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Aelfgifu
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Topic: Oppression of American women Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 08:27 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
In this case, her dad appeared uncaring even for your typical anglo.
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Am I reading from this the man was just plain rude and uninterested? Cause that is a whole different thing of course. Which has nothing to do with culture at all, being completely uninterested in your daughters new boyfriend is not done in any society.
no point in being independent if you don't have to be. |
Much less point in being dependable if you don't have to be.
Edited by Aelfgifu - 20-Jun-2007 at 09:26
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 20:32 |
Am I reading from this the man was just plain rude and
uninterested? Cause that is a whole different thing of course. Which
has nothing to do with culture at all, being completely uninterested in
your daughters new boyfriend is not done in any society. |
Not rude, but certainly uninterested. Anyway I know you can't judge a society by one person. The whole point of the example was to show the difference between a strong family culture and a weak one. How 'freedom and space' in many ways is a bad thing. Gods honest truth I was only shocked because I chose to be and want to pretend I'm more conservative than astute.
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 05:12 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
My suggestion to Omar would be becoming more of his own rather that allowing the ideas of other to govern his emotions. |
Dipo, I have at least three different cultures in my mums side of the family alone. No, make that 4 I forgot the Latvians. Another 2 on my dads side, and I can't count the number I have to deal with in any typical day.
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Dude, you are confusing culture with ethnicities... Culture refers to '' the way we do things here'' actually... So in your environment it is norm that dady bullies or at least look downs on the boyfriend. How do you I know? Because I also live in a collectivist environment.
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Reginmund
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Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 07:27 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
The whole point of the example was to show the difference between a strong family culture and a weak one. |
This is a rather careless choice of words; even though the social boundaries are different this does not mean the emotional commitment between the family members is less strong. It's possible to care a great deal about a person and at the same time allow that person considerable freedom.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 01:59 |
@Dipo: No I meant cultures not ethnicity. @Reginmund: By saying a weak family culture in no way did I mean they love their kids less.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 05:11 |
Well, I still do not see the advantage of a sytem based on personal violence over a system based on national law. If we do not accept civilians playing judge in other things, why should it be allowed here?
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 21:52 |
It is no more a system of personal violence than national law is a system of state based violence. I mean that literally, both systems are, in theory, based on violence.
I think what causes the biggest advantage is that people always deal with personal issues, while hardly ever deal with the state. The state is big uncaring and often mistrusted, family and friends are not.
Similar to this issue there is a current controversy about remote aboriginal settlements. In many of these places there is alot of domestic violence, substance abuse, and terrible living conditions. The 'states' proposed solution (supported by both major parties) is to revoke the autonomous status these settlements were granted under previous aboriginal rights agreements and send in the police and possibly army to enforce law - A completely stupid idea. Sending the oppressors of a people to prevent domestic violence in their community. National Law in our case is completely unable to prevent domestic violence that has been caused by a complete breakdown in the aborigines way of life (due to white occupation)
If a society doesn't allow the national law to be a trusted mediator, and a final word, national law doesn't work. The aborigines have every reason to mistrust the police - their prime persecutors - and because of this domestic violence in their communities is rampant.
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Serge L
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Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 16:26 |
Omar, I see a problem about families (or clans or tribes etc.) carrying on their own law: it can easily degenerate into feuds. BTW, it's not a case mafia gangs often call themselves "families" The state is a more distant and, therefore, impartial judge.
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morticia
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Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 15:16 |
Originally posted by Reginmund
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
The whole point of the example was to show the difference between a strong family culture and a weak one. |
This is a rather careless choice of words; even though the social boundaries are different this does not mean the emotional commitment between the family members is less strong. It's possible to care a great deal about a personand at the same time allow that person considerable freedom. |
Ditto for Reginmund!
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst
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New User
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Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 11:47 |
State law when done right can protect anyone who seeks their protection.
Family protection depends entirely on your family which can be problematic if your family is violent or bullies you.
In an ideal law we could all run into the arms of our loving family for protection etc but remember alot of abuse violent or otherwise to young women (sometimes men) can come from their families in the first place. Also relying on family protection gives rise to the rule of the strong, if your family has less members who can protect than the spouses family you are stuffed so to speak.
Its also worth remembering that domestic violence can be also started by women on men or on female partners, something that the police forces don't often deal with at all well.
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AyKurt
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Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 13:07 |
Originally posted by TheDiplomat
Originally posted by Constantine XI
Put yourself in the position of a central Asian woman. You probably received little education and were probably married at a young age to someone who suited your family's taste, already this is not going to be helpful. The strong presence of an honour culture and the need for the head of the family (your husband) to appear in charge, means that your obediance to his will is required. The last thing he needs is to be seen as unable to control his wife. This is also bad.
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Poor example. The Central Asian Women are the ones who got the most education among Muslim Women. They avarge more than 99% literacy rate and occupy much more degrees at university thanks to mass education provided by the Soviet Communism.
If you had suggested him to put himself into the shoes of a women living in Arab Peninsula, I tend to agree with you then. |
I thought the same at first when he said Central Asian but i think what he was meaning was southern Asian women, i.e. Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.
Although there are some cultural and religious similarites between them, generally Central Asians are from a different traditional background to southern Asians.
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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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AyKurt
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Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 13:33 |
I don't think you we can say one system is better than the other, they both have advantages and disadvantages.
The point of having a family behind you isn't to have backup to beat up a husband of your sister or daughter. Its an outlook. That although she may be your wife she is from a collective background and thus if you attack her you also attack her family. Therefore they are entitled to seek retribution. Its more a preventative measure. The abusive husband would be less inclined to attack his wife if he knew that there will be serious consequences to his actions.
Of course this doesn't take into account drunken or stupid husbands who may not understand the seriousness of his actions.
Another disadvantage that Omar hasn't taken into account is community attitudes. Mortaza already mentioned that some communities may not think it wrong to hit your wife, that its sometimes necessary. This attitude is quite common in many parts of the world unfortunately.
So these "tribal" ways are only as good as the environment where they are practiced.
If it was socially unacceptable to hit your wife then a family seeking retribution would be supported by the abusive husbands family since the husband would also have shamed his own family with his behaviour, in this environment a feud between families wont happen. It will also be an even greater disincentive to the husband than just having to face up to his wifes family.
This type of justice depends largely on the local attitudes to whats honourable and whats respectful.
As for judicial justice in many cases it works well but not always. Most countries are realistic enough to admit that most cases of domestic abuse goes unreported. Usually unless a murder has been commited the punishments are weak. Restraining orders are not always used or effective.
The abusive husband also knows that he will unlikely face retribution from his wifes family and can easily intimidate his wife to not report the assault to the police. Unless its reported the authorities cant do anything and the victim will have to live with the abuse.
Lets not romanticise state justice. In most cases of domestic abuse they are powerless or ineffectual.
I think that a better and safer society is one that applies the best of both methods.
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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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