On the subject of Taiwan

Originally posted by YanWang there was no a state named taiwan or found by taiwan's aborinals either in history or today, but taiwan is still a chinese island now. People from taiwan should better not promote those thoughts based on independence to damage interest of whole chinese nationals. According to international conventions, China has its right to reponse to those people in a civil war either peacefully or not. Some taiwan people say the inependence is for taiwan people's interest, but they never think that it endangers the interests of the whole chinese world. so chinese people will do anything to protect taiwan province.

See, there it goes again?  What did I just say...

There are always racist people out there.  The aboriginals have states.  It's the colonialists such as the Chinese people that didn't view them as human, so disregard their rightful claim to their own lands! 

It's the Chinese, Japanese and the Dutch drove these people off their lands, force them into labor when they are needed, and then kill them when they are inconvinient.

This is the same thing Americans did to the Native Americans.  It's the same thing that Spanish did to the Native Latin Americans.  It is aboriginals' land.  They had societies established all the way back to 6000 years ago.

It's 2004! Stop being such a colonialist!

Edited by hansioux

Hey demon,

    People like you played too much Age of Empires.    You gotta quit thinking like this is 1200.  PRC isn't Tang.  And the values of things change.  Hong Kong used to be a fisherman port.  Now it a bustling city, a jungle of concrete, with a transportation system so convenient that most people don't even bother to drive.  South Korea also used to be the less developed counterpart of North Korea, but look at it now.  And since when do expansionists refuse to acquire a land because they deem it "barbaric?"  They would take it in a jiffy.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004

Hey Hansioux,

    But it's not like land acquisition means anything.  Even if Tang acquired Taiwan, as far as we're concerned, PRC ain't Tang.  God didn't inscribe in stones in Taiwan saying that it formally belongs to China.  If I were you I wouldn't play the game in Mainland's way cuz it makes no sense.  There almost isn't a country in this world that doesn't rest on some land that they took from others.  Can we ask the US to give back all the lands to the Native Americans, or at least give California back to Mexico?  The US would never do that, and not that many people want to anyway.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004

"I am sorry, in the Taipei treaty, NOTHING was said about Japan giving Taiwan to the Republic of CHina.  It was simply a peace treaty between the ROC and Japan.  Also restated that Japan give up control over Taiwan but did not say which nation Taiwan belongs to. 

If you want to prove me wrong, I welcome you go find the Taipei treaty and read it for yourself.  Because I surely have.  And I am tired to be the only one posting real facts here"

 

You misinterpreted my quoet once again, I never said the taibei treay claimed such, but it did give Taiwan to ROC as the result. And as I said its rightly China's since one of international judgment of soverignty is the owning of it in history for a length of time. Thus when Japan gave it up, it rightly belonged to China.

 

 

"There are always racist people out there.  The aboriginals have states.  It's the colonialists such as the Chinese people that didn't view them as human, so disregard their rightful claim to their own lands! 

It's the Chinese, Japanese and the Dutch drove these people off their lands, force them into labor when they are needed, and then kill them when they are inconvinient."

 

Do tell me when the Chinese have killed them after its occupation.

 

"In fact the only means for any nation to aquire another land peacefully is either one of the follwoing:

1.  International law and treaty requires so.

2.  It is the will of the people of the land being aquired.

For the case of China claiming Taiwan.  It is neither."

 

In fact international law does legalize China's claim as already pointed out. And seond the majority of the people at that time is indifferent just that they get rid of Japanese influence.

 

 

"Your "No they haven't" reply is negating that I said above.  And I have found proof for you.  It's about time that you find proof to prove me wrong."

 

You already disproved your own statement, "herewarhead, you know why China don't claim Taiwan in the internation courts saying the reason is of blood?  Because they can't!  That's something Hitler did and we all know what happened."

China never claimed Taiwan based on blood, what Jiang is not a claim its a talk and nothing more. You confuse a claim to a discussion and there is a difference.

 

"The aboriginals have states.  It's the colonialists such as the Chinese people that didn't view them as human, so disregard their rightful claim to their own lands! "

 

Great, that still doesn't change the fact there is no country called taiwan, just an island filled with different aborigines.

Originally posted by warhead China never claimed Taiwan based on blood, what Jiang is not a claim its a talk and nothing more. You confuse a claim to a discussion and there is a difference.

I don't want to play word games.  But once again, in my original post, I did not use the word claim.  You are just argueing with yourself here.

I think, it was the chinese who first 'discovered' Taiwan . It was mentioned as "Yizhou" in 3 kingdoms history text 'Sanguozhi".

"It did not give Taiwan to ROC as a result.  ROC unlawfully took Taiwan before the treaty.  The treaty is only a peace treaty.  And it stated that Japan no longer claims the ownership of Taiwan and its islands.  "

 

There is nothing unlawful about it, ROC haven't broken any international law, since ther eis no article that gave taiwan to anyone, and land claims as I mentioned for the third time base heavily on soverignty rights in history in international law thus, China is justified to take Taiwan.

 

" But once again, in my original post, I did not use the word claim.  You are just argueing with yourself here."

 

Speaking of your original post, then your even further off, you said that China teaches its student that taiwan is related to them by blood, I have learned in China, and nothing of the sort is told because of blood, and what does teaching student have anything to do with what Jiang said?

Ok i think this thread is going in a round a bout way. Both sides have presented their arguments, but in actuality they don't contradict each other, because the reality is that if China attacks taiwan before taiwan declares independance, the US and most probably the rest of the world will condemn and exercise some form of punitive measures.

However if Taiwan declares independance, and moves to amend their constitution, the world will universally see that China has casus belli, and will turn a blind eye to an "invasion", that in a paper by a taiwanese general can begin at +2 hours and end by +48 hours.

If really Hansioux, is one of those taiwanese who seek independance, he had better be prepared to go alone to defend his belief, and forgot about getting a backer, as the US has said that they would condemn any move by taiwan to change the status quo.

"Saying ROC is China is incorrect.  Current ROC territory does not include China in its constitution.  ROC is not China in any international communities.  Taiwan is a country, and its name is ROC.  That's as simple as it is.  It is like not every nation with the name Arabia in it owns the entire Arabian peninsula."

 

There is nothing incorrect about it, ROC is not China in international communitie because in international communitie its but a part of the PRC, Taiwan is the ROC which is China, its as simple as that.

 

"As much as the Chinese wants to say there is only one China and that China includes Taiwan, that is NOT the current situation.  The current situation is there is one China named PRC, and one Taiwan named ROC."

 

No the current situation is one China two regime, and the ROC regime is declaring independence, if Taiwan is already a country there is no need to declare their "independence"

Originally posted by hansioux The current Taiwanese government does not use this official name because it chose to.  It is due to the history of Nationalist Party invasion and dictatorship, and the threat of war by the PRC that Taiwan is force to continue calling itself ROC. Saying ROC is China is incorrect.  Current ROC territory does not include China in its constitution.  ROC is not China in any international communities.  Taiwan is a country, and its name is ROC.  That's as simple as it is.  It is like not every nation with the name Arabia in it owns the entire Arabian peninsula. As much as the Chinese wants to say there is only one China and that China includes Taiwan, that is NOT the current situation.  The current situation is there is one China named PRC, and one Taiwan named ROC.

The official ROC territory used to include mainland china, and that is a fact. It was only amended very recently.

Hansioux, the only reason Taiwan wants to split instead of reunifying is because it realizes it cannot reunify against its own terms. If the situation was that taiwan was powerful enough to unite both sides on their own terms i.e Taipei became the capital, they would gladly do so.

But as it stands, there is no way for taiwan to declare independance, because you guys used to want to covet the whole of china as your territory. Turning back now, is akin to being a coward, and i am sure you aren't one are you?