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vulkan02
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Topic: turks and etruscans are TROAN? Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 15:59 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Well I understood why you asked for his assistance.
Anyway, there are a couple of problems, for example, there are many
significant Etruscan words that don't exist in Albanian, for example..
Brother is similar to the IE 'phrater'...etc and is seen as "frater", "fratrom", "fratros" while the Albanian word is "velle"
breast is seen as "mam" and "mammar" in contrast to the Albanian "
gji, sis, zemer, ndjenja
father is seen as "patre", "patrebum" and "tette" in contrast to the Albanian baba, ate
son seen as filos, filus, filvus in contrast to the Albanian bir and diale
daughter seen as file in contrast to the Albanian bije , vadje
our seen as "nos" in contrast to the Albanian jone , ine
And the list continues,,,,,,
There might be some similarities I might have missed, but this by no
means proves a direct connection it could be due to a number of
reasons..
I don't believe that a language like Albanian, being recorded in
writting for the first time in the 15th cent. is a good basis to come
to such conclusions, especially since we know of other language
influence upon it, from Romanian to Turkish and Arab.
So these similarities may mean absolutely nothing at all, but then again...
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I was surprised it took you a full 27
minutes to intervene... I expected much sooner phallanx! Anyways like I
said im not here to "claim" the Greek Gods or anything like that but
then again the names and meanings that you specifiy such as Odysseus =
hatred for the Gods
are simply literal as well. I know that Illyrians had their own
pantheon and the names of Illyrian Gods such as Tomor ( the mountain
where Berat is situated on) the "Zeus" of Illyrian Gods do survive in
Albania. Elbasan (even though it was founded by the Turks in 16th
century) had a very important religious site where Illyrians worshipped
the goddess Diana.
I didn't say the Illyrian "comes" from Etruscan or anything like that.
All I suggested is that Etruscan, Illyrian and Thraco-Dacian, taking
into perspective their relatively close location to one another might
have exchanged and spoken similar words from migrations of tribes
vica-versa.
Romanian influence?? You mean Roman influence... Romanian is a latin
language which very few of the Thraco-Dacian words survive... at least
we have almost one third of Illyrian in Albanian language. Arab
influence i never heard of but yeah if some borrowed Turkish words come
from Arabia then yeah you are semi-correct in that.
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Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 17:06 |
Is been evidenced
the presence of the pre-Indoeupean population in the balkan
region. Under this circumstance minght examine any pre- IE remnats in
the Albanian languagge.
the vigesimal system of number: nje-zet (twenty), dy-zet(forty),
tre-zet(Sixty), kater-zet(eighty). the last two being attested by the
arvanitas of greece and arbereshe of italy.(example from other
language: French "quatrevingts" 80, danish tresindstyve 60, firsindstyve 80)
Same scholalars have assumed that albanian has preseved also some other pre-IE words
Cabej:lepjete in c.p with greek λαπαηον; Vere, Vene "wine"; shege " pomegranate"
Baric: (H)ardhi in c.p with basque "Ardeo"; bisht "tail"; mal "mountain"; sh-kurre "scrub".
Edited by neritan
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Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 17:47 |
I am very sceptik for same word in this text. I search to explain theirs origin
Albanian
form: ana, ane "Side"< Proto-Albanian: (h)ant- < IE : h2(e)nt "front, face"
Albanian
form: lus "to beg" < Proto-Albanian: lutsi < Quasi-IE: luT-io < IE: leuT-
Albanian
form: la "leave" < Proto-Albanian: ladn- < IE: leh1(i)-d
Albanian
form: ap, jap "to give" < Proto-Albanian: apei- < IE: h2ep "to reach, get at/to, capture"
This words have IE origin and not come from pre-IE
Edited by neritan
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Mortaza
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Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 17:56 |
arzuhal is not albanian word.
Arzu means wish. I dont know origin of it. Maybe Turkish or persian.
Hal is also Turkish-persian-arabic(No idea) means position.
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Maju
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Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 19:09 |
Originally posted by neritan
Same scholalars have assumed that albanian has preseved also some other pre-IE words
Cabej:lepjete in c.p with greek λαπαηον; Vere, Vene "wine"; shege " pomegranate"
Baric: (H)ardhi in c.p with basque "Ardeo"; bisht "tail"; mal "mountain"; sh-kurre "scrub".
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I don't understand what you're talking about here. The words seem not to connect with each other.
Also there's no Basque word "ardeo". There is ardo (wine), ardi (sheep), arto (millet, now maize) and arte (between, also a type of oak).
The three first terms could come from the East, via the Mediterranean
or other route, as neither product is original from the country, but
were imported at some time. Ardi (sheep) and arto (corn, millet) should have come with the Mediterranean Neolithic, unless it's a Neolithic neologism based in some other word. Ahari (ram), for instance, resembles too much Greek aries to be just a coincidence.
Edited by Maju
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erci
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Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 19:14 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
arzuhal is not albanian word.
Arzu means wish. I dont know origin of it. Maybe Turkish or persian.
Hal is also Turkish-persian-arabic(No idea) means position.
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both Arabic I think.Arzu means land I believe.(hal may be persian)
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Phallanx
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Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 19:33 |
Well vulcan, sorry to keep you waiting but I do have other things to do
than spend my time refuting ideas picked of propaganda sites.
Literal ?, yeah, right, whatever you say...
Anyway, I'd prefer you try to give etymologies/meanings/connections to
the Illyrian Gods than pick off some propaganda site a rediculous claim
of Hellinic God names being Albanian.
Why don't you start with the names and myths of:
Medauros, depicted on horseback with a lance,
Vidasos, protector of their borders,
Thanos, the goddess connected to virgin maidens,
Armatos, the God of war,
Bindos, God of natural springs and sea,
Anzotika, Goddess of love,
As for my Etruscan comment it wasn't directed to anyone in specific but
a general observasion I thought might add something to the discussion
as it did, but you must have missed Maju's post.
As for Romanian, I know exactly what I said and you know exactly what I
mean. We've done this before so let's not repeat it here, the original
topic is still open as I recall. You can either take it there or
address the linguists that came to this conclusion. see: H. Kronasser,
R. Katicic, G. Alföldy
And yes, ARAB, everyone knows that the Ottoman language which is
very different to 'modern' Turkish was strongly influenced by
Arabic so your language had a large number of Arab loan words even if
that happened via the Ottomans..
neritan
What exactly is the Hellinic word you wrote cause I can't make anything of it??
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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TheodoreFelix
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Posted: 18-Oct-2005 at 21:25 |
And yes, ARAB, everyone knows that the Ottoman language which is very different to 'modern' Turkish was strongly influenced by Arabic so your language had a large number of Arab loan words even if that happened via the Ottomans. |
Large? Its not large, there are yes. But most are religous based.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 01:35 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Well vulcan, sorry to keep you waiting but I do have other things to do
than spend my time refuting ideas picked of propaganda sites.
Literal ?, yeah, right, whatever you say...
well it is and you know it
Athina - without milk
Odysseus - hatred for the gods
Zeus - create a link (what is this html code?? )
Sure my explanation in Albanian might be sceptical but this is just ridiculous!
Anyway, I'd prefer you try to give etymologies/meanings/connections to
the Illyrian Gods than pick off some propaganda site a rediculous claim
of Hellinic God names being Albanian.
Why don't you start with the names and myths of:
Medauros, depicted on horseback with a lance,
Vidasos, protector of their borders,
Thanos, the goddess connected to virgin maidens,
Armatos, the God of war,
Bindos, God of natural springs and sea,
Anzotika, Goddess of love,
Im not a linguist phallanx im an engineer
and who says these are Illyrian names in the first place??. Im not very
familiar with the Illyrian pantheon like I told you before but if you
want to know more take a trip to Albania and ask someone who is more
familiar with this topic.
Anyways im gonna give it a go
for the first one you didn't specify his role... a guy on horseback with a lance doesn't tell me much.
Vidasos - Vije (border) so the Border guy i guess
Thanos seems to be a Greek borrowing instead i doubt that's Illyrian.
Armatos - this is self-explanatory (arma - weapon) Armatos( to arm oneself in Albanian... probably Etruscan ancient IE word
Bindos - Bindes(powerful, able to move men, could be related to
the might of sea)... besides the Illyrian god of the sea was Redon...
this is either borrowed from Thracian Bendis.
Anzotika - This one is probably a Thracian God instead of Illyrian...
Thracians usually used a lot of "z's" in their Gods such as Hebeleyzis,
Zalmoxis etc.
As for my Etruscan comment it wasn't directed to anyone in specific but
a general observasion I thought might add something to the discussion
as it did, but you must have missed Maju's post.
As for Romanian, I know exactly what I said and you know exactly what I
mean. We've done this before so let's not repeat it here, the original
topic is still open as I recall. You can either take it there or
address the linguists that came to this conclusion. see: H. Kronasser,
R. Katicic, G. Alfldy
Romanian is latin and Albanian has
plenty of Latin words in it, im not saying anything to deny that. I
think you mean that the forms of the words of Latin are relatively
new(medival) and not Roman as far as i recall but i dont see any
revelance it has to the topic we are discussing.
And yes, ARAB, everyone knows that the Ottoman language which is
very different to 'modern' Turkish was strongly influenced by
Arabic so your language had a large number of Arab loan words even if
that happened via the Ottomans..
Hmm thats exactly what i said... you are just playing parrot
neritan
What exactly is the Hellinic word you wrote cause I can't make anything of it??
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Edited by vulkan02
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Phallanx
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 08:15 |
Rediculous?? OK as you like..
I could have presented the 'classic' explanation that Zeus is nothing
more than the possessive case of 'tou Dios'. That derives from the
alleged IE root 'Dyeus' that gave the name to other Gods like the Latin
'Deus', Vedic 'Dyaus', the Germanic 'Tiwaz', Sanskrit Dydus...etc..
But that isn't good enough for me,
since I'm against the IE theory and I try to look into the myth and see
the connection of the name to it, I try to find the meaning..
As seen in the example of Athena, that is clearly connected to the myth
or an older post pertaining to the name and deeds of Herakles. Of
course they are open to rejection and alterations but 'Zot' ????
I mean please, give me a break.. but you classify something you can't comprehend as rediculous..
Anyway, I spent a couple of min' looking into this online dictionary
that for some mysterious reason (I wonder why) doesn't acknowledge your
"Vije" and "Bindes" but it must be some kind of technicality (I hope)..
The word "arma" actually proves nothing since it exists both in
neighboring Latin, ater Italian, and both ancient and 'modern' Hellinic (not
to mention French and English) many suggest a proto-IE root "ar"..but
then again...
So as I said since the first written records of Albanian date to the
15th cent. this proves nothing, it could have been adopted at literally
any time, from ancient to just a couple of centuries ago. We have no
way of knowing..
From what I know, Vidasus as explained by W. Meid is connected to the
old Germanic root "id" = tree/forest, also seen as "wid" and in Irish
as "fid", so it might be an adoption from the Celtic tribes like that
of the "Japodes" that had settled in the area..
As I said the topic is still open and the names of the linguists have
been posted. Linguists that came to the conclusion that ancient
loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic
form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of
western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore,
did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
Parrot???
You said semi-correct, so I just cleared that I'm as usual 100% correct and cocky as always.
Edited by Phallanx
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Maju
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 13:29 |
Ok, guys, let's not start a flame war Greek vs. Albanian. In what
regards to me Greeks and Albanians can have shared the Blacans since
the eanderthal man. The point here is not if Albanians are Illyrians or
Moesians or Thracians or Dacians or whatever. Same for Greeks. The pont
is that Albanians could have been in the Balcans in the period we are
talking about under another name or whatever and that they could be
related to Etruscans and Lemnians, if those transcriptions are correct.
I'd like to focus in the Etrusco-Albanian connection and forget about
the disputes on Greek gods. I'd also like to avoid foul language and
derogative phrases and mocking attitudes. Only with outmost respect we
can exchange and find the truth.
I truly would like Albanian speakers to say honestly if they can sit in
front of an Etruscan transcription like those posted above and
understand what is written in them more or less. That's the most
important thing.
Thanks to all hose that are showing good will. I am truly interested in clearing up this matter as far as possible.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 16:05 |
Originally posted by Maju
Ok, guys, let's not start a flame war Greek vs. Albanian. In what
regards to me Greeks and Albanians can have shared the Blacans since
the eanderthal man. The point here is not if Albanians are Illyrians or
Moesians or Thracians or Dacians or whatever. Same for Greeks. The pont
is that Albanians could have been in the Balcans in the period we are
talking about under another name or whatever and that they could be
related to Etruscans and Lemnians, if those transcriptions are correct.
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Thats the point that im trying to make too. The name might have not
always been Albanian but rather differnet tribes with similar
linguistic customs who eventually got preserved under one great
surviving one over time.
Its hard and time consuming to fully try to understand what the whole
statement means in Albanian. Does the author where you got it from
offer this?
Well Ill tell you in one shot that no Albanian speaker will simply stay
in front of the wall and tell you exactly what it means. This is a
language that has gone extinct for more than 2000 years ago. A lot of
changes can happen in all those years even if some part of it is indeed
represented in Albanian. It also seems that the writting is written
backwords or was the picture just taken that way??
One thing though is Albanian grammar is very complicated and a serious student of the language will tell you this.
Albanian has 2 forms(active and inactive) and 8 tenses per verb... that
means you can conjugate certain words 16 different ways! There is
tenses that im unsure if other neighboring languages have such as
wishful, Indicative etc.
For example a simple word such as
Punoj - (to work)
wishful tense
Une(I) punofsha (I wish I could/can work)
Ti(you) punofsh
Ai/Ajo(he/she) punofte
Ne(Us) punofshim
Ju(You) punofsh*t
Ata/Ato(They) punofshin
I don't know if other languages use the type of conjugation such as the
one described above. Could this have been Etruscan in origin??
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 16:51 |
Gents, let's stick to the original topic, no need for name calling or getting ourselves worked up into a flame war.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 17:10 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Parrot???
You said semi-correct, so I just cleared that I'm as usual 100% correct and cocky as always.
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While I can't criticize you from being cocky, people who think they are "100% correct" usually aren't.
You were 50% correct because these words didn't come straight from
Arabia... they came from the Turks who borrowed and who have probably
changed them around a little or a lot so there. And also one more
thing: you usually laugh a lot when you read things you don't agree
on... seems like you use a lot of emotional impulses in order to
discredit the statements without first trying to reason through.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Phallanx
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 19:30 |
Anyway, question.
Maju, since you're into the whole IE theory tell me :
Isn't Etruscan classified as a non-IE language
and if so, how can there be enough or so many connections
to give anyone the ability of translating a non-IE text/language with
an IE language, is this feat possible ???
Sorry to be so absolute on this, but this whole hipothesis reminds me
of the older dumped theory of Albanians being the decendants of
Pelasgians..
Edited by Phallanx
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Maju
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 20:10 |
Etruscan is classified as isolate.
That means that they don't know of any sufficiently proven
classification. But that doesn't mean that someone can't eventually
come and say: I have found the relative and is... (Albanian??).
Albanian itself is in the verge of IE classification. All trees of IE
(that I've seen) show it as separate branch near the origins. Philology
anyhow is not any exact science but rather is subject to opinions and
heated discussions, specially when the subject is not clear. I mean
everybody agrees in the existence of IE family but guess there may be
one or two that say that Albanian is not correctly in it or that
Etruscan should be. And IE is the family that has been best studied and
that gathers the greatest agreement. When you come to Uralo-Altaic and
things like that... buff!
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Maju
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Posted: 19-Oct-2005 at 20:27 |
Originally posted by vulkan02
Its hard and time consuming to fully try to understand what the whole
statement means in Albanian. Does the author where you got it from
offer this? |
Sorry, I didn't post it originally. It was Albanian Trilogy, a
suspended member that coiped and pasted all the time. In my post there
is a link to his locked topic. It's all I can offer.
Well Ill tell you in one shot that no Albanian speaker will simply stay
in front of the wall and tell you exactly what it means. This is a
language that has gone extinct for more than 2000 years ago. A lot of
changes can happen in all those years even if some part of it is indeed
represented in Albanian. It also seems that the writting is written
backwords or was the picture just taken that way??
One thing though is Albanian grammar is very complicated and a serious student of the language will tell you this.
Albanian has 2 forms(active and inactive) and 8 tenses per verb... that
means you can conjugate certain words 16 different ways! There is
tenses that im unsure if other neighboring languages have such as
wishful, Indicative etc.
For example a simple word such as
Punoj - (to work)
wishful tense
Une(I) punofsha (I wish I could/can work)
Ti(you) punofsh
Ai/Ajo(he/she) punofte
Ne(Us) punofshim
Ju(You) punofsh*t
Ata/Ato(They) punofshin
I don't know if other languages use the type of conjugation such as the
one described above. Could this have been Etruscan in origin??
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I don't know enough about Etruscan. But Latin, which is influenced,
definitively has many verbal conjugations, a trait that (unlike
declinations) has passed to all Romance languages. Yet the wishful
tense seems a little too far away.
Wikipedia says that:
Although some modern scholars claim that Etruscan is either distantly related to Indo-European, or even a member of the Indo-European branch of Anatolian languages (see Lemnian language), and others that it is part of some theoretical super-family like Nostratic, there is no conclusive evidence of either.
In his Natural History (1st century AD), Pliny wrote about Alpine peoples: "The Rhaetians and the Vindelicans border with these [Noricans],
all distributed in numerous cities. The Gauls maintain that the
Raetians descend from the Etruscans, pushed back under the leadership
of Raetus." Thus linguists suggest that Etruscan ought to be related to
Raetic and to Camunic,
another ancient but minor Alpine language of northern Italy. Neither
language was ever written, and suggestive traces in Roman placenames
(see toponymy) and tribal designations have not been very informative yet.
The obscure roots of Etruscan continue to attract speculation from
farther afield as well. A recent book by Italian linguist Mario Alinei
assembles evidence supporting the contention of Hungarian scholars that
Etruscan is distantly related to Magyar. In its support it is
additionally suggested that the Etruscans were those Trojans on the
European side of the Hellespont, whom a Greek naval blockade cut off
from their compatriots on the Asian side and in Lemnos during the
Trojan War. According to this theory, Etruscan's Ugric grammar also
formed the grammatical basis of the Latin spoken by the patricians of
Rome.
It also offer links to several glossaries of Etruscan words:
And this list of links on mainstream and alternative works on etruscan interpretation: http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/etrweb/language.htm#mainstream (some are broken, some seem weird but others could be interesting).
Nothing on the Albano-Etruscan connection though.
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Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 14:11 |
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by neritan
Same scholalars have assumed that albanian has preseved also some other pre-IE words
Cabej:lepjete in c.p with greek λαπαηον; Vere, Vene "wine"; shege " pomegranate"
Baric: (H)ardhi in c.p with basque "Ardeo"; bisht "tail"; mal "mountain"; sh-kurre "scrub".
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Also there's no Basque word "ardeo". There is ardo (wine), ardi (sheep), arto (millet, now maize) and arte (between, also a type of oak).
The three first terms could come from the East, via the Mediterranean
or other route, as neither product is original from the country, but
were imported at some time. Ardi (sheep) and arto (corn, millet) should have come with the Mediterranean Neolithic, unless it's a Neolithic neologism based in some other word. Ahari (ram), for instance, resembles too much Greek aries to be just a coincidence.
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you're right. The word is ardao 'wine'
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/balkan/ehamp.html#9.
neritan
What exactly is the Hellinic word you wrote cause I can't make anything of it??
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Edited by neritan
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DayI
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Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 14:26 |
i dunno but when i first saw an Etruscan script, it does very look like Gok Turk script, sorry if im misleading someone.
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Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 14:43 |
Originally posted by Phallanx
Parrot???
You said semi-correct, so I just cleared that I'm as usual 100% correct and cocky as always.
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100% correct
Look this your post PHALLANX. Is same logic of Albanian-Etruscan connection
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