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hugoestr
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Topic: American Tribunate: the people curbing the elites Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 06:20 |
Political scientist John McCormick uses Machiavelli's analysis of Roman Tribune of plebeians for the purpose of curbing the power of the elites in the U.S.
McCormick himself understands that this is not going to happen, but please consider the idea.
But McCormick has a more radically Machiavellian idea. He proposes amending the Constitution to create America's own Tribunate Assembly. (Yes, he realizes this is not going to happen anytime soon.)
McCormick's Tribunate would consist of 51 private citizens (more or less a random number), selected by lottery (no campaign expenses!) from among those whose household net worth falls below $345,000, thereby excluding the wealthiest 10 percent of Americans. In his thought experiment, the plebeians, during one-year terms, would discuss the business of government five days a week and would be empowered to veto one Supreme Court decision, one act of congressional legislation, and one executive order each year. They could also call one nationwide referendum on any issue they chose, and initiate impeachment proceedings. |
Hook! Machiavelli's solution against corruption
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Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 07:53 |
selecting people by lot is not as ridiculous as it sounds. In pre-modern ages (Athens, Venice) it was widely used, and even considered more democratic than voting. After all, lot gives everybody an equal chance, whereas with voting you'll always have people who have a bigger chance than others to get elected.
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Sock Puppet
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Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 04:44 |
Originally posted by hugoestr
Political scientist John McCormick uses Machiavelli's analysis of Roman Tribune of plebeians for the purpose of curbing the power of the elites in the U.S.
McCormick himself understands that this is not going to happen, but please consider the idea.
But McCormick has a more radically Machiavellian idea. He proposes amending the Constitution to create America's own Tribunate Assembly. (Yes, he realizes this is not going to happen anytime soon.)
McCormick's Tribunate would consist of 51 private citizens (more or less a random number), selected by lottery (no campaign expenses!) from among those whose household net worth falls below $345,000, thereby excluding the wealthiest 10 percent of Americans. In his thought experiment, the plebeians, during one-year terms, would discuss the business of government five days a week and would be empowered to veto one Supreme Court decision, one act of congressional legislation, and one executive order each year. They could also call one nationwide referendum on any issue they chose, and initiate impeachment proceedings. |
Hook! Machiavelli's solution against corruption |
Why hey, we can start collecting the books for burning now, hang the nooses from the street lamps in preparation and choose our next vacations based upon where we don't thing the nuclear fallout will have gotten to yet!
And that's presuming we don't get a majority of southerners in the 51.
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When in Rome do as the Romans do, is not good advice when visiting an Italian public toilet.
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hugoestr
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Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 10:12 |
What are you talking about?
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Spartakus
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Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 13:10 |
I must admit that the purpose of this thought experiment,makes it positive and puts to the fore the problems of parliamentary democracy in countries with huge populations,in this case the USA with it's 300.000.000 people.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Sock Puppet
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Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 04:06 |
Originally posted by hugoestr
What are you talking about? |
Year one - Nationwide referrendums called. Bring back public execution, abolishing abortion, evolutionary theory banned in schools, pedo suspects imprisoned without trial and mandatory monthly drugs tests for all at work.
You hand the American public power and they'll make Hitler look like Nader.
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When in Rome do as the Romans do, is not good advice when visiting an Italian public toilet.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 03:23 |
I agree with the above to some extent. First of all, I hate democracy in any form, and this form is just as bad as any other. The currect elite are so grossly corrupt, but that should not mean we embrace populism. To regulate an elite (elites usually are people who embrace reality and thus got far and not ideological nuts-unless of course they are elected elites) all you need is strong enforcement of seperation of powers and oversight and a seperation of government and business like the one that seperates government from religion.
No one is less fit to govern than the masses, and no one more dangerous. Even if not elected, all the scariest and most vile of histories regimes have their roots in populism. And plebes on their own of a random selection-well let me tell you, after serving on a jury I can tell you random losts are a good way to collect random idiots.
I believe in meritocracy and nothing else, random lots are the most antithetical system to that I could think of.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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King John
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Posted: 28-Dec-2006 at 21:25 |
I see the merit in both your arguments however I disagree to some extent. I think the masses are more apt to do what is good now as oposed to the long term greater good. I do agree with you Tobodai that totally random lots is a great way to "collect random idiots" but perhaps it would not be as bad as you think. Perhaps it would force people to get more involved and educated. But at the same time perhaps as history has shown it would be a mistake.
This idea that the "madding crowd" - to use the words of Thomas Hardy - is not to be trusted was at the heart of the debates held by the founding fathers of the US. This Machiavellian model was the one that won out over the Venitian/Guiciardinian model.
The notion that the American public would bring back public execution, abolish abortion, and ban the theory of evolution is absurd. Yes there are plenty who would want all these things to come to fruition. There are however just as many who would fight to the death to see these samething never happen. These are contentious issues that split the country 50/50.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 00:22 |
I served on jury duty recently, any faith I once had in the random people bettering themselves to suit their new position is totally gone now. I had to fight tooth and nail to say "yes person X deserves Y, and Person X is testimony is compromized by unsavory personality defect Y, but your job is to go with what is applicable UNDER ESTABLISHED LAW. It took me a long time to get those morons around to reason. If I hadnt been there it would have been a legal disaster, and Im sure those little disasters happen everywhere in courtrooms around the country everyday.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Paul
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Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 05:00 |
So you Hung em High.
It wasn't by any chance like that Henry Fonda movie 12 Angry Men. 11 fools think he's innocent but Tobodai one by one talks em round to guilty......
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Tobodai
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Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 14:13 |
I wish it was that interesting. Actually, sorry to dissapoint you, I was argung for a lighter sentance. My "peers" wanted to give the dude 15 years because they were all emotional and mad and I said "law +plus mitigating factors=like 8 years. I won in the end but it sure destroyed my faith in the jury dominated system.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Denis
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Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 15:16 |
I believe someone has given a name for this political idea somewhere -
demarchy. Google it. Basically, under what was suggested to be a
communist system, a random selector would select a council of men and
women to rule the country. They would be selected at random. Sounds
like madness if you ask me.
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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"
Victor Hugo
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King John
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Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 15:18 |
Sounds crazy to me too.
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Dan Carkner
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Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 12:58 |
It sounds crazy to me because corruption has long tentacles, just because someone is selected at random doesn't mean they are any less corruptible.
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Denis
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Posted: 15-Jan-2007 at 08:54 |
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/92kio.html
Thats a pretty good article, I reccomend you read it.
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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"
Victor Hugo
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