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If USSR had lost to Nazi Germany?

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: If USSR had lost to Nazi Germany?
    Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 17:50

What if, during the landing and first couple weeks after the Dday landings, Nazi Germany would have somehow broken through in Leningrad and somehow captured Moscow or forced the Russians to surrender and they were defeated. With this Allied force now in France, could they still push all the way to Germany on there own before alot of Nazi soldiers were taken from the Russian front to the western front? Would the Allies even still push on?

Not to create another topic, but another senario if what if the Dday invasion was a failure? This would be a huge moral blow, and would the allies consider another attempt at an invasion? What would the Russian responce be to this?

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  Quote dirtnap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 18:01
Originally posted by strategos

What if, during the landing and first couple weeks after the Dday landings, Nazi Germany would have somehow broken through in Leningrad and somehow captured Moscow or forced the Russians to surrender and they were defeated. With this Allied force now in France, could they still push all the way to Germany on there own before alot of Nazi soldiers were taken from the Russian front to the western front? Would the Allies even still push on?


Not to create another topic, but another senario if what if the Dday invasion was a failure? This would be a huge moral blow, and would the allies consider another attempt at an invasion? What would the Russian responce be to this?



IMO the allies would probably have decided to level Berlin with (the bomb) if Russia fell or if Dday was a failure. Just like in Japan...

Too much would be lost and with the shift in power under that scenario I think the decision would have been made to level Germany immediately...


Edited by dirtnap
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 18:08

The Allies will probably pushed back simply because if you everview the battles on the West you will probably see that the Alles have prety much trouble even with the pittiful forces that the Germans had deploed.Now imagine only if the half of the easten front army visit the west,not only that but it won be so easy now for the Allies to control the skies cuz Luvtwafe (not sure about the spelling) will return from the east.Plus in case USSR defeated probably there must be some kind of reparations for the Axis,these reparations will refresh Germany war machine.With Russia out of the war Germany easaly can push back the allies both from normandy and Italy

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 18:14
Germans would never win at the Eastern Front. If they were successful at Stalingrad, they could continue fighting after 1945. But in the long run, Soviets would win. Russia is just too big for the Nazis, that's for sure.

I don't think a failure at Normandy would affect the result of World War II.

Edited by Barış
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 18:25
D-day was made for no other reason but to stop Soviets from marching west to France.Stalin asked them to make the second front in 1943 but they didnt.In 1944 they saw that the Soviets will beat Germany without their help.
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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 06:44

Without the USSR the USA and Britain couldn't be defeat Germany. The 80 percent of the Wermacht and the Eastern European allieds of the Axes were defeated by the Red Army. The Soviets didn't have only the biggest army in the world history, but they had excellent equipment. And not only before, but after the D-day the German main forces were contained in the Eastern front.

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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 06:49
Without the Western Allieds the USSR was able to conqure Europe until the Atlantic Ocean. Without the Soviet Union Westerners were pressed to use nuclear weapons.
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 07:03
Originally posted by Subotai

The Allies will probably pushed back simply because if you everview the battles on the West you will probably see that the Alles have prety much trouble even with the pittiful forces that the Germans had deploed.Now imagine only if the half of the easten front army visit the west,not only that but it won be so easy now for the Allies to control the skies cuz Luvtwafe (not sure about the spelling) will return from the east.Plus in case USSR defeated probably there must be some kind of reparations for the Axis,these reparations will refresh Germany war machine.With Russia out of the war Germany easaly can push back the allies both from normandy and Italy

100% correct.



Edited by the Bulgarian
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 07:03

Originally posted by Bar

Germans would never win at the Eastern Front. If they were successful at Stalingrad, they could continue fighting after 1945. But in the long run, Soviets would win. Russia is just too big for the Nazis, that's for sure.

I don't think a failure at Normandy would affect the result of World War II.

100% correct.



Edited by the Bulgarian
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 07:04

Originally posted by Subotai

D-day was made for no other reason but to stop Soviets from marching west to France.Stalin asked them to make the second front in 1943 but they didnt.In 1944 they saw that the Soviets will beat Germany without their help.

100% correct.

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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 07:05
Originally posted by Nagyfejedelem

Without the USSR the USA and Britain couldn't be defeat Germany. The 80 percent of the Wermacht and the Eastern European allieds of the Axes were defeated by the Red Army. The Soviets didn't have only the biggest army in the world history, but they had excellent equipment. And not only before, but after the D-day the German main forces were contained in the Eastern front.

100% correct.

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 07:42
D-Day fails: the Red Army does little more than lift an unconcerned eye-brow and then march on to their inevitable victory.
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  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 09:43
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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 18:25

The only way for Nazi Germany to have defeated the Soviet Union was Japan's invasion of the Soviet Union rather than initiating war with the United States. The Soviets had a powerful force on its eastern coast, anticipating war with Japan, and sent all of this west when it was sure that Japan would not attack. Have the Soviet Union fight on two fronts, spreading out its forces, then it would be defeated.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2005 at 19:13
Originally posted by Subotai

The Allies will probably pushed back simply because if you everview the battles on the West you will probably see that the Alles have prety much trouble even with the pittiful forces that the Germans had deploed.Now imagine only if the half of the easten front army visit the west,not only that but it won be so easy now for the Allies to control the skies cuz Luvtwafe (not sure about the spelling) will return from the east.Plus in case USSR defeated probably there must be some kind of reparations for the Axis,these reparations will refresh Germany war machine.With Russia out of the war Germany easaly can push back the allies both from normandy and Italy



I do agree with you. Furthermore, if Russia would have been done by the Germans, they would have had all the necessary resources to build up a navy and possibly defeat Britain.

Not that the Nazis were particularly interested in invading Britain, they were interested in taking Russia and the reason were its enormous resources of raw materials and manpower. The plan of the Nazis was to make of Russia "the India of Germany", so they could compete in "equal terms" with other powers such as the UK or the USA.

But for the dates suggested, I would say it was already too late ofr the Nazis. If Mussolini wouldn't have attacked Greece, maybe the Germans could have attacked Russia in time and taken it in a blitz... maybe only.

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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 09:14

Originally posted by Constantine XI

D-Day fails: the Red Army does little more than lift an unconcerned eye-brow and then march on to their inevitable victory.

Very well said. Bravo!

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 23:06
Originally posted by Constantine XI

D-Day fails: the Red Army does little more than lift an unconcerned eye-brow and then march on to their inevitable victory.


I doubt they would be this unnerved. One of D-Day's prompts was Stalin's demand that the Allies open another front to draw Germans from Russia. They'd be a little angry at least.
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  Quote Nagyfejedelem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2005 at 05:31
Originally posted by Belisarius

The only way for Nazi Germany to have defeated the Soviet Union was Japan's invasion of the Soviet Union rather than initiating war with the United States. The Soviets had a powerful force on its eastern coast, anticipating war with Japan, and sent all of this west when it was sure that Japan would not attack. Have the Soviet Union fight on two fronts, spreading out its forces, then it would be defeated.

Yes, the Red Army could started the counter-offensive of Moscow only with the eastern forces.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 15:20
I personally think that if Germany had defeated Russia, they would have linked up with the Japanese through Korea and Manchuria.
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  Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 15:40
Originally posted by the Bulgarian

Originally posted by Subotai

D-day was made for no other reason but to stop Soviets from marching west to France.Stalin asked them to make the second front in 1943 but they didnt.In 1944 they saw that the Soviets will beat Germany without their help.

100% correct.

 

Utter Rubbish!!!. 

 

The planning for an attack on the French coast began straight after the Dunkirk evecuation.  The Dieppe raid of 1942 showed how dangerous it was and the allies went for it as soon as they felt ready and had a good chance of success. That was in in 1944 and only after immense preparation.  The only time the British were concerned about the Soviet advance was in 1945  when the British army was ordered to ensure that they secured the German border with Denmark to prevent the Soviets from "liberating" Denmark.

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