QuoteReplyTopic: Katarina Velika Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 16:44
It is not the historical, but the ideal Queen that Bosnians see as their historical idol and national hero.
Richard the Lionhearted was not a great king, nor a great administrator, he was a soldier, but he is celebrated as the greatest English king due to other factors.
Katarina wasnt ''ideal'' queen, she is only remembered as being
the last quuen.If she was born during time of Stjepan Kulinic
1204-1232, she would certainly not be remembered.For Katarina, she
never cared for Bosniaks, in first place.Neither did her husband.Bosnia
was a confederation of Bosnian nobles, that in Sabor elected or tried
to elect their man as a king
In Bosnia you had Subici, who werent strong and came from todays
Croatia.They ruled for small period of time.Then you have Kulinic and
Kotromanic dynasty, and later Tomasevici
This was all supervised by Bosnian Did, who was a church figurem, but
had a significant affair and influence into Bosnian politics, all
untill mid 15 th centiry.
Katarina from Kosaca-Hranic dynasty.Original name was Hranic, or
Hranice, later turned into Kosaca.Founding father was a Sandalj Hranic
Kosaca.He ruled from his court in Kljuc, not the one in Krajina, but
Kljuc Gacko.His son, Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca, moved his capital to better
suitable Blagaj, that was at that time, biggest part in Hum, i wont say
Hercegovina.
Katarina Kosaca(Hranic) was a product of marriage between Stjepan
Tomas.Remember Bosniak nobles often married even to woman who werent
Bosniak.Matej Ninoslav had Polish bride
I did not say that she was the "ideal" in any way shape or form. She is seen as the "ideal" however. Just like Richard was never the "ideal," but is seen so.
Katarina wasnt a queen, nor was she effective ruled.She was just a wife, of unpopular king Stjepan Tomas.
Prior to Stjepan Tomas rise to power, all Bosnian rulers were either
Boghumils and Bosniaks, certainly grave of Stjepan Ostoja , Matej
Ninoslav, who Mandic tried to portray as a Catholic, with lot of flaws,
and especially Kulin Ban, who had to accept Papal sovereignity in
public.The famous Bilinoe declaration of 1203, where he had to accept
Roman missionary movements, that would come in due time, by laws of
Innocent III
In 1244, when whole Europe was Catholic and Christian, first Papal
order(Dominicans came to Bosnia.Since, at that time, ruler was Matej
Ninoslav, who was catholic, then returned to boghumils, then became
orthodox, he suited his game plan, as he came into power and stayed in
power.Regardless if he was playing Byzantines, Hungarians or even Rome
By 1293, some say 1299, Jiricek suggest 1294, when Subic Brothers took
throne of Bosnia or Rex Bosnae, catholic Subics or Subics of
Bribinje, piece of land that Popes gave them in 1220 period, when they
later became another family in middle ages Zrinjski, but thats just off
topic
From 1290 untill 1398 with Exception of King Ostoja, who was a lose
catholic, or boghumil 1398-1404, 1404-1412, all rulers were
CATHOLIC.Though all expecpted the fact, that boghumils was strong in
Bosnia and didnt persecute Bosnia
In period 1440-1463 last 23 years of Bosnia as a state
You had Turkish taking of Pavlovici Kraji(Lands of Ivanis Pavloc,
vicelord of Podrinje and Vrhbosna Sarajevo.By 1455, Turks, already
controlled Sarajevo, Foca, and lot of eastern towns.In the middle, you
had a nobles, that were rebelling against rule of Stjepan Tomas, and
his predecesors.
Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1446 took his land Humska and proclaimed it
autonomous from Bosnia by name Hercegovina(Land of Duke)Hercog -Dukes
Stjepan Tomas was incometent ruler.Last few years, he spend his money,
trying to bad-mouth nobles that cemented Bosnian faith, as they didnt
recognize Bosniak king(Radosalici, Kopcici, Kacici, Kosace, Sankovici
Even Altomanovici from Soli rebeled.Though Bosnia was a state,, this
was loose confederation of powerfull nobles of the day.Some converted
to Islam later, but thats another story.
Katarina and Stjepan tried to convert forcefully Local Bosniaks.Their
death was not done as some claim by Mehmed Fatih conquered, by Radoslav
Angelili Pribinic, who was a son of a Krusevac vicelord Ratomir.Stjepan
ran away to Kljuc and hid in womans clothers.Its shame and ironny, what
was once proud Bosnian kingdom:Stjepan Kotromanic, Tvrtko, Kulin Ban,
even drunk Ostoja 1398-1404, 1404-1412, who by the way sold all of
Bosnian coast, becase he owed money to Dubrovacka republika
I certainly respect Katarina even less, because as she said.If my children convert to Islam, i will leave all my money to Rome.
Im more into good Tvrtko, or Kulin
Weren't most Roman Catholics, rather than Bosnian Bogomils? If I recall quite a lot of them even prosecuted the Bosnian patarens ("heretics").
I've heard about this conversion of Orthodoxy by Matej Ninoslav, but I thought that was just a myth. Where did you get that info?
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Katarina wasnt ''ideal'' queen, she is only remembered as being
the last quuen.If she was born during time of Stjepan Kulinic
1204-1232, she would certainly not be remembered.For Katarina, she
never cared for Bosniaks, in first place.Neither did her husband.Bosnia
was a confederation of Bosnian nobles, that in Sabor elected or tried
to elect their man as a king
In Bosnia you had Subici, who werent strong and came from todays
Croatia.They ruled for small period of time.Then you have Kulinic and
Kotromanic dynasty, and later Tomasevici
This was all supervised by Bosnian Did, who was a church figurem, but
had a significant affair and influence into Bosnian politics, all
untill mid 15 th centiry.
Katarina from Kosaca-Hranic dynasty.Original name was Hranic, or
Hranice, later turned into Kosaca.Founding father was a Sandalj Hranic
Kosaca.He ruled from his court in Kljuc, not the one in Krajina, but
Kljuc Gacko.His son, Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca, moved his capital to better
suitable Blagaj, that was at that time, biggest part in Hum, i wont say
Hercegovina.
Katarina Kosaca(Hranic) was a product of marriage between Stjepan
Tomas.Remember Bosniak nobles often married even to woman who werent
Bosniak.Matej Ninoslav had Polish bride
Do not mention the Croatian Subics? That's a foreign dynasty, just like the Serbian Nemanjics (they ruled over norther Bosnia [Usora and Soli] and held main proper Bosnia under its protectorate).
I wouldn't call Katarina "Hranic", her father was Stephen Vukcic.
Why not call it "Hercegovina"? That's precisely the time that realm was created!
Why do you separate the Tomasevics from the Kotromanics?
There were a lot other dynasties: Crepovic, Dinjicic, Nikolic, Ljubibratic, Sankovic, Pavlovic, Vlatkovic and Zlatonosic
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Katarina wasnt a queen, nor was she effective ruled.She was just a wife, of unpopular king Stjepan Tomas.
Prior to Stjepan Tomas rise to power, all Bosnian rulers were either Boghumils and Bosniaks, certainly grave of Stjepan Ostoja , Matej Ninoslav, who Mandic tried to portray as a Catholic, with lot of flaws, and especially Kulin Ban, who had to accept Papal sovereignity in public.The famous Bilinoe declaration of 1203, where he had to accept Roman missionary movements, that would come in due time, by laws of Innocent III
In 1244, when whole Europe was Catholic and Christian, first Papal order(Dominicans came to Bosnia.Since, at that time, ruler was Matej Ninoslav, who was catholic, then returned to boghumils, then became orthodox, he suited his game plan, as he came into power and stayed in power.Regardless if he was playing Byzantines, Hungarians or even Rome
By 1293, some say 1299, Jiricek suggest 1294, when Subic Brothers took throne of Bosnia or Rex Bosnae, catholic Subics or Subics of Bribinje, piece of land that Popes gave them in 1220 period, when they later became another family in middle ages Zrinjski, but thats just off topic
From 1290 untill 1398 with Exception of King Ostoja, who was a lose catholic, or boghumil 1398-1404, 1404-1412, all rulers were CATHOLIC.Though all expecpted the fact, that boghumils was strong in Bosnia and didnt persecute Bosnia
In period 1440-1463 last 23 years of Bosnia as a state
You had Turkish taking of Pavlovici Kraji(Lands of Ivanis Pavloc, vicelord of Podrinje and Vrhbosna Sarajevo.By 1455, Turks, already controlled Sarajevo, Foca, and lot of eastern towns.In the middle, you had a nobles, that were rebelling against rule of Stjepan Tomas, and his predecesors.
Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1446 took his land Humska and proclaimed it autonomous from Bosnia by name Hercegovina(Land of Duke)Hercog -Dukes
Stjepan Tomas was incometent ruler.Last few years, he spend his money, trying to bad-mouth nobles that cemented Bosnian faith, as they didnt recognize Bosniak king(Radosalici, Kopcici, Kacici, Kosace, Sankovici
Even Altomanovici from Soli rebeled.Though Bosnia was a state,, this was loose confederation of powerfull nobles of the day.Some converted to Islam later, but thats another story.
Katarina and Stjepan tried to convert forcefully Local Bosniaks.Their death was not done as some claim by Mehmed Fatih conquered, by Radoslav Angelili Pribinic, who was a son of a Krusevac vicelord Ratomir.Stjepan ran away to Kljuc and hid in womans clothers.Its shame and ironny, what was once proud Bosnian kingdom:Stjepan Kotromanic, Tvrtko, Kulin Ban, even drunk Ostoja 1398-1404, 1404-1412, who by the way sold all of Bosnian coast, becase he owed money to Dubrovacka republika
I certainly respect Katarina even less, because as she said.If my children convert to Islam, i will leave all my money to Rome.
Im more into good Tvrtko, or Kulin
Weren't most Roman Catholics, rather than Bosnian Bogomils? If I recall quite a lot of them even prosecuted the Bosnian patarens ("heretics").
I've heard about this conversion of Orthodoxy by Matej Ninoslav, but I thought that was just a myth. Where did you get that info?
Recent studies show that the prevalence was of Bosnian Catholic, and Bosnian independent(breakaway Catholic) churches. With Ortodoxy in Hercegovina, and a few families in Bosnia proper. Many Bosnians were Roman Catholic, does not make them Croats though, it would in this day and age not back then when nationality depended on less rigid and discrimantory standards.
Katarina wasnt a queen, nor was she effective ruled.She was just a wife, of unpopular king Stjepan Tomas.
Prior to Stjepan Tomas rise to power, all Bosnian rulers were either Boghumils and Bosniaks, certainly grave of Stjepan Ostoja , Matej Ninoslav, who Mandic tried to portray as a Catholic, with lot of flaws, and especially Kulin Ban, who had to accept Papal sovereignity in public.The famous Bilinoe declaration of 1203, where he had to accept Roman missionary movements, that would come in due time, by laws of Innocent III
In 1244, when whole Europe was Catholic and Christian, first Papal order(Dominicans came to Bosnia.Since, at that time, ruler was Matej Ninoslav, who was catholic, then returned to boghumils, then became orthodox, he suited his game plan, as he came into power and stayed in power.Regardless if he was playing Byzantines, Hungarians or even Rome
By 1293, some say 1299, Jiricek suggest 1294, when Subic Brothers took throne of Bosnia or Rex Bosnae, catholic Subics or Subics of Bribinje, piece of land that Popes gave them in 1220 period, when they later became another family in middle ages Zrinjski, but thats just off topic
From 1290 untill 1398 with Exception of King Ostoja, who was a lose catholic, or boghumil 1398-1404, 1404-1412, all rulers were CATHOLIC.Though all expecpted the fact, that boghumils was strong in Bosnia and didnt persecute Bosnia
In period 1440-1463 last 23 years of Bosnia as a state
You had Turkish taking of Pavlovici Kraji(Lands of Ivanis Pavloc, vicelord of Podrinje and Vrhbosna Sarajevo.By 1455, Turks, already controlled Sarajevo, Foca, and lot of eastern towns.In the middle, you had a nobles, that were rebelling against rule of Stjepan Tomas, and his predecesors.
Stjepan Vukcic Kosaca in 1446 took his land Humska and proclaimed it autonomous from Bosnia by name Hercegovina(Land of Duke)Hercog -Dukes
Stjepan Tomas was incometent ruler.Last few years, he spend his money, trying to bad-mouth nobles that cemented Bosnian faith, as they didnt recognize Bosniak king(Radosalici, Kopcici, Kacici, Kosace, Sankovici
Even Altomanovici from Soli rebeled.Though Bosnia was a state,, this was loose confederation of powerfull nobles of the day.Some converted to Islam later, but thats another story.
Katarina and Stjepan tried to convert forcefully Local Bosniaks.Their death was not done as some claim by Mehmed Fatih conquered, by Radoslav Angelili Pribinic, who was a son of a Krusevac vicelord Ratomir.Stjepan ran away to Kljuc and hid in womans clothers.Its shame and ironny, what was once proud Bosnian kingdom:Stjepan Kotromanic, Tvrtko, Kulin Ban, even drunk Ostoja 1398-1404, 1404-1412, who by the way sold all of Bosnian coast, becase he owed money to Dubrovacka republika
I certainly respect Katarina even less, because as she said.If my children convert to Islam, i will leave all my money to Rome.
Im more into good Tvrtko, or Kulin
Weren't most Roman Catholics, rather than Bosnian Bogomils? If I recall quite a lot of them even prosecuted the Bosnian patarens ("heretics").
I've heard about this conversion of Orthodoxy by Matej Ninoslav, but I thought that was just a myth. Where did you get that info?
Recent studies show that the prevalence was of Bosnian Catholic, and Bosnian independent(breakaway Catholic) churches. With Ortodoxy in Hercegovina, and a few families in Bosnia proper. Many Bosnians were Roman Catholic, does not make them Croats though, it would in this day and age not back then when nationality depended on less rigid and discrimantory standards.
I was talking 'bout Monarchs.
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
Bogumils were part catholics, but they had some practice, which popes considered heretic
One of those was a mass in Bosnian and not Latin, language of the
church.Then, more powerfull influence of Did, who was not just church
figure but also sometimes a politician.Third, Bosnian priest unlike
Romans did had wifes, in times, when Roman priests had to serve in some
wild outpost in some backward village
If i was per say Catholic in 1400, and did all of those things in Bosnia
Sankovici-Komska Zupa(Present day Kalinovik and Konjic
Kopcici-Bugojno-,Donji Vakuf,Gornji Vakuf, then non-existant place, where Bugojno stands today
Kacic, part in Visoka Krajina, part in central Bosnia
Vukovic and not Vlatkovic, there were no Vlatkovici
Radosalici vicelords of Prozor, lower Neretva
Nikolici is new last name, probably recent date
Draskovici are Croats, that became Serbs
In Hercegovina you had Ljubovici and Obradovice.Obradovici were Vlachs, that in one village became Muslim(Stolac Obradovici)
In Neum were Croats, and in Serbia orthodox
Sankovici-Komska Zupa(Present day Kalinovik and Konjic
Kopcici-Bugojno-,Donji Vakuf,Gornji Vakuf, then non-existant place, where Bugojno stands today
Kacic, part in Visoka Krajina, part in central Bosnia
Vukovic and not Vlatkovic, there were no Vlatkovici
Radosalici vicelords of Prozor, lower Neretva
Nikolici is new last name, probably recent date
Draskovici are Croats, that became Serbs
In Hercegovina you had Ljubovici and Obradovice.Obradovici were Vlachs, that in one village became Muslim(Stolac Obradovici)
In Neum were Croats, and in Serbia orthodox
CREPOVIC The founder of the Crepovic dynasty was Saint Abbasside (Herzegovinian) Chamberlain Pribislav Vukotic, who was also be-knighted by Stephen Vukcic Kosaca. The Crepovics became Knights of the Dragon Order, masterful traders and ruled over Foca.
DINJICIC They were a minor 14th-15th century noble family that ruled over areas in the Drina.
LJUBIBRATIC They were a notable 14th-15th century nobility that ruled Trebinje and the Canalites.
Yes, VLATKOVIC, the 14th-15th century Lords of Neretva.
NIKOLIC, were the descendants of the Nemanjics (successors of Great Prince Miroslav that ruled the Hum). They ruled Popovo polje in 14th-15th century. Croats that became Serbs what? What are you talking about??
"I know not with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
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