Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Return of Tengriism?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
Suevari View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

Spammer

Joined: 04-Mar-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Suevari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Return of Tengriism?
    Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 13:39
HIGH-RANKING KYRGYZ OFFICIAL PROPOSES NEW NATIONAL IDEOLOGY


Following the removal of Kyrgyzstan's long-time President Askar Akayev on March 24, 2005, the new government led by Kurmanbek Bakiyev terminated some of Akayev's efforts to build an official state ideology. But aside from anti-corruption slogans aimed at remnants of Akayev's regime, the Bakiyev government has not generated any new political concepts. A number of Kyrgyz politicians are actively pushing Tengrism, an ancient Turkic religion dating to the fourth century BC, to fill the ideological void. Dastan Sarygulov, currently secretary of state and formerly chair of the Kyrgyz state gold mining company, has established "Tengir Ordo," a civic group that seeks to promote the values and traditions of the Tengrian period in modern Kyrgyzstan.

Independent Kyrgyzstan has not been able to promulgate a state ideology, although the Akayev regime made many failed attempts. Beginning in 1991 Akayev had to confront the twin pressures of growing Kyrgyz nationalism and increasing nervousness among the ethnic Russian population about their status in post-Soviet Kyrgyzstan. The former president tried a variety of national projects ranging from the ethnic-centered "Manas-1000" in the mid-1990s, to more civic-based ideas such as "Kyrgyzstan is Our Home" in the late 1990s. In 2002 Akayev's government celebrated the 2,200-year history of the Kyrgyz nation.

In the mid-1990s the Manas ideology, based on the world's longest epic narrative, was placed at the center of efforts to advance a national consciousness. Seven maxims mentioned in the epic and modified by a government committee on cultural and educational affairs were included into the official state ideology. A competing ideology, the civic-oriented "Kyrgyzstan is Our Home" campaign, was primarily directed at the Russian-speaking and ethnic Uzbek minorities. While the civic formula gained popularity, attempts to incorporate all ethnic groups into a common idea about the Kyrgyz state inevitably exacerbated neo-nationalist political movements in the country.

Given his high position in the government, and his credentials as a member of the economic elite in Kyrgyzstan, Sarygulov potentially has sufficient resources to propagate his views. Tengrism, according to Sarygulov, is the genuine religion of the Kyrgyz and helped the people to survive throughout the centuries. In his interpretation, Tengrism promotes an anti-capitalist lifestyle and is a natural response to the problems caused by globalization: "The time has come to get rid of external influences to lift barriers, the inferiority complex, and centuries of humiliation" (Slovo Kyrgyzstana, July 22).

Kyrgyzstan's communists have embraced Sarygulov's ideas. Anarbek Usupbayev, secretary of the Kyrgyz Communist Party, sees resilient similarities between values of Tengrism and communism, such as social justice and equality (Bely parohod, May 31; Moya stolitsa novosti, November 9). Usupbayev also tried to draw parallels between Tengrism and the Manas epic, which he referrers to as the "Kyrgyz Bible." Supporters of Tengrism do not deny that as a national doctrine, it will represent mainly pan-Turkic and even pan-Kyrgyz views.

Some Kyrgyz experts see Tengrism as an idea developed to resist Islamic feelings among the Kyrgyz public (Obshchestvenny reiting, November 24). Anara Abdynasyrova, a philosophy scholar, argues that Tengrism is unable to coexist peacefully with Islam, the dominant religion in Kyrgyzstan. Other scholars warn that a clash between Sarygulov's doctrine and Islamic clergy in Kyrgyzstan is inevitable if Tengrism is further popularized. Kyrgyz Prime Minister Felix Kulov commented, "Today there are many different prophets' who invent new religions. For instance, Tengrism. Yes, it is interesting, but this is history and has nothing in common with modern life" (Megapolis.kg, December 5).

According to some observers, since Islam in Kyrgyzstan is generally moderate and the percentage of Muslims is low compared with neighboring Central Asian states, the principles of Tengrism might gain some popularity. In the recent years the term has gradually entered everyday use: it is discussed in the mass media and Internet forums. However, given the number of failed attempts at formulating a state ideology, the Kyrgyz public tends to be skeptical of any new ideology project.

Similar efforts to revive Tengrism ideals are evident in Kazakhstan and some parts of Russia. In February 2005 the French Institute for Central Asian Studies sponsored a regional colloquium in Almaty on the topic, "Tengrism as a New Factor in the Construction of Identity" (Centrasia.ru, February 26).

Although Sarygulov has few supporters of his national doctrine proposal, today he is the only self-declared ideologist in Kyrgyzstan. Akayev tended to maneuver between various projects on Kyrgyz state ideology, but most of his initiatives were short-lived. The lessons learned from Akayev's search for a unifying state ideology demonstrate that with large Russian and Uzbek minorities living on the territory of Kyrgyzstan and hundreds of thousands of Kyrgyz labor migrants residing in Russia and Kazakhstan, pursuing any policy that discriminates against ethnic minorities is risky for the Kyrgyz government.


SOURCE: http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id= 407&issue_id=3548&article_id=2370554

An interesting article, but we've heard no more since the fall of Akayev.  Kyrgyzstan has the advantage of having a weak social attachment to Islam and Turkey has the advantage of being an ever-increasing pluralistic society - who knows, maybe It'll take of one day.

Any views?
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 05:10

We have already had a topic on this.

 

Why follow Tanrism just because our ancestors followed it?

You might as well sell your computer and buy a hourse. Live as a nomad.

As the title says "National Ideology", when infact they are installing a religion to boost their pre-Islamic culture of the Kyrgz. This will never work, because people wont trully belive in this religion. I find it hard to belive that people in Kirgizistan will start to look at the sky and shout Tanri.

Back to Top
Suevari View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

Spammer

Joined: 04-Mar-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Suevari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 05:41
Well that's your opinion then - Many Turks look to the skies and shout Allah, so why not Tanri? Not too many in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan shout Allah though, as their social link to Islam is far weaker than in our Turkey.

The idea of religion is to follow what you want, OSMANLI, not what others want you to, so you saying "why follow Tengriism just because our anscestors followed it" is totally baseless - from a religious perspective.

Besides, it is being proposed as part of a new national ideology, why you think it is a 'conspiracy to install a new religion' is probably because you're paranoid.

From a personal point of view, I don't enjoy following a religion adopted and partly forced on us by the Arabs, in fact I lament the day we made cultural contact with them (battle of Talas).  But because Turkey and the Turkic world is become increasingly pluralistic and people are exploring their roots further, the growth of Tengriism once again is far more likely than even 5 years ago - it is already attracting groups in Turkey especially after the Altay Shaman Nadya Yuguseva visited the black sea coast some years back.
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 08:26

"Well that's your opinion then - Many Turks look to the skies and shout Allah, so why not Tanri? Not too many in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan shout Allah though, as their social link to Islam is far weaker than in our Turkey."

That is not an Islamic practice, nor have i seen any Turk do so. You sure the person you claim to have seen was sane?

"why follow Tengriism just because our anscestors followed it" is totally baseless - from a religious perspective.

How? the whole reason people like you are following it is as you clearly admited "as part of a new national ideology". This is clearly a religion that is being stimulated by Turanists in order to have more in common with each other.

Even the article mentions "Supporters of Tengrism do not deny that as a national doctrine, it will represent mainly pan-Turkic and even pan-Kyrgyz views. "

"From a personal point of view, I don't enjoy following a religion adopted and partly forced on us by the Arabs, in fact I lament the day we made cultural contact with them (battle of Talas).  But because Turkey and the Turkic world is become increasingly pluralistic and people are exploring their roots further, the growth of Tengriism once again is far more likely than even 5 years ago - it is already attracting groups in Turkey especially after the Altay Shaman Nadya Yuguseva visited the black sea coast some years back."

Actually Islam is making a come back through out the whole Muslim world: Fact. Are we to believe that Arabs are forcing it upon us in modern day Turkey.

Have you read the whole of your article:

"Some Kyrgyz experts see Tengrism as an idea developed to resist Islamic feelings among the Kyrgyz public "

I think the problem with Turnists/Ulkucu etc is that you seem to think that a religion is part of a national identity. Islam-Arab, Tanrism-Turkic/Mongolian, Christian-West etc. Well its not, its a personal belief that NO ONE can force upon an individual. Your born with an ethinicty, not a belief

Back to Top
Suevari View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

Spammer

Joined: 04-Mar-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Suevari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 17:53
You need to un-complicate your religious mind.  I think you over-politiscise religion which in my point of view, is it's very downfall.

I believe what I want, quit with the reactionary defensiveness which you try to masquarade as innocent discussion.  Believe what you want, I'm not 'forcing' anything on you at all.

Good night to you. (Btw, watch Hacivat ve Karagoz neden Olduruldu)


Edited by Suevari
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 06:40
Tengrism? I like it.

What did Arab believe in before Mohammed? They should maybe re-explore their past too... after all, beliefs aren't but opinions.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Halevi View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 584
  Quote Halevi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 07:28
Originally posted by OSMANLI

I think the problem with Turnists/Ulkucu etc is that you seem to think that a religion is part of a national identity. Islam-Arab, Tanrism-Turkic/Mongolian, Christian-West etc. Well its not, its a personal belief that NO ONE can force upon an individual. Your born with an ethinicty, not a belief



I wish more people realized that this applies to us ethnic Jews, too!
"Your country ain't your blood. Remember that." -Santino Corelone
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 10:23
I do: I still have to known of a Jew that is not a Zionist politician that is religious... at least in the traditional Judaist sense. Most famous Jews are either atheists or have very personal approaches to religion. 

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869
  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 10:55
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Your born with an ethinicty, not a belief


You think so? Maybe you wouldn't join Islam, if you were not born into a Muslim family? How about that?
Back to Top
Turkoglu View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jan-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 176
  Quote Turkoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 15:41
yes but with your life experiences and personal choices you can change
your religion but not your ethnicity.

Back to Top
Suevari View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

Spammer

Joined: 04-Mar-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Suevari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 17:06
Religion in Turkey is theoretically free, but say you're a Tengrist and you could well be disowned by your wider family and frowned upon by society... Many people accept Islam because they have to or exploration into other faiths is extremely limited btoh in resources and by social pressure.
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 14:56
Originally posted by barish

Originally posted by OSMANLI

Your born with an ethinicty, not a belief


You think so? Maybe you wouldn't join Islam, if you were not born into a Muslim family? How about that?

I know many converts to Islam. How would your arguement fit to them?

Also i have researched other religions, infact i even own a Bible (KJV) so i have researched other religions and athiest point of views, which i find personally to be wrong. Thus my being Muslim is not through ignorance of the world beliefs.

What i found really silly however is people joining a religious belief to fit a nationalistic/fasist criteria. Thus these Tanrist are in reality NOT Tanrisist since they do not trully belive in its beliefs and doctrines rather are imitating the outward actions of Tanrism to add to their culture.

"Many people accept Islam because they have to "

And yet the growing number of religious Muslims in Turkey is growing, more and more of our women are freely choosing to wear a head scarf.



Edited by OSMANLI
Back to Top
Suevari View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

Spammer

Joined: 04-Mar-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Suevari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 15:23
Also i have researched other religions, infact i even own a Bible (KJV) so i have researched other religions and athiest point of views, which i find personally to be wrong. Thus my being Muslim is not through ignorance of the world beliefs.


One mans research is anothers unsatisfactory and weighted prodding of the unfamiliar.  Besides, we only have your word for that, a very useful word for you i might add cause it's a jolly good trump card.
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 07:19

Originally posted by Suevari

Also i have researched other religions, infact i even own a Bible (KJV) so i have researched other religions and athiest point of views, which i find personally to be wrong. Thus my being Muslim is not through ignorance of the world beliefs.


One mans research is anothers unsatisfactory and weighted prodding of the unfamiliar.  Besides, we only have your word for that, a very useful word for you i might add cause it's a jolly good trump card.

S.John 14:15-16

If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray to the Father and He shall give you another comforter that he may abide with you forever.

Muslim theologians have said that another comforter is Muhammad (pbuh) and abide with you forever, means the laws (Sharia) and the Qur`an which was revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) and will never change.

S.John 15:26-27

But when the comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And he also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

In this verse the comforter is the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and were it reads, he shall testify of me it means that the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will tell people about Jesus which he did.

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith,I am not learned ." Isaiah 29:12

This goes hand-in-hand when the Angel Jibrail said "iqra" meaning read. Our Prophet (SAW) replied: "Maa anaa biqaa ri ii" which translates to "I am not learned "

Considering there was no Arabic Bible in the 6th century not possible that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would know this.

This is also goes well with the Qur'an:

" He does not speak (aught), of (his own) desire, it is no less than inspiration sent down to him, he was taught by one mighty in power"53:3-5



Edited by OSMANLI
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 17:59
Originally posted by OSMANLI

Originally posted by barish

Originally posted by OSMANLI

Your born with an ethinicty, not a belief


You think so? Maybe you wouldn't join Islam, if you were not born into a Muslim family? How about that?

I know many converts to Islam. How would your arguement fit to them?



I hope they are more real than your crypto-Muslims

Anyhow, I know more converst to atheism than you converts to Islam. And Atheists have no missions nor promise any kind of salvation: only honesty.


And yet the growing number of religious Muslims in Turkey is growing, more and more of our women are freely choosing to wear a head scarf.



Freely?

Let me be skeptic. I read about how in Iraq and Palestine, since the Islamists have won the elections, women are pressed hard (when not physically attacked) to wear the scarf of shame.

Let's not be naive.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Maju View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar

Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2006 at 18:04
Originally posted by OSMANLI

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith,I am not learned ." Isaiah 29:12

This goes hand-in-hand when the Angel Jibrail said "iqra" meaning read. Our Prophet (SAW) replied: "Maa anaa biqaa ri ii" which translates to "I am not learned "

Considering there was no Arabic Bible in the 6th century not possible that the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) would know this.



Are you kidding, Osmanli? Mohammed lived with Jews and made alliances and wars with them. He also had relation with Christians. He or the ones that recorded his preachings later on could perfectly have known of that passage.

And this is not just a possibility but something that is very likely. After all, Islam is an offshot of Judaism and Christianism - a very original one, sure,  but an offshot anyhow.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
Back to Top
Suevari View Drop Down
Knight
Knight

Spammer

Joined: 04-Mar-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote Suevari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 14:42
Originally posted by Maju

Tengrism? I like it.

What did Arab believe in before Mohammed? They should maybe re-explore their past too... after all, beliefs aren't but opinions.


Arabs had their own local beliefs before Mohammed "wrote down what God told him to".  I always think the prasing (but not down right blind devotion to) things like the Sun, water etc are FAR more logical that just accepting what some guy like Mohammed or Jesus tell us and say "God told them".  Just logic really, the Sun and Water give life.  A holy book doesn't.

If Most Christians delve into their pre-Christian era they too will find multi-deitic belief systems similar to that of the old Turks, Shamanism in general and Tengriism in particular.  But they beliefs were still focused on Gods rather than natural things.
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 15:17

Well If I wont believe Muhammed(SAV), I am sure I will not care what nationalist would say too.

I will not change my religion because of my nation.

 

Back to Top
barbar View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
retired AE Moderator

Joined: 10-Aug-2005
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 22:35

 

I think it can be only a revival of an old culture, rather than a religion.  We need to find answer to all of our questions about the universe, human, and life.  Islam can give reasonable and decisive answers to all of these questions, while others religions can't do to some extent.  That's why it's the fastest growing religion in the world. One close friend of mine, who is Australian, who studies Islamic history,  has newly converted to Islam. Allah knows best, I don't think he has some other purposes.

As a guy, under an atheist education, even to some brainwashing level, I'm thankful for Allah for helping me to find the right path. There are a lot a lot of people around like me.

 

 

Either make a history or become a history.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2006 at 09:34
TENGRISM is official BULGARIAN religion untill 893 when the bulgarian Khan Boris turned in to christian.TANGRA is bulgarian god when bulgarian tribes lived in Caspian region in Old Great Bulgaria and before that time.There are still bulgarians in Danube Bulgaria and Volga Bulgaria(Republic of Tatarstan) who are tengrists.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.086 seconds.