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    Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 01:44

 

 For the Germans here, can you please explain the word Frankreich, does it means Frank land or Frank kingdom.

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Posts: 2656 		  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 02:21
I'm American but I speak German, and I believe it means "Empire of the Franks" or "Kingdom of the Franks".  Where does the French word for Germany come from?  The English word "Germany" comes from that nation's descendance from the Germanic tribes.
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"Realm of the Franks", really, has nothing to do with way of ruling. The Scandinavian names are the same, "Frankrike/Frankriki".
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Realm of the Franks is the best translation, its the same in Dutch - Frankrijk.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 10:44
Reich originally meant Commonwealth and later became synonymous with Empire. the correct translation therefore is realm of the Franks.
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 12:00
Originally posted by Genghis

  Where does the French word for Germany come from?  The English word "Germany" comes from that nation's descendance from the Germanic tribes.
  The word "Allemagne" comes from a germanic tribe that neighbored the Franks called the Allemani (or all men; something like that).
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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 18:24

The word "Allemagne" comes from a germanic tribe that neighbored the Franks called the Allemani (or all men; something like that).

 

 Yep exactly, the Allemanni is the tribe that bordered France. And there was a war between the Allemani and the Franks. So they basically became known to us as the Allemani which in French become Allemand and it's country become Allemagne. Basically Germany names depends on the observer, they called themselves  Deutsche. There were 4 major tribes, the Germanni, the Allemanni, the Deutsche and the Teutons (Teuton was celtic according to some historians)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 04:52
Originally posted by Clovis

There were 4 major tribes, the Germanni, the Allemanni, the Deutsche and the Teutons (Teuton was celtic according to some historians)


That's not true.
The Germani were the indigenous group that lived in Germany, the Low Countries and Scandianavia during Roman times. The Allemanni and Teutons were Germanic tribes. (IIRC the Teutons were completely wiped out by the Romans about 100BC, the name was used later to refer to Germans). The Deutsche isn't the name of a tribe. 'Deutsch' means 'people' in old-German(ic).
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Posts: 984 		  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 19:58

That's not true.
The Germani were the indigenous group that lived in Germany, the Low Countries and Scandianavia during Roman times. The Allemanni and Teutons were Germanic tribes. (IIRC the Teutons were completely wiped out by the Romans about 100BC, the name was used later to refer to Germans). The Deutsche isn't the name of a tribe. 'Deutsch' means 'people' in old-German(ic).

 

 Well You may be right you may be wrong. I don't know about the Deutsch, but I know the Allemani in the time of Frank great migration into France, was in the region next to France. Whereas German libera (defined by the romans) where the collective tribes known as Germani lived wasn't. So my question, was the Allemani in the German libera. If no you are not right, if yes then the Allemani is just part of that collective tribes known as the Germani as you claim correctly; otherwise the Allemani is quite distinct from the Germani although they can crossly be called germanic. But I've read the Romans clashed regularly with the Franks and Allemani in the Roman controlled part of germany, this indicates the Franks or Allemani weren't part of the Germani. But I again i could be wrong since they might have been raiding the area. I don't claim to be an expert in the field just arguing so that I could understand more.  About the Teuton, the original Teutons  was probably celt. But if you define the people living in the German libera as Germanic, then what does that make of a celt living in that region?


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The Teutons (Teutones) were mentioned as a Germanic people in early historical writings by Greek and Roman authors. Their homeland was given as Jutland, the western peninsula of modern Denmark. There is debate as to whether they were a Celtic or Germanic people since the name Teutones itself appears to be Celtic; Strabo and Velleius, however, counted them among the Germanic tribes. German historians did not associate the name Teutons with their Germanic ancestors until the 13th century.

More than 100 years before the birth of Christ, many of the Teutoni, as well as the Cimbri, migrated south and west to the Danube valley, where they encountered the expanding Roman Empire.

During the late 2nd century BC, the Teutons are recorded as marching south through Gaul along with their neighbors, the Cimbri, and attacking Roman Italy. After several victories for the invading armies, the Cimbri and Teutones were finally defeated by Marius in 102 BC at Aquae Sextiae (near present-day Aix-en-Provence).

The terms "Teuton" and "Teutonic" have sometimes been used in reference to all of the Germanic peoples. "Teut" is an Indo-European word for people, and is not only found in German "deutsch" (=German) and Old Norse "thjod" people, but also in the romance word for all (as in Latin totum, tout in French, or todo in Spanish). It is therefore sometimes used as a synonym to proto-Germanic, based on a belief in the existence of a proto-Germanic tribe of common language and ethnicity.

Source: Wikipedia

Other Sites:
http://www.romansonline.com/Events.asp?EventID=302

http://www.romansonline.com/Src_Frame.asp?DocID=Dbg_Bk07_77

 
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Posts: 2419 		  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 20:22

This site's interesting, but I believe completely unreliable so I did not include it up there.

German Giants' Annihilation
The Nephilim genes that caused the Celts to grow into giants also made the Cimbri and the Teutones giants, for, according to historians, they were also Celts, but even more so. Explains Gerhard Herm: "The Teutones and Cimbri were Germans; these in turn were not just one of the great Celtic family of peoples, as opposed to the Scythian one, but the very heart of that family. They were the most Celtic of the Celts."30 Posidonius, who journeyed to Massilia and Spain to gather some history on these peoples, definitely classified the Teutones as Celts. But Strabo, described as "Posidonius' faithful interpreter," identified them also as a German people who lived east of the Rhine. They differed from the Celts of the left bank, he wrote, only by being "wilder, taller, and have yellower hair." The Romans who lived in Gaul, he goes on to say, "called them 'Germani' because they wanted to indicate that they were the 'authentic,' the real Celts. Germani means in their language 'genuine' in the sense of original."31

Apparently this site claims that there is no difference between germanic and celtic peoples, and that germans are the celtiest of celts?!?!?

Source: http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/W.Europe/W.Europe3.html



Edited by JanusRook
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Posts: 0 		  Quote rcislandlake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 15:30
This comes about 3 years late...
 
About the word reich
In Sweden It is Svea rike = Sverike = Swerige (Svr-je)
In Norway It is Norr rike = Norike = Norge (Nor-i-je)
 
Svea means a tribe amongst the three, Goths (Gtas), Svea and Vends (together the three Crowns of present Sweden). And rike means a kingdom or area that belongs to a tribe...
 
Norr means a king who founded Norway. Rike has the same meaning.
 
Frankrike then means the Kingdom of Franks, so do Frankreich.
 
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2007 at 16:49
Originally posted by JanusRook

This site's interesting, but I believe completely unreliable so I did not include it up there.

German Giants' Annihilation
The Nephilim genes that caused the Celts to grow into giants also made the Cimbri and the Teutones giants, for, according to historians, they were also Celts, but even more so. Explains Gerhard Herm: "The Teutones and Cimbri were Germans; these in turn were not just one of the great Celtic family of peoples, as opposed to the Scythian one, but the very heart of that family. They were the most Celtic of the Celts."30 Posidonius, who journeyed to Massilia and Spain to gather some history on these peoples, definitely classified the Teutones as Celts. But Strabo, described as "Posidonius' faithful interpreter," identified them also as a German people who lived east of the Rhine. They differed from the Celts of the left bank, he wrote, only by being "wilder, taller, and have yellower hair." The Romans who lived in Gaul, he goes on to say, "called them 'Germani' because they wanted to indicate that they were the 'authentic,' the real Celts. Germani means in their language 'genuine' in the sense of original."31

Apparently this site claims that there is no difference between germanic and celtic peoples, and that germans are the celtiest of celts?!?!?

Source: http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/W.Europe/W.Europe3.html



well, depends on what Celt really is. Celts originated from southern Germany & Alps region, so naturally many people from southern Germany are also Celtic, maybe more than other Celtic people who speak a Celtic language.
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 05:05
On the Allemans and the Franks, Luxembourgers are a mixture of both, since the (varying) border between them ran through the territory that became Luxembourg.
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In the first german "reich" were: franks, alemanns, saxons, bayuwars, svevs (Schwaben), tringians. Before the Ostmark there were karanthans and stajers in old Bayern too. They and the trade-cities made the first "Heilige Rmische Reich  Deutshe(r?) Nation". And certenly there were the bohemians, moravians and some other west slavian people. And Tirol + parts of North Italy. And the swiss kantons until the 14. cent.
 
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Edited by Tar Szernd - 10-Sep-2007 at 11:34
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 12:17
Originally posted by gcle2003

On the Allemans and the Franks, Luxembourgers are a mixture of both, since the (varying) border between them ran through the territory that became Luxembourg.


and whats your source on that?
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 09:40
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by gcle2003

On the Allemans and the Franks, Luxembourgers are a mixture of both, since the (varying) border between them ran through the territory that became Luxembourg.


and whats your source on that?
 
You could try http://life.bio.sunysb.edu/ee/msr/Ethno/dategen8.html though its maybe overkill.
 
But it hardly seems worth giving web references since it seems to be pretty well accepted history that the Alamanni (from the east and the south) and the Franks (from the west and the north) fought for a while over this whole area until the battle of Tolbiac in 496 pretty well settled things for a while, and the Alamanni became subject to the Franks (barring the odd rebellion). The Franks had earlier taken Trier in mid-century.
 
However try http://www.robert-weinland.org/histo.php?lang=en (remembering that southern Luxembourg is part of the Lorraine plateau), look at http://www.odinsvolk.ca/GermanicPeoples.htm#Alamanni , or check the wikipedia articles on Trier and Thionville, for instance. 
 
The only full-length English language textbook I know dealing with Luxembourg is James Newcomer's The Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, which is understandably mainly concerned with events after the foundation of the (then) County, but describes the Franks as 'replacing' the Alamanni in the area. It seems unlikely that he was referring to ethnic cleansing (there being no other indication that anything like that took place) so it's reasonable to assume that a fair amount of intermarriage took place.
 
Incidentally I didn't mean to imply that Luxembourgers were a mixture of only Franks and Alamanni. The genetic heritage is a lot more complex than that, and undoubtedly includes a large Celtic part (if Paul will forgive me using the term), even excluding the 19th and 20t century immigrations from southern Europe.
 
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The Franks had earlier taken Trier in mid-century.
Not quite. Trier had a tumultous history in 5th century (in the first half of the century several sackings from Franks or Huns).
However in the 470s the city belonged to a certain comes Arbogast, possibly of Frankish origin (related to the homonymous magister militum living in the 4th century), but praised by Sidonius Apollinarius to be Roman (many "Romans" from the late Empire had actually a "barbarian" origin). His image is rather of an independent ex-Roman general, than of a Frankish warlord. He also might be the same Arbogast which was bishop of Chartres in the 480s-490s, which would be explainable as a retreat in front of the Frankish conquest. Because in the late 470s-480s (I'm not sure on the exact date of the takeover), is the time when the city submits definitely to Franks.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2007 at 13:33
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
You could try http://life.bio.sunysb.edu/ee/msr/Ethno/dategen8.html though its maybe overkill.
 
But it hardly seems worth giving web references since it seems to be pretty well accepted history that the Alamanni (from the east and the south) and the Franks (from the west and the north) fought for a while over this whole area until the battle of Tolbiac in 496 pretty well settled things for a while, and the Alamanni became subject to the Franks (barring the odd rebellion). The Franks had earlier taken Trier in mid-century.
 
However try http://www.robert-weinland.org/histo.php?lang=en (remembering that southern Luxembourg is part of the Lorraine plateau), look at http://www.odinsvolk.ca/GermanicPeoples.htm#Alamanni , or check the wikipedia articles on Trier and Thionville, for instance. 
 
The only full-length English language textbook I know dealing with Luxembourg is James Newcomer's The Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, which is understandably mainly concerned with events after the foundation of the (then) County, but describes the Franks as 'replacing' the Alamanni in the area. It seems unlikely that he was referring to ethnic cleansing (there being no other indication that anything like that took place) so it's reasonable to assume that a fair amount of intermarriage took place.
 
Incidentally I didn't mean to imply that Luxembourgers were a mixture of only Franks and Alamanni. The genetic heritage is a lot more complex than that, and undoubtedly includes a large Celtic part (if Paul will forgive me using the term), even excluding the 19th and 20t century immigrations from southern Europe.
 


it is unlikely that Luxemburgers are Alemanic, considdering the northern border of the Alemani duchy as well as the language border. the northern border of the old duchy are the northern border of Alsace in the west, the northern border of the Bavarian district Swabia in the east and appx. the old border bewteen the American and French occupation zone in the middle. this is also pretty consistent witht he language border. between this border an Luxemburg are appx. 100km and another language in bewteen (Palatinate).
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Originally posted by Chilbudios

The Franks had earlier taken Trier in mid-century.
Not quite. Trier had a tumultous history in 5th century (in the first half of the century several sackings from Franks or Huns).
However in the 470s the city belonged to a certain comes Arbogast, possibly of Frankish origin (related to the homonymous magister militum living in the 4th century), but praised by Sidonius Apollinarius to be Roman (many "Romans" from the late Empire had actually a "barbarian" origin). His image is rather of an independent ex-Roman general, than of a Frankish warlord. He also might be the same Arbogast which was bishop of Chartres in the 480s-490s, which would be explainable as a retreat in front of the Frankish conquest. Because in the late 470s-480s (I'm not sure on the exact date of the takeover), is the time when the city submits definitely to Franks.
 
I was deliberately vague in writing 'in mid-century' since it seemed good enough for the context. 459 is the date used by Newcomer for (final) Frankish conquest of Trier. It's also the date given in the wikipedia article on Trier. Arbogast controlled the city later than that, and is usually, wherever I've seen it, referred to as a Frank, like the earlier Arbogast, who, presumably, was an ancestor.
 
Not that I'd quibble over a decade or so. The point at issue is who the Franks were fighting with for control of the area. And that, until Tolbiac anyway, appears to have been the Alamanni. They controlled what is now Alsace and the left bank of the upper Rhine. The Franks controlled the left bank of the middle Rhine, north of the Ardennes/Eifel as well as (by this time) Gaul to the west of there. The Lorraine plateau and today's Rhineland-Palatinate were, in effect, the borderland between them, and settled by both.
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