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How does Mongolians feel about Han Chinese?

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    Posted: 03-Sep-2008 at 04:44
Thank you Sarmat and Eventhorizon. I regret very much that Clive has taken us so far off topic. Let me try to get us back to topic with this article.

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China’s Information Restriction Policy in Southern Mongolia

The Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region (IMAR) was established in 1947 as the first Autonomous Region in China, with the promise of a high level of autonomous rights, as written in the Chinese Constitution. During the Sino-Japanese War, Mao went so far as to say that the people of Southern Mongolia might become independent after the War of Resistance. Seen through the eyes of history, this promise was only a pretext by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in their drive to exert control over Southern Mongolia. This did in fact happen following World War II, with the collapse of the Kuomintang government. The PLA occupied Southern Mongolia in 1947 and this occupation continues until today. Mao’s promise of independence was never realized and the IMAR never really gained any of the autonomous rights as mentioned in the Chinese Constitution. One particularly egregious example of the control exerted over Southern Mongolia by the CCP during the past 60+ years has been the extremely repressive policy of information control.

But the policy of strict information control was not the only repressive policy rolled out by the CCP in the process of consolidating their control over the IMAR. In 1959, the Inner Mongolian Cavalry was sent to Tibet to quell the Tibetan protests. Following the successful suppression of protests in Tibet, the Mongol troops were quickly disbanded. As a result, Southern Mongolia lost their army. At the same time, the CCP implemented an emigration policy encouraging Han farmers from faraway provinces to enter Southern Mongolia to turn the pasturelands into farmland. It’s beyond the scope of this discussion to point out the environmental disasters and desertification that has ensued as a result of this misguided policy but during the period 1949-1960 especially, and continuing to today, millions of Han Chinese entered Southern Mongolia. As a result, this population shift diluted dramatically the native Mongol population with the proportion of ethnic Mongols decreasing to below 20% today. With these two policies, the Chinese government essentially neutralized any threat of a concerted Mongol military action in the event that a Mongol leadership arose that could exploit the army, and simultaneously turned the Mongols into a minority in their own lands. This of course meant that competition for economic and other resources would be more or less in favor of the Han. There was little consideration paid to Mongol interests. Another equally insidious social policy which also didn’t come down from previous Chinese governments or regimes, was to make concrete the Sun Yat-sen republican slogan of the ‘Five Peoples’ and force the new name “Chinese People” on all the minority groups in China. Refusal to accept this new label meant you were a separatist, which made it easy for the CCP to suspend any of the autonomous rights sections of the Constitution. So the CCP had a built-in mechanism for making minority rights provisions of the Constitution completely null and void merely by labeling someone or some group a separatist. 

So how has the information restriction policy been implemented in the IMAR?  Essentially it has meant a complete blockade of information exchange through any media between the IMAR and the country of Mongolia. The aim of this policy was to remove the influence of Mongolia in the Southern Mongolian region. This particular dynamic started from the earliest days of the IMAR and continues to the present. As a result, most Southern Mongols do not even know who the President of Mongolia is or anything about the situation in Mongolia, or vice versa. One rather benign relaxation of the information control policy was that beginning in the 1980`s, the restriction on Mongol songs and music was relaxed somewhat. But even today, it’s very difficult for Mongols to obtain access to distribution rights and manufacture of musical and artistic media.  

One consequence among many of these government social and information control policies has been the marginalization of the Mongol citizenry from mainstream society. Information control has served to isolate the Southern Mongols psychologically from their brethren in Mongolia, as well as the rest of the outside world. And it has worked both ways, the outside world and Mongolia have little knowledge of the history and events that have affected the Mongols of IMAR. In this way, the policies have achieved their objective, to eliminate any capability of the Mongols to establish a political consciousness and forge a unified body politic. An isolated minority group incapable of rallying around a core political or national consciousness with trivial economic and military options can be easily ruled, and equally important, will be easily assimilated into the ocean of the Han Chinese population. So today, in the IMAR, the Han control the vast proportion of the politics and economy of the IMAR and yet the CCP continues to remain hugely suspicious of their Mongol citizens (referred to in the official press as “Mongolian brothers and sisters”) with their continuing policies of information control, denial of human rights and frequent jailings of ‘separatists’. No imperialist power in history has been as successful as the CCP in manipulating their people.

In 1987, President Reagen made his famous speech in Berlin, asking ‘Mr. Gorbachev, tear this wall down.” It’s regrettable that on his recent visit to Beijing, President Bush did not echo these famous words and demand “Mr. Hu, tear this information blockade wall down.”


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  Quote eventhorizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 22:08
I second sarmat12 on this opinion, and I should add that majority of Inner/South Mongolians probably also support SanjAltan's view point. There will always be sell outs for personal financial gain. Clive, my friend, keep up the good work of creating employment for South Mongolians and lets agree to disagree on our points of view.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 18:03
Yelu Chucai was a Khitan, another Mongolic tribe. Not a very good example. Khitans were treated as equals by Mongols. Wink
 
Secondly Genghis khan minisiries isn't really a very authentic source for his history. It's rather a distorted movie not complitely historically correct and created in order to appeal to the Chinese public. That's why it's so unpopular in the Outer Mongolia.
 
Thridly, whatever you say, but Outer Mongols in general are not really fond of China. It's another question whether it's good or bad. But the fact is that SanjAltan is expressing real Mongol sentiments more accurate than you.
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 16:01
Yeliu ChuCai worked within the ranks of the Mongols and became the 2nd most powerful
man in the Mongol empire.
 
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 15:58
You seem to be more vague than me.
To rely on your so called "alliances" is a big pipe dream that will never be.
You also have to realize, many times, simple solutions are THE solutions to complicated
problems. And complicated problems have very humble beginnings.
Comments without a solution roadmap and actions are just "empty talk" or" hot air".
My wife's family's success  is because of :
1. Hard work
2. perseverance/patience
3. Faith in Kokok Taengri
This made them for what they and many in inner mongolia .
When was the last time you visited Inner Mongolia?
I suggest you visit another website:
and I suggest you make a trip to Inner Mongolia and see for yourself what is happening
as we speak.
I thank you for your reply. And I apologize for blowing up at you last week. But I want
you to realize that I pity such a good Mongol like you , terribly lacking in common sense
and the ways of the world.
I would greatly appreciate if you can do the following:
1. Watch the Chinggis miniseries once more, pay close attention to the way Chinggis
behaves both to his friends , enemies and betrayers, and LEARN FROM HIM!
2. Visit Inner Mongolia and have a sanity check.
3. Please be REAL!
I am upset because I love all Mongols , they are like brothers and sisters to me , even
if I am not one of them, and to see a Mongol not think right, just burns my heart.
r's
Clive
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:38
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Take my wife's family, they are now one of the biggest herders of cattle and sheep.The Hans like Lamb hotpot and have a growing appetite for steak, my father in law brought some Herefords from Austrailia and Argentina, and now they are growing in big numbers in Urad grasslands around Tongliao in Khorchin. Many mongolian families now have internet , satellite TV , wide screen TVs etc.. They clearly know how to deal with Beijing, and this should be a lesson to ALL minorities in China. My wife's nephews all go to the best schools like Beida, or Qinghua, and go abroad to Germany , Austrailia and the U.S. (one just arrived for Fall QUarter at  Univ.Wisconsin, Madison, for her PHD in Theoretical Physics).

 

I guess the first thing is to congratulate your wife’s family on their business success and hope that they are hiring many of their less fortunate Mongol brothers and sisters who are being forced to move from their ancestral herding pastures to cities and other areas where they have no means of support. But how you realistically think that your wife’s family represents the typical Mongol family? At best, they’re a great example of what everyone (Han as well as non-Han) should aspire to, at worst they’re party connected members of the elite who have been given all sorts of privileges that have paved the way to their success. Maybe you can come up with some sort of business plan to make it possible for the penniless herdsman and his family to find a similar path to personal economic success. In fact, maybe that can be your mission now to put your money where your mouth is, and show that even despite the repressive conditions of a bully nation, some of these poor herders can make it too. I’d be interested in hearing about your success rate and what kind of difference you’ve made in even one herdsman’s life.    

 

 

Many of the top mongol students from Inner Mongolia outperform their Han counterparts

in the IVY league schools in Beijing, Jilin, Harbin etc..

 

Irrelevant to the discussion.  

 

Do not worry about Inner Mongolia, they know what they are doing, and are doing it right.

 

Yes you’d like that wouldn’t you. Everyone should just shut up and not comment on the bully nations’ behavior, they should do as they please. What a wonderful world we’d have then?  Thanks for your unsolicited advice, but no thanks. There’s lots to be worried about if you have an honest interest in the future of the Mongols of China. And where does your authority arise from in advising others about what’s right or not right in IM.   

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:37
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Revolution will not solve the problem. Look what happened to Gada Meiren and De Wang .

 

Reference to Gada Meiren and De Wang is completely irrelevant to the discussion. But the fact of the matter is that Revolution is the solution, but not in the way you understand it.  

 

The people of Inner Mongolia do not need your tears and sympathy , they are already exceeding their goals, and even helping their Khalkha brothers in the R.M.

 

No tears or sympathy are being proferred, although I can understand that that’s your perception of what I’m saying. And what goals are you talking about? You mean the Central government’s 5-year economic plans and goals which call for the resettling of hundreds of thousands of Mongol herdsmen to cities, with little compensation or attention to the incredible hardships this is imposing on them. The closing of all Mongol language schools? You demonstrate little respect for human rights in your insistence on economic success as the solution to real human problems being experienced on a national scale.    

 

They have evolved themselves to a point wherein they now have some strong leverage

vs. the regime in Beijing. Wind Power , natural gas, and dairy products are being exported by companies ran by Inner Mongolians ( genuine mongolians, not Hans) who have

laughed and ridiculed the Han regime in Beijing many times over . They do not love Beijing, but they are much smarter than people like yourself, because they found the correct path to success.

 

Who has evolved? Do you mean that they were some low species at some point and they’ve somehow developed on the evolutionary ladder and they’re pretty high now, maybe close to where you are? Sounds too Darwinian and exposes your biases. But, it ties in because you believe they’ve evolved and I haven’t because they’re smarter than people such as me. OK, let me accept that you’re right, they are smarter than me. Up till now, none of us writing on this topic have personally been the targets of discussion so let me accept whatever you have to say about me personally so we can move on. On that score though, I am surprised to hear that some of your associates do not love Beijing and that some have laughed and ridiculed the Han regime. My experience has been that such people have not retained their freedom for very long in the repressive environment of China. Could it be that some of your associates in China are closet revolutionaries? It seems that to gain your respect, one has to work within whatever the system allows, accept economic principles as the road to success over human rights and as long as one’s  personal success is assured, the Mongol people’s collective success is of little consequence. And if you can do that, then you are allowed to laugh and ridicule and not love the regime you live under. Kind of a silly scenario but worse, it sounds too hollow. But that is apparently what you would have us all do to make this a better world.  I don’t think so.    

 

And your comments attesting to the success of Mongol businesses too is not completely grounded in fact.  You had mentioned the Yili and Mengniu milk companies. These two companies are neither owned nor run by Mongols. In their business practices, they have exploited Mongol natural resources, plundered Mongolian herders' dairy products and lied to the world that they are Mongolian businesses. Last year, at the indigenous peoples’ congress in Switzerland, when samples of these two dairy companies' products were presented for comparison with other dairy products from other indigenous groups, representatives from other countries spit out the cheese made by these two companies. It was sugary and completely unnatural. The Mongols themselves rejected their products long ago. Again, you’re kind of giving the message that human values should be irrelevant to a business, just generate revenue and we’ll all be happy. I think not. Life is more than that even in the midst of a bully nation.  

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 20:36
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First, let me offer an apology to readers for this long reply. I regret that we’re wandering so far off topic but in view of his ad hominem attacks, I felt that some response was in order. So please bear with me.

What then is the point of this discussion?

Well one point is for you to try to appreciate that we all have different points of view on this important question of how bully nations behave, and no one individual can claim to have the right answers to a very complex question. If you had bothered to go back and read what Eventhorizon (E), Sarmat and others have been discussing, you would have seen various viewpoints surrounding the central issue of what E. calls ‘bully nation’ as a 20-21st century manifestation of historical imperialism. I think many of us agree that China heads the list right now and that’s not to say there aren’t others. E. is a proponent of multi-national alliances to counter this. It appears that you solution is much simpler, everyone just do their best to go out and make some money. So simple, and like most simple solutions to complex problems, almost useless in the broader scheme of things.   

Is it to bring grievances about the Hans?

Certainly people have the right to express their grievances but unfortunately, in a ‘bully’ country, such rights and other human rights are routinely denied. So it’s particularly important for people living in free and democratic countries to speak out on behalf of the oppressed peoples of the world. Many of them are subject to arrest and imprisonment if they do. For you to claim that economic success is the only way to counter this is just plain silly and implies a total lack of understanding of the realities on the ground in your cherished Han nation. One reason for this may be that you have only seen a very narrow and biased slice of Mongol society in China.   

If this is the main point of the discussion, I brought up my point  as clear as a bell.

The Hans can only be dealt with by being better than them.  

 

‘Better than them’ is not only vague and subjective but cannot be an operating principle for how nations and peoples in the world interact with one another. Does anyone know what this means, including you? But hearing your thoughts, you probably mean better is having 1 more Rmb than you. It allies itself with the capitalist ideal, let all compete and let the best/most efficient win. Sorry, that principle guarantees that some will be losers, as we’re seeing examples of all over the place right now and that’s hardly a prescription for success in general, especially with respect to the Mongols of China. They are at a serious disadvantage for many reasons. I’ll leave it to you as an assignment to figure out why that is and I’ll even give you a hint, which you totally ignored once before. Go to www.smhric.org, and read some of the material there, instead of pretending to have looked at it, as you did in your previous email. Try hard to get a little broader perspective on Mongol life in China that goes beyond just your wife’s family. No disrespect intended to your wife or her family in that statement.  

 

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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 01:48

What then is the point of this discussion?

. Is it to bring grievances about the Hans?

If this is the main point of the discussion, I brought up my point  as clear as a bell.

The Hans can only be dealt with by being better than them.

Revolution will not solve the problem. Look what happened to

Gada Meiren and De Wang .

The people of Inner Mongolia do not need your tears and sympathy , they are already

exceeding their goals, and even helping their Khalkha brothers in the R.M.

They have evolved themselves to a point wherein they now have some strong leverage

vs. the regime in Beijing. Wind Power , natural gas, and dairy products are being exported by companies ran by Inner Mongolians ( genuine mongolians, not Hans) who have

laughed and ridiculed the Han regime in Beijing many times over . They do not love Beijing, but they are much smarter than people like yourself, because they found the correct path to success.

Take my wife's family, they are now one of the biggest herders of cattle and sheep.

The Hans like Lamb hotpot and have a growing appetite for steak, my father in law

brought some Herefords from Austrailia and Argentina, and now they are growing in big numbers in Urad grasslands around Tongliao in Khorchin.

Many mongolian families now have internet , satellite TV , wide screen TVs etc..

They clearly know how to deal with Beijing, and this should be a lesson to ALL minorities

in China. My wife's nephews all go to the best schools like Beida, or Qinghua, and go

abroad to Germany , Austrailia and the U.S. (one just arrived for Fall QUarter at Univ.Wisconsin, Madison, for her PHD in Theoretical Physics).

Many of the top mongol students from Inner Mongolia outperform their Han counterparts
in the IVY league schools in Beijing, Jilin, Harbin etc..
 
Do not worry about Inner Mongolia, they know what they are doing, and are doing it right.
 
Clive

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 00:09
Clive,

I think the 'explosion' and the anger and hate you repeatedly allude to seems to be concentrated in your vicinity, as seen in your petulant outburst. I did not mean to offend, I really did mean that you should find a forum where all the music that you're so wild about can be discussed freely and extensively without distracting serious discussants from the main ideas here.

Much luck, something tells me you will need it.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 23:27
cleeveersknell,
as a moderator, I give you the warning with regard to your violation of the Code of Conduct of AE. Ad hominem attacks are prohibited in this forum.
 
SanjAltan although critical of your posts didn't call you any "names."  You should respect other co-forumers and answer to their cirticism with dignity and respect.
 
This is my first warning to you. Aftwerwards, if you get the second one, you can be banned according to CoC of AE.
 
Please make yourself familiar with CoC.
 
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 29-Aug-2008 at 23:28
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  Quote eventhorizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 23:08
Originally posted by cliveersknell

You seem to be full of anger and hate.
Chinggis up there will definitely not approve of your behavior.
Your anger and hatred will just do the following;
1. Give the Hans more ammunition in their bullying.
2. Show to the world you are the biggest CRYBABY, who only whines but has no path
towards solution.
3. Show to the world that you are the biggest congenital idiot and a shame to the mongol people.
the people of inner mongolia are much smarter than what you think, they have transformed
their region into a high GDP region and are turning the tables on the Hans.
Idiots and morons like you are not welcomed in Inner Mongolia, just rot to death in the
forsaken slum you are in the US.
 
 
Clive
 
This kind of language and attitude is absolutely uncalled for. I understand that your wife is Mongol, but this does not give you the license to speak on behalf of all people of South Mongolia. While no one person has the monopoly on point of view, we should present facts in public forums like this and let the facts and evidence speak for themselves and not pass excessive subjective judgment by ourselves, specially if we are newcomers and outsiders to a region. Please present your opinions and points of view with a little more respect towards others who disagree with your opinions and points of view. Lets keep some civility and dignity here and lets refrain from ad hominem personal attacks.
 
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 22:43
You seem to be full of anger and hate.
Chinggis up there will definitely not approve of your behavior.
Your anger and hatred will just do the following;
1. Give the Hans more ammunition in their bullying.
2. Show to the world you are the biggest CRYBABY, who only whines but has no path
towards solution.
3. Show to the world that you are the biggest congenital idiot and a shame to the mongol people.
the people of inner mongolia are much smarter than what you think, they have transformed
their region into a high GDP region and are turning the tables on the Hans.
Idiots and morons like you are not welcomed in Inner Mongolia, just rot to death in the
forsaken slum you are in the US.
 
 
Clive
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 20:05
You know with that last comment, it's pretty clear, at least to me, that you're not really  interested in adding much value to this discussion.
 
Maybe you can find a another forum where your broad knowledge of Mongol music can be better appreciated. Discussions concerning Tengger, Saraa, etc and Chinese bullyism are separate topics, and you're not getting it.  
 
Thanks for your interest though.
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 15:57

Sanj Altan

I went in , thanks for the websites, enjoyed it! Hurd is not one of my favorites though
I like  Serchmaa (Sally) , Jahvlan, Bayasgalan and Delgermaa- RM
from Inner Mongolia : Tengger, Ha Lin, Ingermaa, Buren Bayaar, Halibuqiqige, Saren Gerile,
.
I am not a rock fan, I like smooth flowing music, like the Onon , Kerulen and Selenga.
 
thanks and best regards
clive
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 04:07
You exaggerate don't you think when you characterize my comments as an explosion? If you bothered to read them, you'd see that most of them are questions and challenges to your poor understanding of the issues being discussed here? Challenges to you to get more informed and get beyond your obsession with Mongol music being played on Chinese government approved websites, not to mention the disinformation you've brought to this discussion.    

I don't accept your recommendation that I be like Chinggis, no Mongol would even think of being compared with Chinggis, for there is no comparison, on any level. That is why you will never find a Mongol child named after him, can't be done.  You were right when you said that you needed to learn much about the Mongols.
 
I do agree with your comment that more jobs and the economy is a problem in RM, but I don't agree that we do that ignoring the violation of human rights going on in Southern Mongolia being perpetrated by the government that you seek so mightily to whitewash. Improving the Mongol economy is certainly a worthy goal, so let me say thanks, if that's what you're doing. 

Finally, how about an even trade. I'll go to one of the websites you've mentioned if you go to www.smhric.org and read a couple of the articles, at least maybe as long as one or two  Hurd songs. If you can do that, I'll believe your claim that you wish to learn much about the Mongols. Sofar, you've learned very little other than how to put into practice some of your capitalist desires. Let me hasten to make clear again, that that is not a bad thing, lest you misinterpret my words again, but do you really think that that has given you adequate background to intelligently engage in these discussions?    Think carefully before you respond.
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 01:53
SanjAltan
Why don't you keep your cool, and not explode? It is bad for your health, be like
Chinggis, calmn , deep thinking and sympathetic.
Please visit the websites I suggested, and listen to the music there.
The biggest problem now is how to generate more jobs and uplift the economy of
R.M. This should be the focus.
Go to www.mgwhw.com/simplified chinese/MTV/Hurd
you can hear and see all the HURD MTV you want. They were in Hohhot last month
when I was visiting.
r's
Clive
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 00:47
I'm not clear on what you are driving at when you say 'making money is the way to beat the Hans at their own game'. Who wants to beat the Han at their own game?  Is this meant to be understood as a general principle that you believe in of how to achieve happiness and success? Your advice is somewhere between sloganeering and condescending.  Making money and the pursuit of the dollar, or the Rmb, doesn't in and of itself address the main issues being raised in previous comments regarding human rights and cultural preservation.  You provide evidence of a handful of successful Mongol entrepreneurs. How does the economic success of a very few individuals in any way ameliorate the denial of basic human rights to the vast numbers of Mongol nomads who have been forced off their ancestral lands?  How does their success in any way address the suffering endured by Mr. Hada, 12+ years in a filthy inhumane Chinese prison merely for trying to preserve Mongol culture? How will the drive for profit improve the environmental devastation going on in  the Mongol grasslands?  Maybe you're looking through rose colored glasses, completely focused on economic considerations, and have no clue about the importance of basic human values.  Check www.smhric.org for a more objective view.

And I'm completely baffled by the reference to a cultural fusion between RM and China mediated by the Mongols of China. What is it? You mean Mongols on both sides of the border listen to some common music, so that's cultural fusion? As recently as October 2006, the Mongol band Khurd was denied a venue at IM University, completely arbitrarily. Another example of the authorities' fear of Mongols wanting to appreciate their own culture. Mongols in China are routinely denied the right to print and distribute their own literature and music unless there's some politically connected person who's pulling strings. Everything has to be 'approved' by some official who has to make sure that no latent Mongol nationalism is being espoused, it could lead to splittism.  Cultural fusion sounds like something you would say if your were promoting an agenda for the sinicization of the Mongols. Cultural fusion is not a term something most Mongols I know would welcome or accept regarding whatever interactions exist between the two.
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  Quote cliveersknell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 21:02
Yes, per my wife, he is descended from the line of Jagatai
he is a mongol from Xinjiang.
r's
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2008 at 19:41
It's interesting, that Ba Sen, the actor who played Genhis in the miniseries, just has played the epic Chinese hero, Guan Yu in the new blockbuster, "Red Cliff."
 
BTW is that true that Ba Sen is a descendant of Genghiz Khan?


Edited by Sarmat12 - 28-Aug-2008 at 20:28
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