoglu your claim is right but do not make turkey the side that refuses unification.As you know Turkey accepted the annan plan but it was turned down by the greeks.We are the side that wants peace.