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QuoteReplyTopic: Hidden Armenians in Turkey Posted: 11-May-2007 at 09:15
The program was made on French Tv, part of the ongoing Turcophobia, Islamophobia and xenophobia taking root there, oh the pseudo crypto Armenians living in fear changing identity like chamaeleans...please...
Hemshins are muslim, go tell them they're Armenian and tell me what they do to you
Edited by Bulldog - 11-May-2007 at 09:17
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
dont you think, If these muslim armenians call themself as armenian, All Turkey will know them
Thats exactly why they WOULDN'T call themselves Armenians, but rather, Hamshenis. They see how Armenians get treated.
Originally posted by Mortaza
I have no idea about georgian or russian hemsins. I am talking about Turkey hemsins.
Representatives of Turkey's Hamshenis were also present in the diaspora meetings.
i can see that your knowledge of turkey is tainted by nationalist bias, so let me shed a little light for you with some cultural information.
the most popular sport in turkey is football. one of the three major football clubs in turkey is besiktas, with literally millions of supporters in turkey.
now, besiktas fans are particularly dedicated, and they develop their own traditions and songs within the home stadium of besiktas. one of these traditions began when an armenian man would start the songs of the crowd with a salute that he made, in which he waved his arms in a specific way. i forgot his name, when i remember it i will post it, because i want you to look him up on youtube.com
this man is considered one of the leaders of the multi-million besiktas fans. noone cares that he is an armenian or that he is christian. the fans all love him regardless of it.
We've certainly heard enough about Armenian orphans. What about Turkish orphans? This other side of the coin is invisible in Western reportage, because the 2.5 million non-Armenian Ottomans who lost their lives simply were not considered important. Yet such a cataclysmic loss produced a good share of orphans, as well.
The following excerpt from Halide Edib's THE TURKISH ORDEAL (1928) tells us of the abuse from Armenians that Turkish orphans faced. We're constantly told about the "forced conversion" of Armenians, and no doubt there was some of that going on. But here is the other side of the coin, the "forced conversion" of Turks. Naturally, after the Entente victory, the Armenians were in a greater power position within what was left of the occupied Ottoman Empire, after 1918.
The following has been made available elsewhere on the site (as this page), referencing Kamuran Gurun's "The Armenian File." But what is below is the more complete version. Thanks to reader Cihan for making it available.
pp. 16-18:
In the midst of all this the taking of the Armenian children from the Turkish orphanages began to assume a tragic aspect. There were a large number of Turkish orphanages in Anatolia filled with Turkish children whose parents had been the victims of the Armenians. These orphanages had taken Armenian children as well and made them Moslems (which was wrong). The rest of the Armenian orphans were taken by the Americans. Apart from this some Turkish families had taken Armenian children out of kindness and pity without any desire to make them Moslems: for the Moslem Turks do not have the missionary instincts of the Christians of the West. That the Armenians want their children back from those orphanages, and that the British should help them, was very natural. Indeed so much were these orphanages suffering from want and misery that I believe they were glad to have their hands free of them. Anyway, Turkey seemed a country where the number of orphans and their suffering were pitiful to see. Somehow the Turkish orphans got the worst of it. There were about ninety thousand Turkish orphans, and the orphanages contained only twelve thousand children. In the southern and eastern regions there were practically no Turkish orphanages worthy of the name, and the American relief organization in those years took only Christian orphans.
Author and humanitarian Halide Edip
An international committee for the separation of the Armenian children was formed under the patronage of Colonel Heathcote Smythe. It rented a house in Shishli , and the central committee which had to separate the children were mostly Armenians. Nezih Hanum, the general secretary of the womens section of the Red Crescent, was asked to represent the Turks. She went three times a week for nearly two months, but resigned afterward. She used to say that her presence did not in any way help the Turkish children, who were being Armenianized daily. The children who were brought to the association were left in the care of the Armenian women, and these Armenian women, either by persuasion or threats or hypnotism, forced the Turkish children to learn by heart the name of an Armenian woman for their mother and the name of an Armenian man for their father. All this I heard from Nezihe Hanum, who is still the general secretary of the Turkish women's Red Crescent and a very well-known woman both in Turkish and European circles in Istamboul. So much for individual cases. When the children were brought in large numbers from the orphanages of Anatolia they were sent to the Armenian Church in Koum Kapou, a hot-pot which boiled the Turkish children and dished them out as Armenians. Some children tried to run away but were always brought back.
The 1964 reprint of the Naim-Andonian forgeries tried to make a villain out of Halide Edip. Here, she is identified as surrounded by Armenian orphans. To such propagandists, no other orphans existed... no one else suffered, only the Armenians.
It happened at that time that I was visiting Nezih Hanum in the Red Crescent office, when two frightened boys, one limping and the other wounded on the head, which was tied up with a dirty white rag, broke into her room. They wore the khaki uniform of the orphanages; their clothes were torn, and they looked miserable and frightened beyond description. And they told their story. They came from an orphanage recently brought to the church. They had fiercely objected to being made into Armenians: Armenians had massacred their parents. They had been badly beaten but they had managed to run away. The first member of the police they met had brought them up to the Red Crescent office. They begged in tears to be protected and not sent back. Nezih Hanum telephoned to a few Turkish press representatives and asked them to take the children to the British embassy and make them say what they had to say to Mr. Ryan, the first dragoman, the man who had been directing the British policy in Turkey for years and who spoke good Turkish. Although well known for his intense hatred of the Turks, still, the sight of two innocent children in this helpless condition might make him look at their case favorably, thought Nezih Hanum. Two young journalists went with them to the embassy. It was quite dramatic. I heard that as the children were speaking, an Armenian employee entered the room to say something to Mr. Ryan, whereupon one of the children turned and exclaimed, "This is the man who has kicked us and beaten us." Apparently the man was a member of the council in the church of Koum Kapou.
In the meantime these public scandals led the British to ask the American Near East Relief to open a center in Bebek to take care of the children and to give judgment, among other things, as to which was which. The center was opened-it had the advantage of being clean-and the children were well looked after. It was run on more equitable lines; but there also the Armenians got the benefit of the doubt. As Nezih Hanum had retired, it was Naki Hanum this time who represented the Turks. She also could not bear it for more than a few weeks. The difficulty was the impossibility of producing official papers. Any child who could not produce identification papers, which many could not, was taken as an Armenian. The last case had been too much for Naki Hanum. A Turkish boy called Kiazim, from Adana, had been taken as an Armenian but did not submit easily. The boy was the son of a Turkish official in Adana. His father had died. As he had no mother either, the neighbors had given him to the orphanage to get something of an education. The boy remembered his father and his former life very clearly. But when the commission wrote to Adana and asked for a copy of his birth certificate, it was found that the government house, together with the desired papers, had been burned during the riots. The boy was pronounced Armenian. He had stuck to Naki Hanum, crying and begging to be saved. But the commission was obdurate. Then the boy had stood up and said, "Kiazim is small, Kiazim is weak, his fists cannot protect him, but the time will come when Kiazim will be strong: then he will show the world that he is a Turk."
Naki Hanum left the Bebek center and never returned, nor could the Bebek center itself keep going. For the Armenians were not content with occasionally wresting a Turkish child from its nationality; they wanted every child brought there to be pronounced an Armenian without exception. So far even the American missionaries could not go in their Christian zeal.
The pain of the little creature affected me strangely as Naki Hanum told me about it. To me he was a symbol of the helpless Turkish nation at the moment. He had been small and weak.
Bulldog and Kurt, I already acknowledged that most Turks are not
racist and hostile towards Armenians, and that this trend is more
prevalent in the east. I did acknowledge, however, that there is a significant
portion of the population that does feel this way. Stop using the
Islamophobia card, its a useless tactic, especially when you consider
that hundreds of thousands of Armenians are proud to be citizens of
predominantly Muslim countries like Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran.
Originally posted by Bulldog
Hemshins are muslim, go tell them they're Armenian and tell me what they do to you
We already went over this in detail in this thread. Please go to the first page and read.
And Kurt, tallarmeniantale.com is the most famous
propaganda site for Turkish-Armenian relations, so its not saying much
when you post articles from them. I'm not saying that your story is false, but it would help if you had a semi-respectable
source for it....
And its interesting how Armenians would have this much power in
Turkey in 1918, at this time Enver Pasha's army was marching through
Armenia to Baku.
im just going to pop in and remind you guys that it would be best for this thread to talk about its original subject and not who is the bigger victim etc etc. So lets not get stuck on beating up personal opinions or POV, such things are unavoidable. Also dropping into the thread with other articles that have nothing to do with the Hamshenis does nothing for this thread.
My opinion- No one else can define the Hamshenis, not the turks or the Armenians, only themselves. I would strongly suspect that their answers will vary, the answer will have its own variety and change by region and individual.
Bulldog and Kurt, I already acknowledged that most Turks are not racist and hostile towards Armenians, and that this trend is more prevalent in the east. I did acknowledge, however, that there is a significant portion of the population that does feel this way. Stop using the Islamophobia card, its a useless tactic, especially when you consider that hundreds of thousands of Armenians are proud to be citizens of predominantly Muslim countries like Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran.
Originally posted by Bulldog
Hemshins are muslim, go tell them they're Armenian and tell me what they do to you
We already went over this in detail in this thread. Please go to the first page and read.
And Kurt, tallarmeniantale.com is the most famous propaganda site for Turkish-Armenian relations, so its not saying much when you post articles from them. I'm not saying that your story is false, but it would help if you had a semi-respectable source for it....
And its interesting how Armenians would have this much power in Turkey in 1918, at this time Enver Pasha's army was marching through Armenia to Baku.
i would tell you why a 'significant' portion of turkey's population dislike armenians, but it would involving mentioning a topic which is blacklisted in this forum. instead, i will stress to you that this portion is a minority, and will ask you to stop exaggerating their significance, as the armenian population of turkey live predominantly in istanbul and the people who hate armenians live in the east, so there is no contact and almost no conflict.
for you, tallarmeniantale.com may be a propaganda site, because it proves the armenian lies wrong, but for turks it is a source of information and truth which has been a longtime coming. just because it takes a perspective on an issue which contradicts yours doesn't mean that it should be ignored when referenced. even scholars from the university here in perth have praised it because it mentions it sources, unlike most armenian sites on the internet. and for the article i copied and pasted it mentioned its source, meaning it should not be disregarded as you are implying it should.
your thread is invalid because it assumes there are armenians in turkey who are suppressed in terms of identity. another thread by another nationalist to demonise turkey. unfortunately for you, these armenian rooted turks are in fact the most patriotic turks out there, and are most certainly not suppressed.
enver pashas army marched from trabzon to baku. they didnt bypass diyarbakir and erzurum where these events occured.
as the armenian population of turkey live predominantly in istanbul and
the people who hate armenians live in the east, so there is no contact
and almost no conflict.
Well, most of these "hidden" Armenians are in Eastern Turkey, and as according to you Turks in the East "hate" Armenians, then they have no choice but to be hidden.
Originally posted by kurt
for you, tallarmeniantale.com may be a propaganda site, because it
proves the armenian lies wrong, but for turks it is a source of
information and truth which has been a longtime coming.
Its not only for "us" but also others who look at the Armenian
Genocide, including many Turks...even ones that post here, and do not
necesseraly believe that Genocide was a fact.
The fact that your professors think that TaT is an "informative source"
is rather saddening, perhaps you should switch to a more reputable
University.
Originally posted by Kurt
your thread is invalid because it assumes there are armenians in
turkey who are suppressed in terms of identity. another thread by
another nationalist to demonise turkey. unfortunately for you, these
armenian rooted turks are in fact the most patriotic turks out there,
and are most certainly not suppressed.
How is the thread invalid...the thread is based on the reporting, which states that they are suppressed.
And what makes you say that those with Armenian roots are the "most patriotic Turks" (not that I am saying you are wrong)
[QUOTE=Kurt]enver pashas army marched from trabzon to baku. they
didnt bypass diyarbakir and erzurum where these events occured.[/Kurt]
Armenian in 1918 barely survived in the Ararat valley, how were they going to massacre Turks in Erzurum and Dyarbakir , you are again using TaT as your source, which really is not a source just jibberish propaganda.
i would tell you why a 'significant' portion of turkey's population
dislike armenians, but it would involving mentioning a topic which is
blacklisted in this forum. instead, i will stress to you that this
portion is a minority, and will ask you to stop exaggerating their
significance, as the armenian population of turkey live predominantly
in istanbul and the people who hate armenians live in the east, so
there is no contact and almost no conflict
The Armenian population of Turkey lives predominantly in Istanbul
NOW, but less than 100 years ago, the vast majority of them lived in
eastern Turkey, exactly the place where "people who hate Armenians"
live. And as mamikon said, most of the hidden Armenians live in eastern
Turkey, so if people hate them there (as you have admitted) they would
HAVE to stay hidden.
And kurt, if you've been reading this thread, you would have
noticed that I've mentioned in at least 2 posts that the dislike of
Armenians is generally more predominant in eastern Turkey, not so much
in the west.
Originally posted by kurt
for you, tallarmeniantale.com may be a propaganda site, because it
proves the armenian lies wrong, but for turks it is a source of
information and truth which has been a longtime coming
A source of truth? Let me show everyone here a
sample text from the website's sole author, in the 'about us' section:
Originally posted by Tallarmeniantale.com
If you think this logic makes sense, and
realize there really isn't a reason for a typically prejudiced, anti-Turkish
Westerner to speak well of the Turks except for reasons of integrity, then...
generally speaking... regarding information that comes from a "Pro-Turk"
Westerner, please keep in mind the following scientific formula :
Honestly, we have discussed this Mickey-Mouse website before, and
you are only degenerating this thread by making serious references to
it.
Originally posted by kurt
your thread is invalid because it assumes there are
armenians in turkey who are suppressed in terms of identity
My thread is based on a serious news station's reporting. You even
admitted yourself that "people who hate Armenians live in the east",
and its been established that these hidden Armenians live in the east,
so I don't know what you're trying to argue. If most of your argument
comes from things that are posted on tallarmeniantale.com, then we've
gone down that road in other threads, and I don't want to have it
repeated in this one.
You're saying that armenians are being supressed and keeping their identity hidden. For one thing, why would a Turk (as he knows himself) want to all of a sudden become an armenian?
As for people who are armenian and are holding their identity, shouldn't they move back to their beloved home-land instead of to the capital (in terms of power) of the country that 'hates' them?
You're saying that armenians are being supressed and keeping their
identity hidden. For one thing, why would a Turk (as he knows himself)
want to all of a sudden become an armenian?
If they found out one of their parents or grandparents were
Armenian (but hidden), or if they found out their family was forced to
convert to Islam in order to escape the mass exiles of WWI, it can
change their perception of their own identity.
Originally posted by aslanar
As for people who are armenian and are holding their identity,
shouldn't they move back to their beloved home-land instead of to the
capital (in terms of power) of the country that 'hates' them?
Most of their 'beloved homeland' is in the current Republic of
Turkey (eastern part). Their people have been living and building
civilizations there for thousands of years. The fact that they go to
Istanbul shows you that they have nothing against Turkey, since they
still want to live there (plus its a hassle to cross when Turkey has
closed borders with Armenia). The reason they go to Istanbul is because
its
the biggest, most international city in Turkey, and there is generally
a lot more tolerance towards minoritys' cultures compared to the east.
That is where a lot of these hidden Armenians can get exposure to the
Armenian culture, and become more integrated in the Armenian community
of Turkey. Some of them end up staying in Istanbul (afterall its a nice
city), and many of them go back home to the east.
Honestly, we have discussed this Mickey-Mouse website before, and you are only degenerating this thread by making serious references to it.
Mickey-mouse website... now where have I heard that before, its actually a pretty informative site, it includes lots of sources from various historians and scholors including the anti-Turk viewpoint. It gets more and more recognition, I mean compared to some Armenian Turcophobic hate sites where the suspicion of being a Turk is enough to get you banned its not nearly as bad as you seem to make out.
Armeniansurvival
If they found out one of their parents or grandparents were Armenian (but hidden), or if they found out their family was forced to convert to Islam in order to escape the mass exiles of WWI, it can change their perception of their own identity.
This is nothing but a wild conspiracy based upon a French media broadcast, with the Islamophobic Turcophobic nonsense comming out of segments of the French media these days its just another piece of propoganda and hate mongering.
If this was the case, they could just say they're muslim to authorities and carry on everyday life. Your telling me they not only said they were muslim, twenty, thirty, forty years later when they were all Turkish citizens that they remained muslim, built mosques in their villages, totally forgot Armenian and changed their identity?
The same can then be said about the muslims of Yerevan who made up 60-70% of the population up till the 1900's, there could be hidden Turks in Armenia aswell then.
Armeniansurvival
The fact that they go to Istanbul shows you that they have nothing against Turkey, since they still want to live there (plus its a hassle to cross when Turkey has closed borders with Armenia). The reason they go to Istanbul is because its the biggest, most international city in Turkey, and there is generally a lot more tolerance towards minoritys' cultures compared to the east. That is where a lot of these hidden Armenians can get exposure to the Armenian culture, and become more integrated in the Armenian community of Turkey. Some of them end up staying in Istanbul (afterall its a nice city), and many of them go back home to the east.
This is ridiculous.
The Armenian community of Istanbul is as old as when Fatih the Conquerer invited Armenians to the city back in the 15th century
and helped set up the Armenian Patriarch headquarters in the city. The Istanbul Armenian community is one with firm roots now in the city, they wern't involved in WW1, many fought on the Turks side and were intellects and important figures during the early years after the revolution.
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
Mickey-mouse website... now where have I heard that before, its
actually a pretty informative site, it includes lots of sources from
various historians and scholors including the anti-Turk viewpoint. It
gets more and more recognition, I mean compared to some Armenian
Turcophobic hate sites where the suspicion of being a Turk is enough to
get you banned its not nearly as bad as you seem to make out.
You are taking the standards of a random Armenian forum somewhere
on the net, and applying it to a site which is supposed to provide
objective information on one of the most studied events in the 20th
century. I don't know your standards, but putting the sentence
"pro-Turk=pro-Truth" in a vital page on the website is not the sign of
a scholar or serious historian. I'm not even mentioning all the other
ridiculous parts of that website, just that one line is enough.
And it does not mention the "anti-Turk" viewpoint, or else it would
have provided the links to the International Center for Transitional
Justice, International Association of Genocide Scholars, or one of the
hundreds of other bodies which clearly
disagree and disapprove of what tallarmeniantale.com has to say about
Turkish-Armenian relations.
Originally posted by Bulldog
This is nothing but a wild conspiracy based upon a French media
broadcast, with the Islamophobic Turcophobic nonsense comming out of
segments of the French media these days its just another piece of
propoganda and hate mongering.
I already mentioned the experience of my father's aunt in
Istanbul, I knew about this a long time ago, and so have other
Armenians, but this is the first time
a foreign news station did a report on it (that I know of). But you're
probably right, its just one huge conspiracy aimed at Turkey
Originally posted by Bulldog
If this was the case, they could just say they're muslim to authorities
and carry on everyday life. Your telling me they not only said they
were muslim, twenty, thirty, forty years later when they were all
Turkish citizens that they remained muslim, built mosques in their
villages, totally forgot Armenian and changed their identity?
No, they said they were Muslim back in WW1, but they suddenly
didn't have amnesia and forget their background and descent. Many chose
to stay hidden to make life less complicated.
Originally posted by Bulldog
The same can then be said about the muslims of Yerevan who made up
60-70% of the population up till the 1900's, there could be hidden
Turks in Armenia aswell then.
Muslims were as high as 60-70% during the Khanate of Yerevan in
the 18th century, when the Persian rulers were uprooting Armenian
communities from the region and moving in their own (New Joulfa is one
example). Either way, in 1920 Yerevan was just a town of 30,000 people,
it became a significant city after hundreds of thousands of Armenians
from all around the Soviet Union started moving to the Armenian SSR
after Armenia was defeated by the Red Army and incorporated into the
union.
Originally posted by Bulldog
Armeniansurvival
The fact that they go to Istanbul shows you that they
have nothing against Turkey, since they still want to live there (plus
its a hassle to cross when Turkey has closed borders with Armenia). The
reason they go to Istanbul is because its the biggest, most
international city in Turkey, and there is generally a lot more
tolerance towards minoritys' cultures compared to the east. That is
where a lot of these hidden Armenians can get exposure to the Armenian
culture, and become more integrated in the Armenian community of
Turkey. Some of them end up staying in Istanbul (afterall its a nice
city), and many of them go back home to the east.
This is ridiculous.
The Armenian community of Istanbul is as old as when Fatih the Conquerer invited Armenians to the city back in the 15th century
and helped set up the Armenian Patriarch headquarters in the city.
The Istanbul Armenian community is one with firm roots now in the city,
they wern't involved in WW1, many fought on the Turks side and were
intellects and important figures during the early years after the
revolution.
Thats exactly why these hidden Armenians from the east go to
Istanbul to get exposed to and become better integrated in the Armenian
community of Turkey, as its virtually the only major city in Turkey in
which Armenians weren't persecuted en masse. Nothing I said conflicts
with your reply (Although I disagree when you said they weren't
involved in WW1, but I won't get into that in this thread).
boy, you've made alot of posts filled with BS, armeniansurvival, i find it hard to keep up with you. but lets begin:
"these hidden Armenians from the east go to Istanbul to get exposed to and become better integrated in the Armenian community of Turkey, as its virtually the only major city in Turkey in which Armenians weren't persecuted en masse. Nothing I said conflicts with your reply (Although I disagree when you said they weren't involved in WW1, but I won't get into that in this thread)."
izmir, antalya and edirne have armenian populations as well, and they are not persecuted in these cities, and the armenian communities there have existed for about 400 years.
"Most of their 'beloved homeland' is in the current Republic of Turkey (eastern part). Their people have been living and building civilizations there for thousands of years. The fact that they go to Istanbul shows you that they have nothing against Turkey, since they still want to live there (plus its a hassle to cross when Turkey has closed borders with Armenia). The reason they go to Istanbul is because its the biggest, most international city in Turkey, and there is generally a lot more tolerance towards minoritys' cultures compared to the east. That is where a lot of these hidden Armenians can get exposure to the Armenian culture, and become more integrated in the Armenian community of Turkey. Some of them end up staying in Istanbul (afterall its a nice city), and many of them go back home to the east. "
the border was closed in 1992, due to armenia's massacre of 1 500 innocent people in khojaly during their war with azerbaijan. before then it hadn't been closed, so the small proportion of christian hamshenis had 69 years to move to armenia. heres a fact: many did move, and in fact moved back to turkey because armenia was and still is too poor to provide them economic security. in fact a significant portion (if not majority) of armenians in eastern anatolia are armenians who crossed the border illegally. my cousin, who patrolled that border during his national service, told me that on average a dozen armenian families were caught trying to sneak through the border into turkey.
heres an underlying fact which i feel you should me made aware of: the armenians in eastern turkey don't hide their identity because their government persecutes them, as you are so arrogantly implying in this thread, but because eastern turkey is inhabited by kurds, and kurds HATE armenians. such to the point that they are massacred.
and about tallarmeniantale.com. you claim we should dismiss all historical evidence it provides because it is takes a turkish perspective. regardless of the fact that it cites its sources in every page, that it includes first hand accounts, and testimony from people who's profession is history, you insist it contains no worthwhile information. very well, lets take this logic one step further: shouldn't we dismiss everything you have to say, as you yourself are bias about armenians?
izmir, antalya and edirne have armenian populations as well, and they
are not persecuted in these cities, and the armenian communities there
have existed for about 400 years
During WW1 there were Armenians deported from these cities as
well. Although to get back to the topic, the discrimination of
Armenians is not notable in those places nowadays, as I said western
Turkey's population doesn't have much of a problem with Armenians.
Originally posted by kurt
the border was closed in 1992, due to armenia's massacre of
1 500 innocent people in khojaly during their war with
azerbaijan
Even Azeri sources don't put the number of dead higher than 613. I
don't know where you got 1500 from. And those weren't soldiers from the
Armenian army btw, they were Karabagh irregular guerilla forces. Also,
this event was a completely isolated incident. Plus, its off-topic,
there is another thread about Karabagh if you want to continue
Originally posted by kurt
before then it hadn't been closed, so the small proportion
of christian hamshenis had 69 years to move to armenia.
During these '69 years' Armenia was part of the Soviet Union, and
there was a little event going on known as the cold war, where Turkey
was an American ally against the USSR.
Originally posted by kurt
heres a fact: many did move, and in fact moved back to turkey because
armenia was and still is too poor to provide them economic security. in
fact a significant portion (if not majority) of armenians in eastern
anatolia are armenians who crossed the border illegally. my cousin, who
patrolled that border during his national service, told me that on
average a dozen armenian families were caught trying to sneak through
the border into turkey.
Ok, whats your point? This only goes to show you that people will
put up with some intolerance if they can get a decent, stable job.
Their only alternative was to stay in Armenia and live like scavengers.
Originally posted by kurt
heres an underlying fact which i feel you should me made aware of: the
armenians in eastern turkey don't hide their identity because their
government persecutes them, as you are so arrogantly implying in this
thread, but because eastern turkey is inhabited by kurds, and kurds
HATE armenians. such to the point that they are massacred
So you're saying they are hidden because the
Kurds hate them. Look at what you wrote only a couple of posts ago:
Originally posted by kurt
your thread is invalid because it assumes there are
armenians in turkey who are suppressed in terms of identity.
So besides admitting that Armenians in east Turkey have to be
hidden (which you denied before), according to you eastern Turkey is
only inhabited by Kurds. Or there are also Turks, but none of them can
be racists, and only the Kurds can be racists? You're changing your
argument so often that its hard to keep up.
Originally posted by kurt
and about tallarmeniantale.com. you claim we should dismiss all
historical evidence it provides because it is takes a turkish
perspective. regardless of the fact that it cites its sources in every
page, that it includes first hand accounts, and testimony from people
who's profession is history, you insist it contains no worthwhile
information. very well, lets take this logic one step further:
shouldn't we dismiss everything you have to say, as you yourself are
bias about armenians?
The difference is my information is parallel to that of
institutions like the International Association of Genocide Scholars,
International Center for Transitional Justice, and from historians who
actually have degrees and are endorsed by top-class universities. Your
information comes from a site written by a random guy with no
credentials who believes "Pro-Turk=Pro-Truth". Enough said.
The fact that the only minority in Turkey are the Kurds(wich is totaly not true) are
1. There numbers you can't ignore a couple of million people(although it was done for a long time by calling them mountain Turks) 2. They live in specific regions were they make up all if not most of the population.
to stay on Topic:
A while ago i has een a program on the BBC it was about a "british" reporter who thought he had or knew that he had Armenian origins. He went to Istanbul..... He was of the gllsaray family wich is a big and quite familly I found out..
Does any of you seen this programm. I can't remeber the details so much.
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
A while ago i has een a program on the BBC it was about a "british"
reporter who thought he had or knew that he had Armenian origins. He
went to Istanbul..... He was of the gllsaray family wich is a big and
quite familly I found out..
Does any of you seen this programm. I can't remeber the details so much.
I havent seen or heard of it, sounds interesting. Do you remember if the
gllsaray family was an Armenian family? This happens to quite a few
people, discovering their Armenian roots. The Armenians' most
successful general in the Karabagh conflict was a native Californian
who didn't know he was Armenian until he was around 18 or 20, when he
visited his grandfather's home in eastern Turkey.
Originally posted by xi tujue
1. There numbers you can't ignore a couple of million people(although
it was done for a long time by calling them mountain Turks)
Do you know who came up with the term
'Mountain Turks'? Was it a term created by the state, or by a political
group?
Do you know who came up with the term 'Mountain Turks'? Was it a term created by the state, or by a political group?
unquote
as far as i know it was a term created by state after 1980 coup, it was used by a military public prosecutor during a trial, who was claiming that kurds are group of turks living up in the mountains where there was heavy snow and when they walked on this snow, it sounded "kart kurt". he claimed the word kurd came from this "kart kurt". as far as i experienced not many turks believed this theory, it was like a joke for them
i came up with the details of this info a few days ago and i have just one source for this and it is the case of baskin oran while he was being tried for his so called "minority report"
Do you know who came up with the term 'Mountain Turks'? Was it a term created by the state, or by a political group?
unquote
armeniansurvival, as far as i know it was a term created by the state after 1980 coup, it was used by a military public prosecutor during a trial, who was claiming that kurds are group of turks living up in the mountains where there was heavy snow and when they walked on this snow, it sounded "kart kurt". he claimed the word kurd came from this "kart kurt". as far as i experienced not many turks believed this theory, it was like a joke for them made by kenan evren
i came up with the details of this info a few days ago and i have just one source for this and it is the case of baskin oran while he was being tried for his so called "minority report"
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