QuoteReplyTopic: Balkans, an Irano-Germanic land! Posted: 17-Jul-2013 at 03:42
We know before the Slavic peoples, some Iranian and Germanic peoples, such as Scythians and Goths, lived in the Balkans, the name of Balkan linguistically has a Germanic origin but it is interesting that there is also a region with the same name in the northeast of Iran and Turkmenistan.
As you read about the English word Balcony: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony this word can be related to both Old High German "balcho" and Persian term "balkane". And we read about Balkans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans it may have derived from the the same Persian "balkane" which means "high, above, or proud house".
If we consider Indo-European sound changes, the Germanic sound "k" should be changed to "z/s" in the Iranian langauges, like English "knee" and Avestan "znu" from PIE root *gno, so English "Balk" is cognate to Avestan "Barz" (There is no "L" in sound in the Avestan language). This Avestan word can be found in the name of Alborz (Hara Barzant) and Barez mountain in Iran. Look at this thread: If Persia is Bara'se 2296 BC how old is the Avesta
Anyway in some western Iranian languages, we see the "L" sound exists and proto-IE sound "g" is changed to "k" not "z/s", for example in Persian both "Kalle" and "Sar" are used for "head" (cf. Old Norse kollr, Middle Dutch colle and Middle Low German kolle) from Proto-IE *gallw- "head", so it can be said that Balkan has a Irano-Germanic origin.
We know before the Slavic peoples, some Iranian and Germanic peoples, such as Scythians and Goths, lived in the Balkans,
Did they really heavily settled in Balkans like a country?
Land A is Scythian lands Orange area is the closest land which is near Balkans. It belongs Chernyakhov culture
However both lands are not in Balkans (not in South side of Danube River)
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
the name of Balkan linguistically has a Germanic origin but it is interesting that there is also a region with the same name in the northeast of Iran and Turkmenistan.
It is not interesting because name balkan also has Turkish meaning and why do you think that it is Germanic?
"The first time the word Balkan was mentioned was in a letter written by an Italian humanist, writer and diplomat, Buonaccorsi Callimarco for a mountain in northern Bulgaria, in 1490. He took the Turkish name Bal.kan which meant "woody mountain." An English traveler John Morritt introduced this term into the English literature at the end of the 18th century. Very soon different authors adopted the name Balkan to the wider area of the mountain range between the Adriatic and the Black sea, as it was done in Ancient Greek literature. This phenomena culminated with German geographer August Zeune who first used the name "Balkan peninsula" for the area in 1808. So it happened that this area was incorrectly named by the name of only one of the mountain ranges in its territories."
Using of name Balkan is so late period and Balkans was under the Turkish rule in that period. That's why, I think, it is probably Turkish name like Blacksea.
However we can discuss possible Turkic-Iranic root. This website is talking about Sogdian origin.
I 'll agree with Ollios on this matter. The name Balkans was coined by the Ottoman Turks.
The title "Balkans, an Irano-Germanic land" sounds a bit like science fiction titles (2001: A Space Odyssey).
The Balkan region is anything but Irano-Germanic land.. (name of the region, people and cultures). The ancient Persians never managed to control the Balkans for too long, while Goths, Celts and other tribes did not make a lasting impact with their invasions. Only the Slavs managed to settle in the Balkans permanently, since the Byzantine era. That was the main ethnic group, together with the Greeks, the Romans, the Illyrians and the Thracians of the ancient times.
Gothic and Celtic invasions lasted only for a few years, maximum a couple of decades.
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Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
The history of Slavs in the Balkans is not much longer than Turks in Turkey, if you read theories about the origin of people who live in this region such as Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians, then you will see that most of them talk about Iranian or Gothic origin of them, you can see most of places in this region from Danube river in the north to Vardar river in the south have Iranian names.
There was a Bulgarian member in this forum named Balkh-Aryan who strongly believed the name of Bulgars also relates to Balkh and Balkhan (Balkan province of Turkmenistan), anyway Ollios mentioned one of the best theories about the origin of Balkan from this link: http://turkmenistan.wikispaces.com/balkan-name :
The true origin of the name “Balkan” is to be found in the ancient Soghdian and Khwarezmian languages of western Central Asia as well Persian --ancient and modern. In those languages, the term "Barkhan" (whence Turkmeni Balkhan, Uzbek Barkhon and Turkish Balkan are derived) stand for 'rolling hills' or even dunes. The name is still preserved in Central Asia in Turkmenistan where there exist the Balkhan/ Balkan Peninsula in the Caspian Sea and the Balkan Province or Balkan Velayat in my Motherland-Turkmenistan.
If you read early Islamic sources then you will see that modern Balkans had no name except Barkhan/Barjan, for example author of "Hudud al-'Alam" (the Regions of the world), a Persian book from the 10th century, says about the Balck sea:
او را درياي بنطس خوانند حد مشرق او حدود الان است و حد شمال جايها بجناک و خزران و مروات و بلغار اندروني و قلاب است و از حد مغرب او ناحيت برجان است و از وي حد جنوب ناحيت روم است
"The eastern land of this sea which is also called Bontus, is Alan, in the north there are the lands of Bejnak, Khazaran, Morvat, Bolghar andaruni (inner Bolghar) and Qalab, in the west of it there is the land of Barjan and in the south there is Rum."
The history of Slavs in the Balkans is not much longer than Turks in Turkey, if you read theories about the origin of people who live in this region such as Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians, then you will see that most of them talk about Iranian or Gothic origin of them, you can see most of places in this region from Danube river in the north to Vardar river in the south have Iranian names.
Thank you to remind this reality. I have known that Slavs came to Balkans late, but I didn't know that it was that much late.
I am not satisfied. I still don't believe Scythians and Goths lived in Balkans as Greeks, Thracians and IIIyrians did. Also these people are Indo-European so a Thracian name, of course can be seem like Iranian
If you read early Islamic sources then you will see that modern Balkans had no name except Barkhan/Barjan, for example author of "Hudud al-'Alam" (the Regions of the world), a Persian book from the 10th century, says about the Balck sea:
او را درياي بنطس خوانند حد مشرق او حدود الان است و حد شمال جايها بجناک و خزران و مروات و بلغار اندروني و قلاب است و از حد مغرب او ناحيت برجان است و از وي حد جنوب ناحيت روم است
"The eastern land of this sea which is also called Bontus, is Alan, in the north there are the lands of Bejnak, Khazaran, Morvat, Bolghar andaruni (inner Bolghar) and Qalab, in the west of it there is the land of Barjan and in the south there is Rum."
However, this is a good source. According to this, West lands of Pontus(Blacksea) was called as Barjan and it is pretty old.
I will translate Hudud al-'Alem to Turkish -Hudut el-Alem -Alemin Hududu We also still use these words
"From the old people I know that when Turks came in Bulgaria, they met heavy resistance in Stara planina, a lot of blood was poured by Turks in the mountain, but after they conquered Stara Planina the roas to the capital Trnov was open, and it fell after 3 months seige and the spoils were a lot. So Turks named Stara planina- Balkan from their two words- BAL- honey and KAN- blood. Because the mountain gave them a lot of wealth and treasures but they gave many blood to it. So the mountain gives honey but at a high price- a lot of blood."
The history of Slavs in the Balkans is not much longer than Turks in Turkey, if you read theories about the origin of people who live in this region such as Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians, then you will see that most of them talk about Iranian or Gothic origin of them, you can see most of places in this region from Danube river in the north to Vardar river in the south have Iranian names.
The Slavs actually arrived in the Balkans after 500-600 AD, that is 1.5 millennia ago!
Vardar is not an Iranian name at all... Can you show any source for that claim?
Serbs, Bulgarians, Slavo-"Macedonians", Croats, Albanians etc. all claim that they descend from either the North (Slavic origin, not Germanic) or ancient Greek/Illyrian/Thracian. Nothing to do with either Iran, or Germany.
Regarding names, cities like Sofia or Skopje, have a known Greek etymology attached. Sofia is Greek for wisdom, while Skopje means watchtower, observatory etc.
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Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
The most accepted theory on the origin of the name is that it dates back to the Persian occupation of Macedonia. In the ancient Persian language, var-darya means open river. The name Vardarios (Βαρδάριος) was sometimes used by the Ancient Greeks in the 3rd Century BCE; the same name was widely used during Byzantine years.
The similar Persian etymology Bar-Darya (long river) is also highly likely.
Another etymology derives Vardar from the Thracian language, from PIE*sword(o)-wori-, "black water".
There are various exegetic theories for Slavic or Turkish roots for the name, but they are highly unlikely, as Slavs arrived in Macedonia 900 years after the first recorded use of the word, and Turks arrived in the region another 700 years later.
It can be compared to the names of famous rivers in the Central Asia, like Amudar/Amu Darya (Oxus) and Syrdar/Syr Darya (Jaxartes).
Originally posted by TITAN_
Serbs, Bulgarians, Slavo-"Macedonians", Croats, Albanians etc. all claim that they descend from either the North (Slavic origin, not Germanic) or ancient Greek/Illyrian/Thracian. Nothing to do with either Iran, or Germany.
You are wrong, just search in the web, you yourself will understand it. For example: Serb Origin in Google
The Iranian theory for the Serbs (Slavs in general) is the weakest of them all and it actually connects the Slavs to the Alani or the Huns, not Iranians or Persians! Did you even bother to read your own sources? The Serbs came from Caucasus in real life. Yep, Iranians also came from Caucasus since whites = Caucasians and Caucasus is the home of the Proto-IndoEuropeans who THEN migrated to Iran, India and Europe.
You remind me of Iranian nationalists who re-write history and claim that Caucasians=whites came from Iran, while it is the other way around!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race This is basic homework....
The Slavs came from Caucasus region (up to Southern Russia), not Iran...as you claim with zero evidence... Your own sources betray you.
Regarding Vardar, you are wrong once again.
The most accepted theory on the origin of the name Vardar derives Bardários from Thracian, from PIE *(s)wordo-wori- 'black water'[2] (cf. Germanschwarz 'black', Latinsuāsum 'dirt', Ossetianxuaræn 'color', Persianxvāl 'lampblack', Old Irishsorb 'stain, dirt').[3] This can be considered a translation or similar meaning of Axios, itself Thracian for 'not-shining' from PIE *n.-sk(e)i (cf. Avestan axšaēna 'dark-coloured'),[4] and found in another name at the mouth of the Danube, Axíopa "dark water", renamed in Slavic Crna voda 'black water'.[5] The name Bardários (Βαρδάριος) was sometimes used by the Ancient Greeks in the 3rd Century BCE; the same name was widely used during the Byzantine era.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vardar
Vardar is a Thracian name. Iran is once again irrelevant.
αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
By Iranians, I never mean the people of Iran, the original Iranian culture can be found among those Ossetians and Tats who live in the north Caucasus, Persians are just one of Iranian peoples, I know there can be a few Persian things in the southeast Europe from 2500 years ago during the Persian occupation, in fact they were Turks who brought some traces of Persian culture into the Balkans with them, so finding some similarities between Persian culture and various cultures of Balkans can't prove anything.
Of course Iranian culture is a different thing, however it is a little difficult to distinguish it from the Germanic culture but traces of Iranian culture can be really seen in the region where Persians never put their feet on them. For example as you read about the name of Croatia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Croatia "The most widely-held theory by Croatian linguists is that of the connection with an Iranian name", it is again important to mention that Persian language is just one of Iranian languages.
By Iranians, I never mean the people of Iran, the original Iranian culture can be found among those Ossetians and Tats who live in the north Caucasus, Persians are just one of Iranian peoples, I know there can be a few Persian things in the southeast Europe from 2500 years ago during the Persian occupation, in fact they were Turks who brought some traces of Persian culture into the Balkans with them, so finding some similarities between Persian culture and various cultures of Balkans can't prove anything.
Of course Iranian culture is a different thing, however it is a little difficult to distinguish it from the Germanic culture but traces of Iranian culture can be really seen in the region where Persians never put their feet on them. For example as you read about the name of Croatia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Croatia "The most widely-held theory by Croatian linguists is that of the connection with an Iranian name", it is again important to mention that Persian language is just one of Iranian languages.
I partially agree on that post. Croatia's etymology is complicated though...
from Serbo-Croatian Hrvat "a Croat," from Old Church Slavonic Churvatinu "Croat," literally "mountaineer, highlander," from churva "mountain" (cf. Russian khrebet "mountain chain").
αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
it may have derived from the the same Persian "balkane" which means "high, above, or proud house"
theory still weak i can not see close connection between bala khane and balkan !!! you are changing 2 word and turning it into one
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
If you read early Islamic sources then you will see that modern Balkans had no name except Barkhan/Barjan, for example author of "Hudud al-'Alam
the problem is arabs don't have G Ch P Zh so barkhan or better say barja must be some thing like parjan or pargan/paregan/padegan they change the gorgan to jorjan didn't they !?
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
There is no "L" in sound in the Avestan language
so the name is not old enough for your germans (as u said they live in iran b4 iranian came )
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
There was a Bulgarian member in this forum named Balkh-Aryan who
strongly believed the name of Bulgars also relates to Balkh and Balkhan
(Balkan province of Turkmenistan),
bulgar is turkmen word and have so many meaning for me if it come in Sentence i can tell it's exact meaning to u and balkan tekke turkmens call it as balkhan cuz they dont have H and they turn all H to kh as it's balkan (which is land of yomud turkmens) i can say it's original name is balhan which means full of huns or land of huns
We know before the Slavic peoples, some Iranian and Germanic peoples, such as Scythians and Goths, lived in the Balkans, the name of Balkan linguistically has a Germanic origin but it is interesting that there is also a region with the same name in the northeast of Iran and Turkmenistan.
As you read about the English word Balcony: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony this word can be related to both Old High German "balcho" and Persian term "balkane". And we read about Balkans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans it may have derived from the the same Persian "balkane" which means "high, above, or proud house".
If we consider Indo-European sound changes, the Germanic sound "k" should be changed to "z/s" in the Iranian langauges, like English "knee" and Avestan "znu" from PIE root *gno, so English "Balk" is cognate to Avestan "Barz" (There is no "L" in sound in the Avestan language). This Avestan word can be found in the name of Alborz (Hara Barzant) and Barez mountain in Iran. Look at this thread: If Persia is Bara'se 2296 BC how old is the Avesta
Anyway in some western Iranian languages, we see the "L" sound exists and proto-IE sound "g" is changed to "k" not "z/s", for example in Persian both "Kalle" and "Sar" are used for "head" (cf. Old Norse kollr, Middle Dutch colle and Middle Low German kolle) from Proto-IE *gallw- "head", so it can be said that Balkan has a Irano-Germanic origin.
Very interesting Cyrus. I've heard this all before. The root of Balkans belongs to what I imagine are several common place names including Av. Bakhdi (Gk. Bactria) Skr. Bahlika ?Av./?Per Jibal Barez, and the eponym Baluch.
Furthermore, the name of the Croatian capital, Zagreb, is related to the Zagros mountain range of Iran. The Dinara mountains in Dalmatia and the Dinar currency may be connected to Mount Dinar (Dene) of Iran. The name Serbia is similar to the Seropi or Surappi River in Elam.
Indeed, philologists trace the migration of the Croats from Harahvati (Arachosia, Sarasvati) in the following manner using fossil place-names along the path of migration:
Harahvaiti and Harauvati in Iran and Afghanistan
Hurravat and Hurrvuhe in Armenia and Georgia
Horoouathos in Azova and the Black Sea
Present day Croats Horvati and Hrvati along the Adriatic
Slavs are late nation as Turkic. They came to scene of history in 500-600 AD. They should be something before it so they can have some relations with West Scythians
but Zagreb-Zagros? I still don't people. Talking about words is risky, everyone tries to proof that their culture older.
Even I can make my of scenerio (just for showing how can make it easy)
As you known, previous main god of Athens is Poseidon. Poseidon was also main god of all Ionians. Example: Asian Ionians and Panionium
and Poseidon is lord of the horses. We can see it also in his competition with Athena for Athens. Athena creates an olive tree, he creates a horse so name Athens can come from "At Han". Han is also term which uses after name of gods like Dağ Han-Mountain God
At Han = God of Horse (Poseidon) Athan=Athens
It is easy to create, but how we know which one is true?
As much as I know Bulgarians initially inhabited the region eastern from nowadays Iran, and were most probably of Iranian origin. In the last centuries BC they started moving towards Caucasus where they formed quite a big country that eventually spanned between the rivers Volga and Danube. For the first time Bulgarians have been South from the Danube about 4th century when they have been called by the Byzantium to help fighting the Goths. I know that Goths have been on the Balkan for the period of about 2 centuries. When Bulgarians permanently inhabited this land there were still some Goths left, so Bulgarians assimilated them as well as the Slavic tribes they found there and the remains of Thracians. As of pure Slavic nations I this those are Polish and Belarusians. All others have been mixed with Goths and other Northern tribes, and others.
Apart from Bulgarians bringing Iranian culture to the Balkans, I've heard that Thracians have also been related to the Iranians. So it appears Iranian influence on the Balkans is much grater than German.
quotation from my later post:
Originally posted by leda
Apart of it all I found proofs of my poor memory :). Some mistakes in my first post here - Bulgarians first stepped South from Danube in the year 480 (not 4th century as I wrote). First stable migrations started a century later. Goths have been on the Balkans since the year 251. They have formed 2 countries there, thought not recognized officially by Byzantium. These two countries first fought between each other, later unified. I don't know whether this country existed by the time Bulgarians came. In the Bulgaria/Byzantium peace contract from 681 is written that Bulgarian territory includes 7 Slavic tribes + a tribe called Severi - scientists argue whether this is a Goth or Thracian people. For sure Bulgarians trusted them well since the Severi were entitled to guard over the South border.
Another thing incorrect - this huge Bulgarian country I mentioned before the Balkan period is infact from Volga to Dnepar, not Danube. By the end of the life of Kubrat, Asparuh's father, the Khazars split this country into 2 - that's how the 2 Bulgarias have formed. That's the point when the Western Bulgarians started moving towards the Danube.
Edited by leda - 04-Jan-2014 at 01:49
Civilization is artificial, it must be constantly protected from human nature. Democracy is self eating because humans are slaves of nature and wellbeing makes mind lazy. Democracy is not for slaves.
Interesting thread. It leaves the question, which people are not iranic? I met guys on the www, who claimed, that most germanics are Slavs, that ancient Balkanic people were Slavs, that Huns were Slavsetc and I know some Turks who claim, that the first human language was Turkic. Here it are the Iranians, now.
Fact is, that we had iranian (in a linguistical sense) people on the Balkans. They went west thru the plains north of the Black Sea, the Danubian plains and ended on the Hungarian plains. Such may have happened since Cimmerian times. The first proven people are the Jazygs from the 1st century.
There is also a Germanic share. But they left no great trace on the Balkans, Goths, Bastarno-Scirii, Vandals, Gepides, Lombards.
Slavs came in several waves, mainly since the late 6th and 7th century or to be correct a lot of tribes from the area north of Danube and Black Sea formed the Slavic people, a process that went even on inside the Roman Empire. That the balkas became so quick Slavic-speaking is probably not a reason of a huge Slavic migration, but a result of Slavic as language of the Bulgarian Empire.
Yes beorna and marmot puts chocolate in alu-foil after that...Who did conquere Perisa in 4th century B.C(officialy)?After England colonized India&rest of the world it's population varied a lot.
Migration&Emigration groups did the rest.Balkan was once Commonwealth center.Period.
Probably the right question is who is not Thracian :). I heard on the TV earlier this year that Thracian artifacts have been definitively dated before Tigris-Euphrates civilization. So it's possible that there's a circle of influence - first from the Balkans to Iran and then back several millenniums later.
As of the Balkans being commonwealth - I suppose it would be true if we saw the Byzantine Empire as commonwealth :)
Something about the Goth influence: Although most of the names of Bulgarian kings are Iranian there are some like Malamer who are definitively Goth sounding. And also before 16th century the popular Slavic names Stanimir and Vladimir were in fact StanimEr and VladimEr - that's data from the archives of the Ottoman Empire. So the root is not "mir", so neatly meaning "world" and "peace" in Slavic languages but "mer" which means I don't know what :)
Probably the right question is who is not Thracian :). I heard on the TV earlier this year that Thracian artifacts have been definitively dated before Tigris-Euphrates civilization. So it's possible that there's a circle of influence - first from the Balkans to Iran and then back several millenniums later.
Not Thracian, but the Danubian culture known as Old Europe. They evolved many things, that were before said to be originally Sumerian. But to claim an Old European influence on Sumer is AFAIK not proven. But again, that was long before Thracians existed and while Thracians were Indo-europeans, the Danubians were not.
Originally posted by leda
As of the Balkans being commonwealth - I suppose it would be true if we saw the Byzantine Empire as commonwealth :)
The geographical situation of the Balkans is responsible for such "commenwealth" or better for such heterogenous populations. It is a crossroad betweenLittle Asia, Europe and the Eurasian steppe, with plains and montanous areas.
Originally posted by leda
Something about the Goth influence: Although most of the names of Bulgarian kings are Iranian there are some like Malamer who are definitively Goth sounding. And also before 16th century the popular Slavic names Stanimir and Vladimir were in fact StanimEr and VladimEr - that's data from the archives of the Ottoman Empire. So the root is not "mir", so neatly meaning "world" and "peace" in Slavic languages but "mer" which means I don't know what :)
The original Bulgarians are probably of Turkic origin, but soon included a lot of indo-iranian people from the steppe belt. The Turkic elite seem to have been very small, so that they decided to use Slavic as lingua franca. The indo-iranian component was as well strong, that's why they had some input on names. But not all names of -ir/er are iranian. Some slavic names are e.g. Germanic, like Wladimir, from norse Woldemar
The original Bulgarians are probably of Turkic origin
Yes, that's what we studied in school some 2 decades ago, but this theory is now fully smashed.
Edited by leda - 31-Dec-2013 at 11:25
Civilization is artificial, it must be constantly protected from human nature. Democracy is self eating because humans are slaves of nature and wellbeing makes mind lazy. Democracy is not for slaves.
The original Bulgarians are probably of Turkic origin
Yes, that's what we studied in school some 2 decades ago, but this theory is now fully smashed.
It is not smashed. Protobulgarian is still considered as Turkic language. What is "smashed", is the hypothesis, that Protobulgarians were Turks per se. But indeed they from the beginning included many different steppe ethnics
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