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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: About Divisions and Brigades
    Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 22:08
Hello to you all
 
I was wondering does anyone here has an idea on how the current military organization for units evolved, that is, when did the division, the corps, the filed army the brigade and other units become what they are now. I know that the regiment system in Britain is maybe the first standing system reaching as far back as 1669 but what about the military of other countries like France, Germany and Russia?
 
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 22:32
I think Napoleon was the first to use divisions.
He also certainly had corps, but don't know if he invented them.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 06:35
The emloyment and operation of these differes between armys and history, as a result it is very difficult to give you an accurate answer of when a modern brigade rose up, since a brigade 200 years ago may have had the same function as in one army today, yet be totally different in others. The best description given is that you have units and formations, the former the smallest military entity which can  operate independantly, the latter an HQ which coordinates the employment of many units.
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 15:27

The European concept of a "division" (self contained unit capable of independent action) seems to be a re discovery of the Roman concept of a "legion".

My guess is that the concept was re discovered during the Renaissiance and the emergence of national armies. During the middle ages, army units were raised by autonomous nobels and were identified only with him.  Thus there was less need for orgainizational structures.
 
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 19:42
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to you all
 
I was wondering does anyone here has an idea on how the current military organization for units evolved, that is, when did the division, the corps, the filed army the brigade and other units become what they are now. I know that the regiment system in Britain is maybe the first standing system reaching as far back as 1669 but what about the military of other countries like France, Germany and Russia?
 
AL-Jassas


the Regiment is way older than the post-civil war english organisation, the oldest Regiments i know are from Spain and Portugal. Brigade was apparently created by Gustav II Adolf, the Division was created by Frederick II as far as i know, and the Corps was the creation of Napoleon.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Samara Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 21:32
I read that is the creation of french revolutionnary army.
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 13:23
Regiment is originally a French word, the first "regiments" as self contained units [as opposed to retinues] might arguably be ascribed to Charles the Bold of Burgundy in the late 15th century, which were soon copied by the French and subsequerntly the rest of Europe. The first French Regiment raised was that of Picardy, AFAIK.
 
Brigades, I'd ascribe originally to the Spanish [Colonellas and Tercios], rather than the Swedes, but I'd have to look that up.
 
Divisions as formal structured units were devised again by the French who were using them by the end of the 7 Years war, prior to that the title tended to be an an alternative infromal name for any part of an army, like Advance guard, Rear guard, etc. could be called "divisions".
 
Corps I'd say is definitely French again, the idea of grouping Divisions with a headquarters into a higher command element was experimented with by the Duc de'Broglie again in the closing stages of the 7 years war and highly developed by the French by the time of the Revolution.    
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Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 15:50
Hello to you all
 
So, what about these regiments and brigades forming a standing part of the army, when did that really happen. From all my readings,which is limited considering this subject, I only can see that the Brits were the first to raise fully independent standing regiments some of them continued for almost 400 years. All the other regiments were raised and disbanded from the provincial militias which formed the majority of European armies. The Turks had the Janissaries as the worlds oldest standing military formation in the modern age and in my opinion the janissaries helped move Europe to more professional armies. Correct me if you see me wrong please.
 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:08
I'd agree most of this was French in origin. It's odd though that a brigadier in most countries would be rather put out by being classed with a brigadier in France. And British brigadiers haven't been general officers since the 'twenties, though their equivalents are in the US, France and Germany (and probably elsewhere).
 
Before the French names came into vogue, English armies in the middle ages were divided into 'battles', which you might like to think of as divisions or corps. The equivalent of a regiment (in the British sense of a unit raised from a locality or by an individual) was the company (as in White Company for instance), which nowadays is a much smaller unit.
 
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 20:23
Originally posted by Challenger2

Divisions as formal structured units were devised again by the French who were using them by the end of the 7 Years war, prior to that the title tended to be an an alternative infromal name for any part of an army, like Advance guard, Rear guard, etc. could be called "divisions".


its definately Fredericks invention, i have looked it up and Prussia had divsionary generals and i mean from the outset, so this not French.

about Regiments, that is complicated. AFAIK the oldest line regiments are those of Portugal and Spain, though descendants of Tercios. if you include the Guard though, the oldest is French, but they originated as Compagnies d'Ordonance, so we are about to ask the origin of the company (and battalion?).
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 20:29
Originally posted by gcle2003

I'd agree most of this was French in origin. It's odd though that a brigadier in most countries would be rather put out by being classed with a brigadier in France. And British brigadiers haven't been general officers since the 'twenties, though their equivalents are in the US, France and Germany (and probably elsewhere).


this rank (Brigadegeneral) only exists since the NATO in Germany...
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 12:51
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Challenger2

Divisions as formal structured units were devised again by the French who were using them by the end of the 7 Years war, prior to that the title tended to be an an alternative infromal name for any part of an army, like Advance guard, Rear guard, etc. could be called "divisions".


its definately Fredericks invention, i have looked it up and Prussia had divsionary generals and i mean from the outset, so this not French.
 
I agree Frederick someitmes grouped two or more Brigades together under the command of a senior General to facilitate manouvre, but I've not come across him having ever established a formal Divisional structure for his army, nor any examples of its use in practice. In battle, the Prussian army deployed and fought along the standard "linear warfare" methods of the time [Oblique order manoeuvre notwithstanding], i.e. Two long lines with some reserve units forming a third. Cavalry on the flanks, etc. During the march, his army tended to split into several columns led by it's own senior general, but these never fought or manouvered as self contained units. De Broglie experimented with a permanent structured "combined arms" formation consisting of two or more Infantry Brigades with a "brigade" or battery of artillery and a few squadrons of dragoons.  This was the precursor of the modern Division. I'd be interested in any information you have to the contrary.    
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 17:23
Divisions (the combined arms unit capable of independent operations) were used in Poland for example during 'the deluge' (1655-1660). The Polish name was and is 'dywizja'.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 11:15
That may well be true, but 'dywizja' is hardly a Slav word in origin.
 
'Battles' were combined-arms units capable of independent operation too.


Edited by gcle2003 - 02-Apr-2008 at 11:17
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 17:58
Originally posted by Challenger2

 
I agree Frederick someitmes grouped two or more Brigades together under the command of a senior General to facilitate manouvre, but I've not come across him having ever established a formal Divisional structure for his army, nor any examples of its use in practice. In battle, the Prussian army deployed and fought along the standard "linear warfare" methods of the time [Oblique order manoeuvre notwithstanding], i.e. Two long lines with some reserve units forming a third. Cavalry on the flanks, etc. During the march, his army tended to split into several columns led by it's own senior general, but these never fought or manouvered as self contained units. De Broglie experimented with a permanent structured "combined arms" formation consisting of two or more Infantry Brigades with a "brigade" or battery of artillery and a few squadrons of dragoons.  This was the precursor of the modern Division. I'd be interested in any information you have to the contrary.    


what you refer to is a battle formation, not an organizational formation. Frederick of Wrttemberg commanded an independent Division in the North against Swedes & Russians for example.


Edited by Temujin - 02-Apr-2008 at 17:58
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 18:02
Originally posted by gcle2003

That may well be true, but 'dywizja' is hardly a Slav word in origin.
 
It's not. Polish word 'dywizja' probably derives from Latin 'divisio' (a division) or maybe from 'divisa' (a banner).
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Posts: 178 		  Quote Cataln Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 18:08
In the Spanish Army, there are division-like units (probably better defined as a brigade) called Tercios (thirds) (i.e. El Tercio de la Armada, and el Tercio de Extranjeros ... which is now just 'La Legin' (no longer a foreign legion) and subdivided into multiple tercios).  These have battalion-sized units called banderas (flags).  Otherwise, previous to when Spain had decidated landing craft (first usage of landing crafts was probably in early 1925 and during the landings at Alhucemas in September 1925), ships had landing parties known as trozos (pieces) or larger parties (for larger ships) know as columnas (columns).  During the Carlist Wars and during the Spanish Civil War there were, of course, also requets - division-type units.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 19:01
Originally posted by ataman

 
It's not. Polish word 'dywizja' probably derives from Latin 'divisio' (a division) or maybe from 'divisa' (a banner).


sometimes in the cavalry battalion and division is used interchangably for a grouping of squadrons within a Regiment.
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 19:27
Originally posted by Temujin

sometimes in the cavalry battalion and division is used interchangably for a grouping of squadrons within a Regiment.
 
Do you write about 17th c.?
Anyway, Polish 'dywizja' in 17th c. wasn't a part of a regiment. Dywizja was composed of different units (cavalry, dragoons, etc.) and was much more numerous than any single regiment of its time. 'Dywizje' (it's a plural form in Polish) acted separately or together - it depended on a situation. Usually they joined to wage a bigger battle.


Edited by ataman - 02-Apr-2008 at 19:34
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Apr-2008 at 19:36
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Challenger2

 
I agree Frederick someitmes grouped two or more Brigades together under the command of a senior General to facilitate manouvre, but I've not come across him having ever established a formal Divisional structure for his army, nor any examples of its use in practice. In battle, the Prussian army deployed and fought along the standard "linear warfare" methods of the time [Oblique order manoeuvre notwithstanding], i.e. Two long lines with some reserve units forming a third. Cavalry on the flanks, etc. During the march, his army tended to split into several columns led by it's own senior general, but these never fought or manouvered as self contained units. De Broglie experimented with a permanent structured "combined arms" formation consisting of two or more Infantry Brigades with a "brigade" or battery of artillery and a few squadrons of dragoons.  This was the precursor of the modern Division. I'd be interested in any information you have to the contrary.    


what you refer to is a battle formation, not an organizational formation. Frederick of Wrttemberg commanded an independent Division in the North against Swedes & Russians for example.


This is interesting stuff I've not come across before. Have you any links or sources I could look at?
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