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The Macedonian Question.
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 16:10
Add Phoenicians in small numbers mainly in the coastal areas...The Sithones for example seem to be Phoenicians.

Except from the references to the Cadmeians there is enough archeological evidence to proove it.


Edited by Flipper - 28-Mar-2008 at 16:11


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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 18:45
Ok, something else here...This starts to get crazy: http://www.pr-inside.com/macedonia-police-examine-death-threats-over-r506124.htm


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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 18:46
Originally posted by HEROI

 
s i told you,Macedonians claim an national identity based on ancient Macedonian ancestry and cultural heritage,and ancient Macedonia is nearly half of what Greece is today,thats why there is an objection,and rightly so.
I told you in the above post,Greeks who live in what used to be ancient Macedonia dont claim to be Ancient Macedonians but Greeks,and they claim the history of the ancient Macedonians in the sense that they were Greeks to.But this still is a matter for historians,while Macedonia is a state that is puting at the hart of a pseudo-nationality it wants to create ,the ancient macedonian ancestry,hitorical heritage etc,now why should that exlude the teritory of the ancient macedonia aswell,since one claims everything else,why should one stop short of claiming the land also,which is the most important element.
 
So the main objection is, Macedonia is quite obviously making a pseudo history for itself. Whereas the Greeks years ago completed completed their own pseudo history and the newly emerging Macedonian one challenges the Greek one.
 
 
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 19:13
Originally posted by Paul

 
So the main objection is, Macedonia is quite obviously making a pseudo history for itself. Whereas the Greeks years ago completed completed their own pseudo history and the newly emerging Macedonian one challenges the Greek one. 


Is it what you were able to summarize from Herois post?


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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 21:25
Originally posted by Paul

Originally posted by HEROI

 
s i told you,Macedonians claim an national identity based on ancient Macedonian ancestry and cultural heritage,and ancient Macedonia is nearly half of what Greece is today,thats why there is an objection,and rightly so.
I told you in the above post,Greeks who live in what used to be ancient Macedonia dont claim to be Ancient Macedonians but Greeks,and they claim the history of the ancient Macedonians in the sense that they were Greeks to.But this still is a matter for historians,while Macedonia is a state that is puting at the hart of a pseudo-nationality it wants to create ,the ancient macedonian ancestry,hitorical heritage etc,now why should that exlude the teritory of the ancient macedonia aswell,since one claims everything else,why should one stop short of claiming the land also,which is the most important element.
 
So the main objection is, Macedonia is quite obviously making a pseudo history for itself. Whereas the Greeks years ago completed completed their own pseudo history and the newly emerging Macedonian one challenges the Greek one.
 
 
 
While the Greeks creation of a pseudo-history included  the people who were the rightfull decendands of ancient Greek history,the Macedonians are creating a pesudo-history that threatens the cultural and territorial integrity of a neighbour state.And this i think is an big difference.
 
Having said that i still dont think that Greece is right to use a veto against Macedonia joining NATO,and to be honest with you i dont think that it will,i think is just diplomatic pressure,to try and get to a conclussion with the name issue,and it seams is working,negotiations are now at a point they would not have been if Greece would not have threatened a veto.My opinion is they will come to an conclussion before the NATO summit,or at least to a satisfactory agreement that would pave the way for the end for the matter.
 
 
 
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 21:33
What I wonder is if the Macedonians had chosen to do exactly the same, but too a western European country....... They would have laughed it off or felt flattered.
 
The Greek reaction could possibly be explained by their past, but not excused.
 
Believing yourself a descendant is dodgy history, there are no 'rightful' descendants on any place on Earth.
 
 
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 21:36

To make clear my opinion,i am not saing that the Macedonian National identity does not exist now,of course it does,but is a new Slavo-Macedonian national identity.

The problem with the Macedonian politics and suporters of it,(specially NATO and the USA,which suport Macedonia for the sake of stability in the region,so that Europe can go ahead with the much waited international gas and oil routes,and other necesities of a globalised economy),belive that Macedonia should have some historical background to survive and be a sucsesfull nation,but my opinion is that they are wrong,new nations can be very sucsesfull,indid some of the most sucsesfull nations in the world are new nations,and it does not make ones loyalty or love for the country any weaker,such as the case with the national sentiment in America.Is America to claim historical heritage of Indians?Are Americans to be proud of the ancient Indians,are they to claim that they spoke English and that they are their ancestors? (i know is a bit of an banal comparission ,but it has got many simmilarities).
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 21:52
Originally posted by HEROI

Is America to claim historical heritage of Indians?Are Americans to be proud of the ancient Indians,are they to claim that they spoke English and that they are their ancestors? (i know is a bit of an banal comparission ,but it has got many simmilarities).

 
Check out this forum, an awful lot do.....
 
So Macedonian history claim the Macedon tongue Alexander spoke is the Macedonian Language.
 
 
 
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 21:53
Originally posted by Paul

What I wonder is if the Macedonians had chosen to do exactly the same, but too a western European country....... They would have laughed it off or felt flattered.
You are quite wrong,movements such as the Basque ETA and Corsica etc in western Europe are exactly for the very same reasons,to do with national identity,and teritorial integrity of that particular people that claim to have the historical heritage on that particular territory.
 
The Greek reaction could possibly be explained by their past, but not excused.
 
Up to a point you are right,but you can not deny that any state would react the same way,or even worse and even much worse.And as i told you Greek national sentiment was created not on the expense of the  territorial integrity  of another recognised neighbour state,but in different circumstances at different times,which we can not make comparissions.Even if i give you the benefit of the doubt on this,still a wrong that Greece made a century ago can not be a right for Macedonia today.By any standarts.
 
Believing yourself a descendant is dodgy history, there are no 'rightful' descendants on any place on Earth.
 
I totaly agree with you on this,i only mentioned the fact about the very real  decendants of ancient Greece having being included into the new Greek state,unless they were shiped somwhere to Mars by the aliens.And ceirtanly this people spoke Greek and identifyed themselves as Greeks.
Just the same as the first English speakers are now part of England.etc
 
 
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 21:57
Originally posted by Paul

Originally posted by HEROI

Is America to claim historical heritage of Indians?Are Americans to be proud of the ancient Indians,are they to claim that they spoke English and that they are their ancestors? (i know is a bit of an banal comparission ,but it has got many simmilarities).

 
Check out this forum, an awful lot do.....
 
So Macedonian history claim the Macedon tongue Alexander spoke is the Macedonian Language.
 
 
 
To repeat myself again ,there ceirtanly is the element of ancient Macedonians in the Macedonians today,but they have not survived as an ethnicity with their language and tradition,so the Macedonian people today are Slavonic,and all of them identify as such.
They do indid claim Alexander spoke Macedonian,but they claim it was Slavo Macedonian
the same as the Europians living in America today claiming the Indians spoke an English language.
 
 
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 21:59
Originally posted by HEROI

Originally posted by Paul

What I wonder is if the Macedonians had chosen to do exactly the same, but too a western European country....... They would have laughed it off or felt flattered.
You are quite wrong,movements such as the Basque ETA and Corsica etc in western Europe are exactly for the very same reasons,to do with national identity,and teritorial integrity of that particular people that claim to have the historical heritage on that particular territory.
 
 
 
 
Well growing up in a country who's history has been shafted by Hollywood on a monthly basis for over half a century, but still hasn't declared war (where undoubtably the Greeks would have [could the Greeks have taken 2 300's a month for 50 years, without sending the fleet Washington bound?]) I have a slightly different perspective on this.
 
 


Edited by Paul - 28-Mar-2008 at 22:01
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 22:04
I am curious to know where you from?
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 22:06
The sig should be a clue..........
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 10:06
Originally posted by Paul

 
So Macedonian history claim the Macedon tongue Alexander spoke is the Macedonian Language.
 
they claim that he spoke slavonic or something close to that.
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 10:21
Originally posted by Paul

What I wonder is if the Macedonians had chosen to do exactly the same, but too a western European country....... They would have laughed it off or felt flattered.
 
The Greek reaction could possibly be explained by their past, but not excused.
 
Believing yourself a descendant is dodgy history, there are no 'rightful' descendants on any place on Earth.
 
 
most likely we are descended from the indigenous people the primitive Greeks took over long time ago with a splashes of neighbor x , y and z along the way. Anadolia comes up big on the older parts of our genetics. How can this makes us less 'greek' when being Greek is the some of all those parts in the first place.

We are the ones that still carry the language (not me but the point still remains) and the identity, but we have changed over time and its not linear evolution. Both same and different, so i don't think sweeping statements to the positive or the negative do any justice. Greeks can read Aristotle, in his own language - the same language he taught Alexander the Macedon. That wasn't 'constructed'



Edited by Leonidas - 29-Mar-2008 at 10:22
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 15:17
Originally posted by Paul

there are no'rightful' descendants on any place on Earth.


Very true.
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 15:42
Originally posted by Leonidas

most likely we are descended from the indigenous people the primitive Greeks took over long time ago with a splashes of neighbor x , y and z along the way. Anadolia comes up big on the older parts of our genetics. How can this makes us less 'greek' when being Greek is the some of all those parts in the first place.

We are the ones that still carry the language (not me but the point still remains) and the identity, but we have changed over time and its not linear evolution. Both same and different, so i don't think sweeping statements to the positive or the negative do any justice. Greeks can read Aristotle, in his own language - the same language he taught Alexander the Macedon. That wasn't 'constructed'


Exactly!
It is not like we suddenly appeared from nowhere. Luckily, we've been a litterate nation (more or less from time to time) that was able to record its presense eather by language, or self references (Hellenes, Grekoi, Romioi/Rum). Even during Ottoman rule we released newspapers, litterature (see for example Erotokritos by Kornaros), art and were known as traders. Foreign nations and writters recognised us as a group (see for example Voltaires  "Scarmentado") and our communities worldwide survived till today (undoubtly Egypt, Georgia,  Uzbekistan , Russia, Italy and sporadically other Asian countries).


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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 16:06
Originally posted by Paul

Check out this forum, an awful lot do.....
 
So Macedonian history claim the Macedon tongue Alexander spoke is the Macedonian Language. 


Unfortunately yes. Horribly, this is even state sponsored as well. That is the problem...Individual extremists are not a reason for political affairs, but when the state is a part in those mechanism then you have a problem. Did you know that their constitution includes terretorial claims? That is a good reason why to protest and to understand that it is not a stupid name dispute.

I will quote a Bulgarian Macedonian, specifically Dimitar Gotchev, a scholar and head of the institure of Macedonian studies in Bulgaria,who recenty stated in an interview to the Greek press:

"With the name they have now they're planning to make claims reaching Thessaloniki. Greece is right for being worried about it's terretorial boundaries. We're closely watching their expansional plans to the Greek south. They will never stop doing that. I just hope we will be able to stop this propaganda, else they will always cause you problems and try to humiliate you in front of the eyes of the EU and the world. They will say you keep the larger part of Macedonia and that Macedonia was not Greek but theirs."

http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-4430009204755981646 (29:24 in the movie is this statement for those who can understand Greek or Bulgarian).

Note that these statements are done by someone who is a so called Macedonian from Ohrid and whos ancestors were heroes of the Balkan wars claimed as Macedonians by the Slavic Macedonians.

I hope you now understand that is just a name issue and that we don't have illussions about threats.


Edited by Flipper - 29-Mar-2008 at 16:19


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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 16:16
Originally posted by HEROI

Having said that i still dont think that Greece is right to use a veto against Macedonia joining NATO,and to be honest with you i dont think that it will,i think is just diplomatic pressure,to try and get to a conclussion with the name issue,and it seams is working,negotiations are now at a point they would not have been if Greece would not have threatened a veto.My opinion is they will come to an conclussion before the NATO summit,or at least to a satisfactory agreement that would pave the way for the end for the matter. 


Heroi, I have to admit you're handling this discussion on a fair level and you get my credits for that.

Let me just comment on the veto issue. What other options do you think we have? The diplomatic discussions do not work. We don't want to do an embargo to them since the consequences are horrible and that would degrade the development of that country. Millitary action is a big nono and against Greece politics.

Since you're a Balcanoid as well Heroi and know the psychology of the area, lets say you were foreign minister of Greece. What would you do to reach a result? How would you apply pressure to bring them to the table and reach a sensible solution? Ofcourse, have in mind that an unfavourable decision to the people in Greece would result the blacklisting of your party for ever, considering that Makedonia has 2.7 million Greeks where half of them are Makedones.


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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 17:33
Originally posted by Flipper


Exactly!
It is not like we suddenly appeared from nowhere. Luckily, we've been a litterate nation (more or less from time to time) that was able to record its presense eather by language, or self references (Hellenes, Grekoi, Romioi/Rum).
 
So, what's the difference with Maks? Same evolution. Just their language was changed once in 6-7th century. They didn't appear from somewhere either. They differentiated from local nation called Bulgarians. Their culture is also of interest especially during First Bulgarian Kingdom and Bulgarian national awakening.
 
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