!!!!!

 

No it wasn't, infact the exact opposite is true, and I wouldn't be using wiki, a site that anyone with fingers could edit, as a source of valuable information. I suggest actually reading Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaimonians 2.13  and Symposium (The Banquet) 8.70 which state clearly how wrong your assumptions above are.

 

I agree with you 100%, and my quote was from Ptolemy l of Egypt.

 

 

There is not any quote or reference  from any ancient writer regarding the supposing Alexander's homosexuality. This is myth that built in the last quorter of the 20th cent from the modern writers.

 

Sinora you are totally wrong in believing that  bisexuality was common in ancient Greece and your "history professor" is basing most of that BS info on modern interpetations views put forth by 19th century "scholars", who they themselves were openly Gay/Bisexual, and Dover, and anyone who is familiar with Dover will tell you his info is tented with bias. 

 

Akiras, to answer your question, no there isn't any ancient text which say this to be true.  What people seem to fail in understanding is the concepts of "eros" in ancient Greece is not what some modern individuals think it to be.  The following is a post which was posted by another poster in a message board and the person who wrote it is very well informed and knowledgable in ancient Greek society:

 

"Philip, I don�t get what exactly your question means (I guess it is due to my poor command of the English language, even though my good friend Apro tells you otherwise ). But if you ask me if the Spartan law allowed homosexuality or encouraged it in any way, my answer is �NO�, plainly because there isn�t evidence for that, on the contrary various ancient Greek sources/writers (who are not Spartan themselves) tell us exactly the opposite. For instance:

Aristotle the great philosopher, writes that the Spartans are people who don�t appreciate homosexuality and don�t practise sodomy, as opposed to some other people.
Xenophon, the famous Athenian historian and philosopher, in his historical piece of writing called �Lacedaemonians� Politeia/Country�, reports that Lycurgus (the great Spartan legislator and founder of Sparta�s law) praised as the most worthwhile form of education the admiration of a virtuous man for the soul of a child and his endeavor to shape that child/boy into a good fellow-warrior, so that he could live well in his companionship. Conversely, Lycurgus considered any kind of carnal passion for the body of a child/boy to be a great source of shame.
Plutarch the biographer also confirms the aforementioned about Lycurgus and the Spartan law.
Given also that the Spartans were people who deeply respected their law (it was obeying their law that they fell to the last man fighting bravely a lost battle at Thermopylae :-)), it is quite unlikely that homosexuality/pederasty was the common practice of the Spartan society, as it is claimed today by some non-Greek scholars who misinterpret the institution of �pederasty� in ancient Sparta. Is it the problem that they are not Greek themselves, or that the present-day thought is so mistrustful of customs which brought men so close to their fellow men in a very ancient, so distant society?

As an aside here, let me mention what was the exact meaning of the ancient Greek word �eros� and its derivatives, so that you be able to understand more easily what the institution of �pederasty� was in ancient Sparta:

In ancient Greece, Eros, i.e. the little winged God who was Aphrodite�s son, was the incarnation of love. According to the ancient Greeks (as in the famous work by Plato, the Symposium, it is reported) there are two kinds of love: the first has to do with the satisfying of our fleshy desires (sex), while the second aims at the good of the person that someone loves, that is at his or her moral perfection. So the ancient word �eros� has a double meaning, and when I write it without quotation marks (eros) it will denote the first kind of love whose purpose is the sensual or carnal pleasure, but when I write it with quotation marks (�eros�) it will denote the second kind of �love� mentioned above. That kind of �eros� is the one about which I�ll talk from now on.

�Eros� is connected with the ancient Greek verb �ero�, which means neither �I love� nor �I�m in love�, but �I long for, I yearn�, i.e. �I�m continually seeking through my soul for whatever I�m lacking�. A psychic need was contained within this verb, which sought a deeper satisfaction. When I �ero� somebody/something, I am an �erastes� of him/it, which means I�m a �lover� of him/it but not in the sense of the �sexual partner� but in the sense of the �admirer/worshipper�. So someone can be an �erastes�/�lover� of wisdom and valor for instance, which means that he never gives up searching for these virtues because he�s an admirer of them and he longs for them. Another paradigm is that of the great philosopher Socrates, who presented himself as an �erastes�/�lover� to his students, because through the cultivation of their souls he aimed at their moral perfection, i.e. at the beauty of their souls. And �eros� always turns towards the beautiful, as the flower turns towards the sun (i.e. the human soul always longs for the beautiful). From the aforementioned it is obvious that there could be �eros� between two individuals without any bodily contact. This is also known as �Platonic eros�, and sensual or carnal pleasure is not its purpose because it can never fulfill us as individuals, and because we gain it by exploiting in some way the beloved person (�eromenos� in ancient Greek), who is thus diminished in this manner.

Sorry if all the aforementioned sound scholarly and boring, but �pederasty� in ancient Sparta is directly related to the concept of �eros� which I�ve just analyzed. As I mentioned above, �eros� which has nothing to do with fleshy desires and carnal pleasure always turns to the beautiful (i.e. the human soul always longs for the beautiful). The ancient Greeks have always been �erastes�/�lovers� of measure/moderation, harmony and beauty. The beautiful was worthy of every form of admiration, respect and honor by the ancient Greeks. For instance, the beautiful, healthy and harmonious human body (as the ancient Greeks immortalized it in statues and sculptures of unique beauty), whether it belong to a man or a woman, was an object of admiration. And since the beauty is first and foremost a characteristic of youth, let us examine the so-called �pederasty� in ancient Sparta:

While the word pederasty in all languages means an erotic perversion, in classical antiquity it was also used in the sense of a pedagogical institution, based on the pure and disinterested �love� of boys, i.e. on the concept of �eros� as I analyzed it above, and not on homosexual relations with them. That pedagogical institution was used not only in ancient Sparta but also in ancient (classical) Athens to some extent, only that in Sparta it was officially enacted by the city-state. From now on when I speak of that ancient pedagogical institution I�ll use the word with quotation marks (�pederasty�), in contradistinction to pederasty without quotation marks, which will mean what we all mean today by this word (i.e. a man who has sex with a boy).

Back to ancient Sparta, the so-called �pederasty� was (at least from the 6th to the 4th century BC) a part of the obligatory education of all the little male Spartans, which was called �agogH�. The suitable age for adolescents to receive this education (i.e. the �pederasty�) was thought to be from twelve to eighteen. At that age they could be assigned to an adult man as their companion, who in agreement with the customs had to be over twenty years of age. So it was very good fortune and an honor for a boy when a citizen who enjoyed general public esteem, took him under his wing. Conversely, it was shameful for a boy if he did not have the honor of such a friendship. This relationship was also marked by the consent of the boy�s father, who felt proud when a worthy man chose his son. This custom/institution of �pederasty� had its roots in Doric practices (the Spartans belonged to the Doric tribe). The Dorians, just like the Spartans, were warlike people, and they introduced the custom of �pederasty� because the men lived in army camps and by the very nature of things the older men became the teachers and guides of the future warriors/soldiers.

In such a �pederastic� relationship, the adult man was the �erastes�/�lover� of the boy (�paedikon�), a �lover� not in the sense of the �sexual partner� but in the sense I have analyzed it above. That is, the �lover� felt admiration for a beautiful young boy who selected to teach/train, and that admiration for the beauty of the boy (both, the beauty of its body and its soul) was the main stimulus for the man to proceed with the selection of that boy whose inner world he wished to mould so as to make him into the proper/good (�kalos kagathos�) man. The �lover� had with the boy ceaseless discussions, which dealt with a great range of subjects. Through these discussions the man tried to inspire the youth with moral values, such as obedience to the laws, the ways of proper behavior, nobility and ethos, so that he would become a courageous and moral man. The adolescent in his turn had to respect his mentor, and deeply esteem him and to show by his behavior how obliged he was to him.

Such a �pederastic� relationship was a �love� on a psychic level, a spiritual bond, �eros� without the accompaniment of Aphrodite as the ancient Greeks said, i.e. �eros� without any bodily love/sexual intercourse. In fact, as I have already mentioned, Lycurgus and the Spartan law forbade pederasty as we mean it today (i.e. the pederasty which includes sexual intercourse), considered it to be a punishable offense and the courts rigorously persecuted it. It was strictly forbidden for the adolescent to assume any posture that facilitated contact with the backside or introduction of the male member into any part of his body, and play in this way the role of a woman (i.e. the role of a carnal object). That would be humiliating, since women were reckoned to be second class/inferior than men beings back then. The young boy was destined to become a citizen, and as a future citizen should not be dishonored in that way. It would be debasing for the adolescent to find himself in the passive position of humiliation and submission. Just how disgraceful they considered this to be is shown for instance by a representation on a ancient red-figured vase. This representation depicts a Persian in a posture which is declared by the inscription underneath: �I am Evrymedon. I have submitted myself�. Behind him there can be seen an arriving Greek, gesturing with his genitals in such a way there can be no doubt as to his intentions. This vase, painted after the victory of the Greeks against the Persians, triumphantly proclaims (just like some people would do today when their team wins at football/basketball ): �We scre*wed the Persians!�

From the aforementioned it is obvious that �as opposed to what many people think today� �pederasty� in ancient Sparta was not male homosexuality, but the primary method of raising the male youth. It was considered to be an important pedagogical factor/institution, which, examined from a moral point of view, had its own special character that was maintained on an aesthetic, religious and educational basis. Its purpose was the maintenance of institutions, and the elevation of social and personal virtue with the assistance of the city-state. This ethic that was built up around �eros� in relationships between men with virtue as their aim, was the source of great valor and the secret of male friendship. As difficult as it is to understand today, this �love� had nothing humiliating, corrupting or effeminate about it. It was the force that gave rise to heroism and directed valor to remarkable heights. Because �eros� lends a divine spirit and makes men braver, and furthermore it is the best way to maintain the line of battle. And indeed, the salvation and victory of the warriors lay in their friendship which formed the line. A brilliant proof of this assertion concerning this particular form of male behavior was the so-called Sacred Band of Thebes. They were called �the company of �lovers��, many times sarcastically by those who were envious of the rise of Thebes to power. Just like the Spartans, they were reckoned to be great warriors/soldiers, and they showed at the battlefield the great valor and self-sacrifice of the Spartans: in the battle of Chaeroneia, for instance, the soldiers of the Sacred Band of Thebes fell to the last man (just like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae) fighting bravely against the Macedonian king Philip B�. Deeply moved by their great valor, the victorious king Philip said: �A curse on those who have treacherously hinted that such men could have done or accepted anything vile�

Since it is not my intention to show any form of bias, let me also add that (even though there isn�t sufficient evidence for that) we can�t exclude the possibility that there were indeed some homosexual relationships between men in ancient Sparta. Sexual deviations have existed in all places and in all eras, and ancient Sparta/Greece shouldn�t be excluded from this rule. Furthermore, let me also add that anything that occurs between two people that is completely consensual is a personal matter - and respected. But if such male homosexual relationships existed indeed, they constituted by no means the rule, and they didn�t characterize the ancient Spartan society, as I have already argued. In other words, ancient Sparta (/Greece) is by no means the cradle of perversion, as many people tend to reckon her today! "

~mvarda

 

Alexander was "bi" and the Easter Bunny is Pink and comes down a chimney.   And while you are believing that I also have a bridge to sell you in Brookline and a Moon ride to outerspace.

 

While I'm quoting mvarda's great posts, here is another interesting one

What supposed to do with the thread if your provocated quote is truth  ?