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Three Popes of the Great Schism

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TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Three Popes of the Great Schism
    Posted: 12-Sep-2011 at 13:51
I had heard that at some time in the past the Catholic church had a great split, and found themselves with two Popes instead of the one experienced at present. Whoever it would seem things were somewhat more complicated, leading to a period when the church found itself with a third Pope. The following gives an explanation as to how this situation occurred:
Question- So how did we get Three Popes at the same time?


It all started with the Babylonian Captivity which began in 1309. The Archbishop of Bordeaux had recently become Pope and he noticed that Italy of the day displayed the sort of political stability today associated with Sierra Leone. So he moved the Papacy to the fortress town of Avignon in Provence, France. It was secure, it was fief of a vassal of Rome (so technically was Roman, not French) and it was in Provence. The time the Papacy was in Avignon is referred to as the Babylonian Captivity by later critics who saw a parallel with the forced exodus of the Israelites to Babylon from ancient times.

But what was Rome without the Pope in the 14th Century? Not a lot decided the people and cardinals alike. In 1328-1330 they tried declaring Nicholas V the true Pope - but it turned out he was an Anti-Pope because he was the first to back down when the Popes faced off. Avignon remained the seat of the Papacy until March 1378 when the real, actual and un-anti Pope Gregory XI died whilst in Rome.

Fearing the wrath of the Roman crowd, the cardinals elected Urban VI - who was Italian, but thought to be sympathetic to Avignon's claim on the Pope's HQ. As it turned out Urban was sympathetic to absolutely no one. Within months he had ticked off all and sundry - and his election was declared null and void by a bunch of Avignon-loving cardinals who packed their bags and elected Robert of Geneva to be the new Pope (Clement VII) when they got back home to Provence.

Urban VI might have become another in a long line of Anti-Popes with reigns of less than a few months - but for the support he had from the Italian public, some Rome-loving cardinals, England and Flanders. He decided to stay Pope and sit back in Rome until his death in 1389. His successor was Boniface IX (1389-1404) who even got Portugal supporting him, strengthening the claim for Rome as the Papal Seat.

Meanwhile in Avignon, the other Pope garnered the support of France, Scotland, Aragon, Castille and lots of little German states. Clem 7 wasn't backing down and as far as he was concerned Urban VI should be called 'the other Pope' by amateur historians writing for h2g2.com and not him. When Clem 7 died in 1394, Avignon elected a Spaniard the new Pope: Benedict XIII. 13 was not their lucky number. Benedict was such a mongrel that even France (who started the whole Captivity) declared there was no Pope (not two, not one, but none!) from 1398 to 1403 and after patching things up, again from 1408 to 1409.

Rome was running smoother - with Innocent VII dying after two years and Gregory XII replacing him. But the general Catholic theological community decided having two, one and no Popes all at the same time was looking a bit strange. In 1409 they met at Pisa and decided it would best for all concerned if they declared Greg XII and Ben XIIIboth null and void and elect a new Pope - let's call him Alexander V.

France decided there was a Pope after all - Alexander V (the Council of Pisa had been their idea after all). Ben XIII and Greg XII decided the Council was stupid and that when all was said and done - they were both the one, true pontiff (along with the third Pope). When Alexander V died in 1410 the two Pope situation briefly emerged - except a successor to Alex V was elected - this being Pope John XXIII So, back to Three Popes.

John XXIII lacked the support of several major nations which he'd need to get Ben and Greg to stand down. Then there was John's personality. Within five years he'd lost most of his support. With all the nations of Europe calling for a solution, John convened the Council of Constance. The Council promptly deposed both Benedict XIII andJohn XXIII. The third Pope - Gregory XII of Rome - declared 'you cant fire me, 'coz I quit' or Latin words to those effect. This was good fortune for him - because there was a strong Catholic tenet of the time which held that 'no power could depose the true pope.'

Martin V was elected in 1415 as the Pope. That's all. Just Pope Martin. Of course Benedict XIII refused to believe the comedy was over and even after he was carted off to a Spanish castle to live in exile for the rest of his days he kept sending out ex-communications against people he didn't like, signed Pope Benedict XIII.

So who was the Anti-Pope? or Anti-Popes? Well, because Gregory XII stood down voluntarily and thus was not removed, he is considered to be the Real, Actual, True, One Pope up to 1414. Thus his line - the Urban line or the Roman line - is now described as the Popes. Everyone else - all four of them - are Anti-Popes. Martin V returned to Rome, where Greg had left off and Catholicism was basically back on track... well except for the massive rift the whole cock-up had created through Europe which almost instantly brought about the Reformation and Protestantism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1117324 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Karalem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2011 at 15:46
Martin Luther called  Roman papacy the Babylonian whore. 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2011 at 16:09
And many today still believe the pope is the Antichrist
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  Quote Michael Collins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2011 at 17:25

Originally posted by Nick1986

And many today still believe the pope is the Antichrist


Can you expand on this please? I wouldn't have thought that the likes of Paisley constituted "many" - God help us if they do.

Is í labhairt a dteanga an moladh is mó is féidir linn a thabhairt dár namhaid.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2011 at 17:40
There's also a lot of churches stateside that are no friends of the pope. They seem to believe the antichrist is an institution rather than a man: the papacy
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  Quote Michael Collins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2011 at 18:25

Originally posted by Nick1986

There's also a lot of churches stateside that are no friends of the pope. They seem to believe the antichrist is an institution rather than a man: the papacy


And, I suppose that like Paisley they're basing it on the highly ambiguous verse in revelation about Kings and Seven Hills and Dragons or whatnot? 

Is í labhairt a dteanga an moladh is mó is féidir linn a thabhairt dár namhaid.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Sep-2011 at 19:11
Most likely. The seven hills were supposed to represent the city of Rome. Several medieval popes did behave in an antichrist-like way, abusing their powers to start wars of aggression and engaging in fornication
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  Quote Michael Collins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2011 at 15:53

Originally posted by Nick1986

Most likely. The seven hills were supposed to represent the city of Rome. Several medieval popes did behave in an antichrist-like way, abusing their powers to start wars of aggression and engaging in fornication


No Doubt. I wonder, have you ever read any of our current Pope's works? Are they available in your locality?

Is í labhairt a dteanga an moladh is mó is féidir linn a thabhairt dár namhaid.
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2011 at 20:30
The current pope was supposedly very liberal in the 1970s before becoming a champion of conservatism. At one time he wanted to abolish clerical-celibacy
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2011 at 21:31
Originally posted by Michael Collins

Originally posted by Nick1986

Most likely. The seven hills were supposed to represent the city of Rome. Several medieval popes did behave in an antichrist-like way, abusing their powers to start wars of aggression and engaging in fornication


No Doubt. I wonder, have you ever read any of our current Pope's works? Are they available in your locality?

 
 
I myself when younger engaged in such behaviorWink... tho I question whether I abused any power to start a war of aggression. Might have aided and abetted someone in my government, as another might define it, but doubt even that.
 
And I am not a Pope.
 
Just a poor sinner.LOL
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  Quote Michael Collins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2011 at 14:53

With Respect Nick, that's no answer.


Perhaps Ol' CV is the Anti-Christ ... well, depending on who you speak to LOL

Is í labhairt a dteanga an moladh is mó is féidir linn a thabhairt dár namhaid.
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2011 at 18:01
Originally posted by Michael Collins

With Respect Nick, that's no answer.

Perhaps Ol' CV is the Anti-Christ ... well, depending on who you speak to LOL




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