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jfmff
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Topic: "Its the end of the world!!!" Is it? Posted: 21-Nov-2005 at 22:44 |
The skeptical environmentalist
We are all familiar with environmentalist concerns. We are rapidly
destroying our planet.Our resources are runing out. The population is
growing exponencialy. Food is not suficient to all. Polution is
omnipresent. Species are exitinguishing at a rate of 40000 for year.
Forests are disapearing. Etc.
There's only one litle thing: Its not true!
It all began with Bjorn Lomborg, a Greenpeace activist and Statistics
Professor at Aarhus University. After some right wing polititian said
that the environmentalist concerns were a mith he decided to form a
team and to scientificaly analise the oficial numbers of the UN, EU,
FMI and its suborganizations responsible for individual subjects like
WHO, IPCC, FAO,etc. , on environment. His conclusions were quite
shocking! Here are some of them:
1-Population: the population
growth is not out of control. Its growth rate had its peak in 1960 and
is diminuishing; todays' value is 1/5 of the growth rate in 1960. UN
estimates that world population will stabilize in 11.000.000.000 at
2100.
2- Hunger: Food is not becoming
scarce. Acording to UN we produce 23% more of food per capita than in
1961. In the 3rd world countries, in the same period, the growth of
ingested calories was 38% per capita. The subnutrition went from 35% of
the world population to 18% and is expected to be 12% in 2010. There
was 920 million people sufering from hunger in 1970 and now the number
is 784 millions (Lets not forget that in this period the 3rd world
population doubled). Furthermore the agricultural growth rate is 20 times the population growth so there is no inerent food shortage problem.
3- Forests: The foresteal area
is not diminuishing. Since 1950 until 1994 it went to 30.04% to 30.89%.
The desforestation rate is not 1.5% to 4.6% but one tenth of it. And
this number doesn't count with the reforestation.
4- Energy: We don't have the
danger of an energetic crisis. We have oil for more than 100 years.
Besides oil there are alternatives such as schist oil which is 8 times
more energetic than oil. Estimates say there is 242 times more schist
oil than oil. Moroever, if solar energy technology continues to grow at
the current rate, solar energy will become industrialy competitive in
about 2030 and will substitute almost all other forms of energy in
2065. The actual world's energy demand would be satisfied if 2.6% of
the Sahara desert was covered with solar pannels.
5- Biodiversity: the extinction rate is not the alarming 10%-100% in 50 years but "just" 0.7%.
6- Polution: Contrary to
general beliefs, polution has decreased imensely in the last decades.
In 3rd world countries though, polution is increasing but once the
development is high enough (2500 dolars per capita) it will largely
decrease. They are folowing the exact same patern as 1st world
countries. There is no apocaliptical scenario here.
7- Acid rain: In the 80's was
described as "environmental Hiroxima". A recent study decided this
question: acid rain doesn't afect th tree's growth and development.
8- Ozone layer: The ozone
concentration already reached its minimum. Now is slowly growing and
will be normalised in 50 years. If you are worried with the radiation
levels you recieve because of the ozone hole, let me give you an
example: At what latitude, with the ozone layer intact, would
correspond the actual levels of radiation in Washington DC? 180 Km
South!
Of course the reactions to this were extreeme, similar to those of
fundamentalist sects when their dogmas are questioned. The only critic
that remains plausible (in my opinion) is that he oversimplified the
global
warming issue.
What do you think of this?
PS: For more references see Lomborg's book "The sckeptical
environmentalist" which is a scholarship work of reference with 500
pages, 1800 bibliographic references and 3000 notes. If you are just
curious see www.lomborg.org and www.anti-lomborg.com
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Maju
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Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 05:12 |
1. Population: It's likely that it will be stabilized at some point,
specially if there is a major pandemic, famine or some other Malthusian
limitation. I don't think we will have to wait for 2100. It will happen
a lot earlier and it will be very painful.
2. Hunger: the green revoltion has some major limts and actually
industrial agriculture is one of the major polluters and water wasting
activities of the World. I doub that this system can continue like this
for long.
3. Forests: maybe total surface has been kept balanced but most
important forests, specially rainforest jungle (that has hundreds times
the diversity of boreal ones) are being extremely damaged in a clearly
increasing and untenable rate. Industrial forests (plantations) are
clearly not the same as natural biodiverse ones.
4. Energy: while the demand keeps increasing steadily, the offer has
not kept pace. Oil prices have recently gone mad due to the
impossibilty of greater extractions and the rigidity of the demand.
Nuclear energy is hardly a valid alternative, fussion is just science
fiction so far and renewbable energy sources are only gaining ground
very very slowly, despite their many advantages (due to cost mostly).
5. Biodiversity: I strongly doubt that ridiculous 0.7% figure. Though
conservation has improved, pressure has also increased. We are
destroying strategic ecosystems like rainforest, coral reefs and
wetlands (and many others) at a too strong path. The list of species in
the verge of total extintion is still enormous.
6. Pollution keeps being a major problem. Many things are just not
sufficiently measured: plaguicides, radiation, etc. Maybe smog has
decreased in the industrialized world (with many industries moving to
the cheaper and less demanding developing areas) but other sources of
pollution are increasingly alarming. That pollution has moved from New
York to Mexico City doesn't necessarily mean that it has decreased
anyhow.
7. Acid rain has a serious effect killing lakes. It's no trivial matter though other concerns have displaced it partly.
8. Ozone layer: ???
...
Why your report doesn't mention the worst concern nowadays: global warming?
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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khalid bin walid
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Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 06:04 |
Bird flu- could be catastrophic within next 5 years.
Biggest threat to the world as we know it in the short term, make no mistake.
Governments should be doing much, much more.
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Cywr
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Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 07:40 |
Hmm forest cover maybe increasing globaly, but regionaly is where it
matters, Europe (and possibly N. America) is the only continent where
forest cover iscreasing (in part due to the CAP's set aside thing, adn
in part due to better manegement of forests and commercial logging
activities), everywhere else it is shrinking.
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Arrrgh!!"
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DukeC
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Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 12:17 |
The world isn't ending but we're going through global climate change which could accelerate as certain areas of the Arctic warm up.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725124.500
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Decebal
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Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 12:34 |
As other people have pointed out, his conclusions are missing some of the problems, and misrepresenting others. I'll add in my two cents.
1. Population: yes, it will stabilize, but before that it will require more food, which means more areas under cultivation, more loss of habitat and more deforestation, especially in tropical areas.
2. Hunger: while food demands have been met so far, the measures taken could create great havod down the road. For example, in Ethiopia, a lot of forests have been cut down to make way for cultivated fields. As a result, erosion has increased dramatically (creating a potential Dust Bowl situation), and it has resulted in the waters of the Nile becoming very silty. This can have a dramatic effect in the long run in overpopulated places such as Egypt.
4. energy. I find this statement extremely doubtful: "schist oil which is 8 times more energetic than oil" As far as I know, schist oil is simply oil which is combined with other materials (rocks, sand). It is difficult and expensive to extract, and once extracted and refined it is the same as oil.
5. biodiversity: http://www.ecoglobe.ch/biodiv/e/guar5330.htm
Also, what about all the species which are endangered, but not yet extinct? Is having a handful of survivors on a reservation under active protection really the same as having a healthy population in the wild in the original range?
6. Polution: keep in mind that many types of polution are cumulative, or stay in the environment for tens or hundreds of years. Just because the rate of pollution has slowed down, that doesn't mean that the Earth is back the way it was. The damage has already been done.
8. Ozone layer: that last statement doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Nagyfejedelem
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Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 12:59 |
Nobody mentioned the urbanisation, the expansion of deserts and the want of water.
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DukeC
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Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 14:37 |
Higher nighttime temperatures also mean reduced agricultural production, especially in rice, one of the most important food crops in the world.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5324343
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Cezar
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Posted: 22-Nov-2005 at 14:46 |
What does "world" mean? Is it something like human civilisation and all what that it's about? Is it life, as we know it, or is it just human life? If those threats would be targeted strictly and directly against all life but human would we even bother about them? If ther are questions, what are the answers? Since we are the top predator, or species, or whatever of this planet, at this time let's check first for concerns, and then for answers.
1. Population. The human population must grow. It can't reach a balance unless it solves it be itself. Population means more or less human society. Which is made of animals that are somewhat a little bit more selfconscious than lesser species. Most of the humans don't even bother about such a problem. On a very rough view, there are this kind of people:
- Those who don't want to have children/heirs
- Those who don't feel like needing an more than one or two children/heirs.
- Those who don't care of how many children they giving birth.
- Those who are urged to have as many offspring as they can.
The reason for their behaviour may be different in each case but it still leads to the idea that if no growth of the population is wanted, we need either to find a balance between this kind of people or resume to give birth to only one child for every dead person. Can human society reach this? I kind of doubt it.
2. Hunger. Hunger is not directly related to the developement level of any country or the quantity of food produced. It has more to do with the ability of people to get the food they need. "Food" is also not just quantity, it's also quality. One can't just eat only bread. He needs a diversified food. He might be able to get 6 breads a day, he can't even eat that much, but that will not save him for getting sick and dying of some disease only because he couldn't get some kind of food he needed. Hunger is not solved with just a full belly!
3. Forests. We're at war with them. We need them because we need oxygen. Since we weren't able to develop cost-effective means to produce oxygen we still need to rely on other producers of that stuff. We also need for a lot of other things. Some of these things lead us to encouragge forest conservation and growth, some don't. After all we couldn't gave up to use wood and we can produce it. Maybe is some kinky way of tying up with our ancestors! How many environmentalists have a chimney in their house?
4. Energy. It's just like food, even worse! How many of the people you know care to turn off the lights? How many of you would walk instead of driving their own car? If I come at work usin rollerblades people will think I'm nuts! And manufacturing rollerblades is still energy consuming? Can human society reach a level of education when each and every person would look at every drop of energy as if it was the last one available? I think not?
5. Biodiversity. To have common people really understand that this is necessary! Either they will be afraid to kill a mosquito or would eat the last green turtle. There's no going to extremes and we still don't know how to measure biodiversity in terms of neccessity. *Whaddya sa'd matey? Dolphins? Whoo care 'bout those phish? I 'ad to kill down two of 'hem. Tangled my net you know, 'ese durn phish!"
6. Polution. Yeah, right! Everybody's scared but nobody really knows what's about. "Don't eat that, it's full of E-s!". "Oh my God! Thank you, I'll take that one."."No, No, you fool, it's got W-s!"."Oh, I forgot that! I'll have a bottle of beer."."But..."."Yeah, I know, it might not be ozone friendly or the CO2 released would increase the hothouse effect... Listen, do you want me to starve, or what? Go back to your nuclear plant and let me have my lunch!". And there are some natural phenomena, like volcanos, that can generate such an ammount of polution ... And us, humans, are still far from being so allmighty to dictate what a volcano would do. Can we stop the Earth from growing a pimple? What about a dirty comet? Not a "Deep Impact" one but one that would be breaking into zillions tiny fragments of ice freezed poisonous gasses that would eventually fall on our planet? Polution is, I think, one of the least threats. Actually, our ecosystem is the result of some tiny organisms starting to polute the atmosphere with oxygen
7. Acid rain. This is redundand. Is not acid rain directly tied up with polution? O where there always acid rains and only now we noticed them. Well, like I said before, polution is natural.
8. Ozone layer. Now, that's something that everybody understands! Of course environmentalists wouldn't like somethin like "ozone concentration". Someone would come up with something like "ozone in concentration of 1.3 parts in a million is a lethally toxic". It's also redundant, as it is the result of polution. And it's about UV rays. Wow, that is also funny! "Look babe, I love your tane, but is full of UV's out there, the ozone layer is thin!". "UV-s? Who are they?"."I..I don't really know, but they are said to be dangerous. They're some kind of X rays of the sun!."."Oh, c'mon hon! Look, I got my sunglasses and my lotion. 100% proof against UV's."."So ... you know what they are?"."No, but if I get hurt I will sue those who sold me these products. We'll win a fortune, and we won't be needing to bother again about UV's. Let's go and don't turn off the air conditioner, I want to cool myself a little when we get back".
And forget about these. Think of what some guy who put all his faith in God (not necessary Chritian) would say:
- "There's nothing to worry, I have faith that God will show me/us/some of us/to those He will chose the way out of it"
- "God is watching us and will let nothing to happen to us"
- "It is God will, He is punishing us for our sins!. Only those who embrace Him might survive!"
- "It is imaterial, God never spoke of such things!"
- .........
*We're not dead, we're just not dead yet!
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jfmff
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Posted: 23-Nov-2005 at 20:43 |
Originally posted by Maju
1. Population: It's likely that it will be stabilized at
some point, specially if there is a major pandemic, famine or some
other Malthusian limitation. I don't think we will have to wait for
2100. It will happen a lot earlier and it will be very painful.
2. Hunger: the green revoltion has some major limts and actually
industrial agriculture is one of the major polluters and water wasting
activities of the World. I doub that this system can continue like this
for long.
3. Forests: maybe total surface has been kept balanced but most
important forests, specially rainforest jungle (that has hundreds times
the diversity of boreal ones) are being extremely damaged in a clearly
increasing and untenable rate. Industrial forests (plantations) are
clearly not the same as natural biodiverse ones.
4. Energy: while the demand keeps increasing steadily, the offer has
not kept pace. Oil prices have recently gone mad due to the
impossibilty of greater extractions and the rigidity of the demand.
Nuclear energy is hardly a valid alternative, fussion is just science
fiction so far and renewbable energy sources are only gaining ground
very very slowly, despite their many advantages (due to cost mostly).
5. Biodiversity: I strongly doubt that ridiculous 0.7% figure. Though
conservation has improved, pressure has also increased. We are
destroying strategic ecosystems like rainforest, coral reefs and
wetlands (and many others) at a too strong path. The list of species in
the verge of total extintion is still enormous.
6. Pollution keeps being a major problem. Many things are just not
sufficiently measured: plaguicides, radiation, etc. Maybe smog has
decreased in the industrialized world (with many industries moving to
the cheaper and less demanding developing areas) but other sources of
pollution are increasingly alarming. That pollution has moved from New
York to Mexico City doesn't necessarily mean that it has decreased
anyhow.
7. Acid rain has a serious effect killing lakes. It's no trivial matter though other concerns have displaced it partly.
8. Ozone layer: ???
...
Why your report doesn't mention the worst concern nowadays: global warming?
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I haven't read the "Sckeptical Environmentalist" but I will try to
discuss what I have understood from the article I read from which I
extracted all this information.
One important thing to know is that after the scandal broke up, the
greenpeace leader in Denmark gave an interview were he stated that he
knew most of the environmentalists concerns were completely
disproporcional to reality. He said most of their causes were solved by
10 years ago. However, he admited that the greenpeace strategy was to
alarm people so they would worry enough for their causes.
Another important thing to know is that it was created a comition
against scientific dishonesty in denmark with Bjorn Lomborg on the
target. They acused him of manipulating data without reason. the case
lasted for a few years and they (the comission) droped the case against
him because they had nothing.
I didn't mention global warming because it's a much more dificult
subject to evaluate. A few years ago, UN was discussing 40 diferent
models for what is global warming all about. If you ever heard of the
buterfly efect, non-linear/chaotic dynamic systems, you will understand
why is such a dificult subject to discuss climate changes.
1- Why painful?
2- Yes you're partialy right. But the point was to show that there is
no inerent problem in feeding 11.000.000.000 persons. Lets not forget
that the peak of the water polution was about 40/50 years ago.
3- I agree. They are not the same. However, in the case of Amazonia for
example: mankind have distructed 14% of amazonia. My, and I think most
of the people, idea was something like 50%. 3% of Amazonia was
reforestated but with time I think this "artificial" forest will fuse
with the natural forest. It produces oxygen anyway and as for
biodiversity see point 5.
4- I parcialy agree. Energy is geting more expensive and we are going
trough a rough period. However, nuclear energy is a valid option (this
is a topic by it self however), nuclear fusion isn't science fiction
(they already can produce fusion in lab, its a mater of time until its
economicaly profitable; fusion has the potential to solve ALL our
energy problems) and, as I said, renewable energies are coming. But the
main point was that we have alternative resources and we will not have
to light candles in our home wen oil finishes.
5- And I strongly doubt the ridiculous 10%-100%!!! Furthermore 95% of
these species are virus, bacterias, microorganisms and insects.
6- It has decreased in general. although it's rising in 3rd world
countries it will decrease when they develop to 2500 dolars per capita.
They are folowing our path.
7- I don't know. I tend to dolubt it but I will not assume a position.
8- what didn't you understand?
One last couriosity regarding the rise of temperatures in the poles. If
you put an ice cube in a glass of water, when it defrosts it doesn't
add one milimiter to the level of the water. in the same way, all the
icebergs can defrost and it will make no diference.
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Decebal
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Posted: 23-Nov-2005 at 23:16 |
Originally posted by jfmff
One last couriosity regarding the rise of temperatures in the poles. If you put an ice cube in a glass of water, when it defrosts it doesn't add one milimiter to the level of the water. in the same way, all the icebergs can defrost and it will make no diference. |
Uhh, most of the polar ice is on top of land (Antarctica and Greenland). So yeah, if it defrosts, it will be a huge difference!
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Posted: 23-Nov-2005 at 23:35 |
oh... possibility of "The Day After Tomorrow" Theories is gonna be true if this kinda activities keep continuing is it?.... scary....
Is there any possibility of new ice age will be happened? oh.. oh..can Malaysia has snow???
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Cywr
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Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 01:13 |
Day after tomorrow is way out from a climatologists perspective. But new ice ages aren't out of the question.
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Arrrgh!!"
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jfmff
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Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 06:33 |
Originally posted by Decebal
Originally posted by jfmff
One last couriosity
regarding the rise of temperatures in the poles. If you
put an ice cube in a glass of water, when it defrosts it
doesn't add one milimiter to the level of the water. in
the same way, all the icebergs can defrost and it will
make no diference. |
Uhh, most of the polarice is on top of land
(Antarctica and Greenland). So yeah, if it defrosts,
itwill be a huge difference! |
As I said Icebergs can defrost and it will make no
diference. By definition an iceberg is a floating piece
of ice, so... But of course that if you're talking abut
nonfloating ice there's a problem. However I don't know
if the rise of the sea level will be of 100m like it's
said by environmentalists.
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Decebal
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Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 11:22 |
Well, think about it: the Antarctic ice cap is about 15 million square kilometers with an average thickness of 2 km or so. That means about 30 million cube kilometers of ice, or about 3e10 tons of water.
The surface of the oceans is 361 million square kilometers. The water from the melting of the Antarctic ice cap would therefore raise the level by about 83 meters, according to these calculations (you'd get about .083 cube km of ice per each square km of ocean). I've seen figures of 2.3 km for the Antarctic cap average thickness, which would mean about 90 meters. Add to that the volume in the Artic ice cap and you get pretty much 100 meters.
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte
Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Jalisco Lancer
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Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 11:36 |
Originally posted by cahaya
oh... possibility of "The Day After Tomorrow" Theories is gonna be true if this kinda activities keep continuing is it?.... scary....
Is there any possibility of new ice age will be happened? oh.. oh..can Malaysia has snow???
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waiting for that day so we will close our border
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Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 12:46 |
I've always wanted to go to the pole. So if the pole comes to me that
would be great. I'm already looking forward to it, long live the CO2 emission!
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Maju
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Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 14:23 |
Originally posted by jfmff
(...) I didn't mention global warming because it's a much more dificult
subject to evaluate. A few years ago, UN was discussing 40 diferent
models for what is global warming all about. If you ever heard of the
buterfly efect, non-linear/chaotic dynamic systems, you will understand
why is such a dificult subject to discuss climate changes. |
Whatever. The Earth is warming quickly and this is having major
consequences already. But truly, each day I care less: I think most
humans are stupid and short-sighted so who cares about their destiny?
Because pandemics, nuclear wars and other Malthusian limits are
intrinsecally painful: they kill a lot of people in a painful manner.
2- Yes you're partialy right. But the point was to show that there is
no inerent problem in feeding 11.000.000.000 persons. Lets not forget
that the peak of the water polution was about 40/50 years ago. |
Globally or in your county?
[quote ]3- I agree. They are not the same. However, in the case of Amazonia for
example: mankind have distructed 14% of amazonia. My, and I think most
of the people, idea was something like 50%. 3% of Amazonia was
reforestated but with time I think this "artificial" forest will fuse
with the natural forest. It produces oxygen anyway and as for
biodiversity see point 5. [/quote]
Can somebody link a good source explaining how Amazonia has in fact
been deforested for about the half and not just a ridiculous 14%,
please?
Can someone explain this guy that pelagic fishing ships are destroying
the sea as source of food at an extremely fast pace? (Something that
Greenpece doesn't denounce by the way). Today is the day when fishermen
go out and come back with near empty hands thanks to just a couple of
decades of pelagic fishing. The Sea is half dead.
4- I parcialy agree. Energy is geting more expensive and we are going
trough a rough period. However, nuclear energy is a valid option (this
is a topic by it self however), |
It's not valid. It creates much more problems that solves. We would
better lit with candles than support nuclear waste and other associated
risks.
... nuclear fusion isn't science fiction
(they already can produce fusion in lab, its a mater of time until its
economicaly profitable; fusion has the potential to solve ALL our
energy problems) |
Nuclear fusion is still science fiction they are bulding now (in the
next decades) a reactor in France to see if it can be generated in
earth at all. It's all very experimental. Nothing done in lab apart of
formulas: to achieve fussion you need extreme energies that can't be
generated in any conventional lab.
and, as I said, renewable energies are coming. |
At a extremely slow pace, with many resistences.
But the
main point was that we have alternative resources and we will not have
to light candles in our home wen oil finishes. |
As I said above, I prefer candles to nuclear waste and other dangers.
Of course if the USA offers itself as nuclear cementery for the
world... then maybe.
6- It has decreased in general. although it's rising in 3rd world
countries it will decrease when they develop to 2500 dolars per capita.
They are folowing our path. |
Don't be naive. The cheap labor / high pollution industries are moving to the "south". Overall pollution is still on the rise.
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jfmff
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Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 15:51 |
Instead of we arguing about this I will provide arguments against
Lomborg's conclusions that are made by scientists and therefore are
more autoritative on these subjects; see:
http://www.grist.org/advice/books/2001/12/12/of/
This subject is for experts. However I will make some final observations.
One of the topics (and of course the most important one) is statistics:
he is acused of selective use of data, exageration, etc. , i.e., he is
acused of scientifical dishonesty. Well the comission against
scientifical dishonesty droped their charges against him because of
lack of proofs. See http://www.imv.dk/Default.aspx?ID=233 for a better
understanding and also the links on the bottom of the website. This
means that the main critic against Lomborg is wrong and not based on
scientific evidence. This is Lomborg's biggest victory since it show's
that the environmentalist's comunity hasn't got science and objective
truth as its main concern. This said there can only be two options: he
is incompetent or he is wright on what he says. However I never heard
about his incompetence anywere... (except on the topic of global
warming). Anyhow, only scientific evidence will decide this and since
I'm not a scientist I will remain neutral.
PS: Maju see this before falsely claiming that fusion in lab is
nothing more than formulas... http://www.jet.efda.org/
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Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
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Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Nov-2005 at 16:13 |
PS: Maju see this before falsely claiming that fusion in lab is
nothing more than formulas... http://www.jet.efda.org/ |
Well anyhow the experimental true reactor in France won't be ready till
two decades from now. And it's just an experiment. Even if everything
goes perfectly, no fussion energy will be real before I'm dead. So it's
science-fiction.
Now read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4467420.stm
Current levels of the greenhouse gases carbon dioxide
and methane in the atmosphere are higher now than at any time in the
last 650,000 years. It's the conclussion of digging artc ice back to 900,000 years. Never in 600 milennia CO2
and methane have been so high in our atmosphere. CO2 is 30% higher than
ever before, while methane is 130% above any previous levels.
The sea is now rising at 2mm per year and it is expected to rise 88 cm (baout one US yard) by the end of the century.
Edited by Maju
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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