I realize that practically everyone thinks the Aryans originally came from the steppes of Russia, for example, the Scythians.  My own theory is the Aryans were originally a very pure race that evolved in Northern Europe,  They were isolated in their homeland based on the cold and snow north of the Alps.  I find it interesting these people apparently stayed in the far north so long that there hair and skin turned white (also natural selection process), which is good camouflage and also allows in more vitamin D in a weak sun environment.  They must have been there a long time, possibly 50,000 years or more to get so white.  Look at the Eskimoes, they have been in the far north for thousands of years and their hair is still black and they haven't lightened very much.  Cro-Magnon skeletons have been found over 100,000 years old.  They have found male Cro-Magnon skeletons that were 6'4" in height.  These were the original big men.  The rest of the men in the world were puny in comparison and easily smashed in later conflicts.  The Aryans lived during the Ice Ages, my guess is everytime it warmed up, they started on their legendary travels, starting new Kingdoms as they went.  Sometimes they were forced by floods to leave their homes and go south.  These Northmen were the progenitors of the Scythians, Hittites, Persians and all of the great empires to follow throughout the eons of time to the present day.    

but that doesnt explain the sogdians, and bactrians, who had set up the first civilisation in central asia about the same time as sumeria in mesopotamia.

so these aryans left before the others? and what about the scythians? their travels seem to indicate that they west east to west, not west to east.

and the conditions you supply can easily be used for siberia also. my theory is that they came from central asia.

by the way, welcome to the forum.

"They must have been there a long time, possibly 50,000 years"

You do know that there was a iceage? It wasn't possible for humans to be in Northern Europe (Scandinavia) for even 20 000 years ago...

I'm sorry but you sound like a racist.

50,000 years ago?

But the core IE language is said to have formed only around 10,000 years ago.  I do not find this very convincing, and there is no real evidencet aht suggests Aryans were exclusively blond or anything like that.

genseric

         i had theorised the ice age and climatic change possibly saw an exodus of peeps from the north similar to what you propose.

       i reckon those same peeps had gotten themselves localised to a certain area by historians given to classing everyone a generic label due to common language and similar culture.

     our views though similar can't be validated 

what ? there was no aryans in europe until celtics. and celts arrived from central europe. Arya is not a race. go learn something on Iran and India. while india or iran were florished aryans civilization, europeen population lived in a nomadic way.

The majoritity of the European population today are decendents of the Aryans.  Except for maybe the Anglo Saxons and the peoples of sweden Norway and Finland.  I also heard the Bask people are original Europeans not decended from Aryans. 

My father told me of a story he heard that the white Devils fought by Rostam and other ancient Iranians are the antcesters of the Vikings. 

And as far as i know Vikings are big people and it seems the Aryans pushed them out so i guess size is not the determining factor in a conflict its smarts and technology i guess.

Has anyone ever read a book on pre-history on this forum?

CroMagnon man evolved in Africa about 100,000 years ago, entered Europe about 35,000 years ago. At that time there was a significant break in the Ice-Age meaning man could live quite far north: Creswell Crags, in the middle of Britain.

About 30,000 years ago the Ice-Age kicked in again and drove all people south into southern Europe, mostly Northern Spain, Southern France and the Northern Balkans. When the Ice-Age finally ended 12,000+ years ago these people began to migrate north again. 

The majority of the people of northern central and western Europe today are the descendants of these people today.

As for Aryans, if they even existed at all, they certainly never came to Europe.

Offcourse they came to Europe

Almost all European langwages have signs of the ancient Aryan IE langwage.  How could you make a comment like that.

It's always difficult to discuss these these subjects without someone's ego or feathers being ruffled.  The history is in the bones and the bones tell the story.  The most advanced man was found in Europe 10s of thousands of years ago.  No other skeletons that advanced have been found in the entire world from the same time period.  This hints at where all subsequent invasions came from.  Homo Erectus skeletons have been found in Africa from the same time period.  If Cro-Magnon and other advanced men had been found in Central Asia that were older then the European skeletons, then I would agree with the Nazi theory that is where Aryans came from.  I am not perfectly equating Cro-Magnon with Aryans, there were other races involved.  For example, there is evidence that Neanderthal  was assimilated by Cro-Magnon in Europe.  They have found skeletal remains in Portugal from 28K years ago that contained Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal DNA.  Perhaps this is where the Basque and British Isles peoples originated.  I also realize that Aryans who were blonder and lighter skinned in N. Europe would obviously obtain darker hair and skin as their original DNA was mixed with more local peoples on a gradual basis as they moved south.  Of course all Northern Europeans did not have blonde hair although it was a sought after trait.  The Celt would smear lime in their hair to make it appear blonder and for mousse effect.  Another point is anyone who believes a local population would readily accept a foreign language, ie. Aryan or Indo-European without a fight is living in a modern dreamworld.  Obvious modern examples being Latin, Spanish, English, etc. which were all spread through conquests.  The conquests of India were accomplished through the chariot and superior military technology.  The Europeans at the exact same time were developing the chariot.  Does not caste translate as color, meaning color of skin?  Perhaps the Bramins of India correlate to the Druids of the Celtoi?

Where are the proofs of this? Tha fact that the majority of Europeans speak a I.E. language today doesn't mean that their ancestors were ethnically homogeneous "Aryans" or others. Afaik genetics doesn't confirm this.

About 30,000 years ago the Ice-Age kicked in again and drove all people south into southern Europe, mostly Northern Spain, Southern France and the Northern Balkans. When the Ice-Age finally ended 12,000+ years ago these people began to migrate north again. 

The majority of the people of northern central and western Europe today are the descendants of these people today.

As for Aryans, if they even existed at all, they certainly never came to Europe.

[/QUOTE]

     This is more or less what i've been saying. Those who

  had migrated south didn't migrate north again all at once. this migration north would have been gradual over a prolonged period of time. Also a lot of the migration wasn't voluntary though through certain displacement enforced by stronger peoples. the choice was flee north; certain death or subjugate to becoming a vassal tribe. 

 the term Aryan is one of those generic labels given by historians. Not all that were labelled Aryan were those that have been classed germanic.

       i too have heard similar tales of the Norse.  They themselves were classed aryan having been in the same area as all the other aryan peoples.  Apparently Odin led his people North and settled some of them in Norway. He himself wasn't there all of the time but would come and go.

      i reckon the settled area could not support all of Odin's people but was used as a homebase whenever Odin needed someplace safe to take his peeps.

         This is all hearsay! maybe someone from Norway could relate a better accurate account .  i was led to believe that the ice age came and went three times hence i reckon Fimbulvetr happened.  Odin led his people in between times and rode towards the huge plain of Vigrid. (steppe)

   Unfortunately everyone else had themselves the same idea. Fighting between all the different peoples took place and many died. Probably because sources of food supply were scarce.

       Afterwards when things settled down and more food became available everyone got on a bit better.

                      anyone care to relate to us about Ragnarok?

white skin for camouflage did you say? kind of useless buried under garb isn't it?

If you leave an area for unpleasently climate conditions - and one of your decendants 100.000 years later, get in the mood for walking, how big a chance is there for him to know where you came from?
I have had trouble enough to trace my family 600 years back!

Off topic - Just for reference....

Odin is not an earthly leader who lead his people around, but a mythological God. He is the allfather of the norse Gods, residing in his hall Valhalla in Asgard with fellow Gods.
He is the Norse version of the Greek God Zeus and the Roman God Jupiter and posseses similar features.

Valhalla is the hall of Odin in Norse myth, where the brave warriors were brought by the Valkyries and would join the Gods and have an eternal life with a feast every night - eating the pig Saehrimnir which magically came back to life again before the next meal.

(bonus info)
Most days of the week are named after the gods in Valhalla.
Tir/Tyr named Tirsdag (nordic) = Tuesday,
Wotan/Odin named Onsdag(nordic) = Wednesday,
Thor named Torsdag (nordic) = Thursday
Freya named Fredag  (nordic) = Friday

You ask about Ragnarok - described in the saga's and by Saxo.

(brief version)
At the end times, the (evil) Giants will meet together to fight the gods in Valhalla and destroy http://paganwiccan.about.com/cs/asatru/a/aanineworlds.htm - all nine worlds , including Midgard where humans live. 

Wolves will eat the sun and moon, and there will be bitter cold. The earth will shake and mountains will fall, and even Yggrasill, the World Tree will tremble.

All the Gods, monsters and giants will die, the world will be cunsumed by fire and sink into the ocean.
A new world will arise from the waves, a new sun will shine.

http://paganwiccan.about.com/cs/asatru/a/aanineworlds.htm -  

   bummer. lol

         i was hoping for someone to explain Ragnarok to us that gave a little credence to the myth. Someone who could translate beyond the legends and give us a better understanding of an actual event.

                      so much for that

  i wasn't advocating peoples moved back to the exact same locations.

Aryans were an eastern branch of the IE tree. the Aryan languages are of the satem variety and have obvious linguistic differences with the centum variety of the west. I think this rules out the possibilty of Aryan languages [and peoples] coming from Northern or Western Europe.  The Eastern European steppes, based on what I have read, is the most likely point of origin for the proto-IE people who later broke up to form the proto-Aryans (who most definately did exist), proto-Germanics and others.  The Aryan group moved into and later divided in Central Asia forming the Mede, Parthian and various Scythian and Persian tribes who spread into the regions which now speak Aryan or Indo-Iranian languages - most other groups divided elsewhere, the Germanics, for example, split somewhere in  north central Europe and Slavs in Russia and Eastern Europe.

  Cro Magnon remains dated to 90,000-95,000bp  were found at three sites in Israel.  Research on these remains indicate they were as advanced as later CMs, not just anatomical but other areas as well, tool making, burial customs, diet etc.  Puts the movement south to north theory in the catbirds seat.     

Frist of all, its not the atlantis story  homo sapians came from one hommid, the algaster.As homo sapians migated out of africa, they changed from the adaption to the enviromemt. Mellon in the skin turned white in  Europe and Russia from less voilet rays. The long trip onto Asia in the cold the  eyes were swollen and the skin change from the diet , less meat and more dairy.however 70,000 years after theToba catastrophe theory, positing that the human population was reduced to a few thousand individuals when the Toba supervolcano in Indonesia erupted and triggered a massive environmental change. and the great tusumis that hit the west coast of africa 80,000 years ago populations were trown together.

All throughout history, only Iranians(from what I know at least) are the only people that referred to themselves as Aryans.  Iran means Land of the Aryans.  I find it hard to believe that the Aryans came from N. Europe, or anywhere else other than Iran.  I dont think the people that already inhabited Iran before the Aryans would want their country to be called "Iran" so thats why I seriously doubt that Aryans came from anywhere else other than Iran.  Besides, not all Europeans are Aryan.  IMO, only the people around the Mediterranean(Spanish,French,Italians,Greeks) in Europe are Aryan.  From these areas, the Aryans migrated onto Northern Europe spreading their language.

Also the whole Aryans being blonde hair, blue eyed is just propoganda that was used by the Nazis.  Only racist Europeans make this claim.  Italians, Greeks, Persians were not originally blond hair, blue eyed.  Racially Italians, Greeks and Iranians are closest to each other.    

Hindus still use it.Arya means a person of Noble Behaviour in Sanskrit.

The term "Aryan" is German/English.Rigveda is composed in Sanskrit.

Which translation of Rigveda did you refer to Sharrukin?

Right.  I use the "German/English term" Aryan in place of the Sanskrit word "Arya".

To the Griffith translation:

http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0039/_index.htm - http://www.intratext.com/ixt/ENG0039/_index.htm

[QUOTE=Sharrukin]To the Griffith translation/QUOTE]

That explains your using the German/English term.

Anyway I personally think it's difficult to pinpoint where the IE family of languages originated.There are different views on this issue.Maybe a more learned member like Maju could have thrown more light on this issue.

If we are talking about a great race of human beings having originated in Northern Europe in this thread,who were very tall and had blonde hair and blue eyes,then I have no objection.Highest concentration of people [in the old world] with Blonde Hair and Blue Eyes is in Europe.They might have originated from any part of Europe.It's fine with me.Doesn't matter if they originated from North,South,East,West or Centre of Europe.

We are living in a globalising world Sharrukin.People learn from one another.Even in the present era of IPR and Copyrite laws people plagiarise.After some time all knowledge is open for genral public to use.Take the case of drugs.

There are misconceptions everywhere. 0 and the decimal number system were invented in India.I read in my school textbooks that the decimal number system is 'Arabic Numerals.'

I agree with the 'confusion' bit.

Then let's debunk "Aryan myths".

Old college friend of mine sent me this, I'm not sure if it is accurate.  The carvings of these Persians look very N. European to me. - gens

"Indian depictions of Persians as Nordics and mixed types

At the time when the Greek writer Xenophon praised what he called "tall beautiful Persian women" (during the 6th century BC), the Persian envoys to India were depicted in still existent paintings in the Ajanta caves outside Bombay as light skinned, blue eyed and blond, or dark skinned and blue eyed with a fair beard. (Ujflvy, L'Anthropologie, vol. ii., 1900). This is the first tangible sign that the Indo-European Persians had started mixing with the darker natives of their land. By the fourth century, this process had spread dramatically to where only a very few of the ruling class could still claim pure Indo-European ancestry.

Alexander Sarcophagus

Colored engravings on the famous Alexander Sarcophagus (also known as the "Sarcophagus of Sidon" - because it was found in Sidon - today in the Archaeological Museum in Istanbul), dating from 310 BC, show a number of Persian warriors as having light eyes and hair with fair or red mustaches.

Left:The Alexander Sarcophagus, circa 310 BC. Archaeological Museum, Istanbul. Also known as the Sarcophagus of Sidon, the city in which it was first found. Right: Details from the Alexandrian Sarcophagus: two Persian heads from the time of Alexander the Great. Both are Nordic sub-racial types, and the originals are color painted with fair hair and blue eyes.

Finally the already largely mixed race Persians were to be overrun by the new White force in the region: the Indo-European Macedonians under Alexander the Great in a series of battles between 334 and 331 BC.

Culture

The Persians built vast and very good roads for the efficient administration of their huge empire, but are probably best remembered for their religion called Zoroastrianism. Founded by a prophet named Zarathustra, the basic religious concept of a never ending battle between good and evil supernatural powers, was later plagiarized by the early Christians and worked into the biblical New Testament (the concepts of heaven and hell are not mentioned at all in the Christian Old Testament).

Whites in the Middle East Submerged

The fall of the Persian Empire marks the end of the great majority White civilizations in the Near East. By this time virtually all of the settlements in the greater region had lost whatever racial homogeneity they once had, and were to larger or smaller degrees societies comprised of a plethora of mixed races, producing the wide and varied physiognomy visible to this day in the region - a mix of Semitic and original White stock. From the time of the fall of the Persian Empire however, the near East ceased to be an area which was majority occupied by peoples who could claim to be White in the original racial sense of the word."

That reads as though it is from the March of the Titans which was written by racists and is backed by no sources.  The Near East has never been majority white, that article is a load of bullsh*t.  I have yet to see these paintings in the Ajanta caves so I can't comment.

And it is no requirement for one to come from Northern Europe if they have blond hair or blue eyes, and I do know Iranians with such features. I suggest, however, that you read Xenophon's description of Cyrus the Great, the first Achaemenid emperor. And it is certainly no requirement to be Northern European to be tall. Iranians are still tall.

"Both are Nordic sub-racial types, and the originals are color painted with fair hair and blue eyes. "

No they are not nordic, they could be slavic too but since they are depicting Iranians, we'll have to say that they are Iranic like most other Iranians. And the originals are not painted.

Xenophon wrote in the early 4th century BC.

They were not Persians, they were local Buddhist monks of a later period, and that their alleged "northern European look" is merely subjective. Your source is very dated.

A complete misinterpretation of evidence.

That presupposes that the Persians were of recent arrival.  The available evidence suggests, at least a millennium of occupation, from the beginning of the Iranian Iron Age, c. 1400 BC.

There is simply no evidence of such an assertion.  The middle east had always been Mediterranean.  All manner of anthropological and genetic studies shows that the Middle East in all eras of modern human occupation, remained as it is today - non-European.  On the other hand, the evidence shows that the earliest modern inhabitants of Europe came from the Middle East.  Even if northern Europeans successfully invaded the Middle East, they would have been assimilated quite quickly.

Perhaps in the past Iranians may have looked more European than what they do now, even today some do. But dont get your Iranian race of today mixed up with the Persian race of the past because you know theres been a heavy mix of Arab blood. Racially Italians are White/Med/Europeans. As for Greeks i dont know any full blooded Greeks, only half Greek/English/German etc and they just look "European".

If im wrong put some pics up of Iranians or direct me to a website where i can see everyday Iranians. Or the difference between Arabs and Persians (pictures)

As for the Blonde haired Blue eyed "Aryan race", that is Nazi propaganda. But hey you find some pretty hot untermensch chicks with blonde hair and Blue eyes

Would it really be so mind boggling if theyre were Blonde haired Blue eyed Middle Easterners, were all Caucasoids. We all fit into the same broader racial group anyway.

Isnt it funny this Turkish hero doesnt even look Turkish

People with Arab admicture are only prominent in the South and South West.  If you want to know what ancient Persians looked like, refer to Xenophon's description of Cyrus and Aminianus Marcellinus' description of the Sassanids, he described them as very varied but prominently black haired and olive skinned - much like today - surprise, surprise.

Alternatively look at this depiction of the battle of Issus:

Iran only changed its name to get in the good books of Hitler. So you show me a painting from god knows when too prove your point of how Persians looked in the past. I was under the impression than when you adopted Islam  *good stuff* the Arabs made the women theirs.

WRONG!!

Iran has not been Arabized racially, or ethnically. Only culturally raped by Islam.

Europeaners ARE NOT Aryans. They are Indo-European, but NOT Aryans. Some may have small amounts of Aryan blood (AKA Ukraine) but none are majority Aryan, the closest descendants of Aryans are modern day Iranians.

read the genetics here

http://www.parsaworld.com/Anthropology/Genetics.html - http://www.parsaworld.com/Anthropology/Genetics.html

as you can see we're closer to Italians than even some other near eastern groups.

And the Aryans have no connection with Europe historically. Aryans originated in Iran or Central Asia/Afghanistan read it here

http://www.parsaworld.com/bastan/FABastan.html - http://www.parsaworld.com/bastan/FABastan.html

oh and you want some pictures.... here you go

modern Iranian

Kuroush

oh and differences between Iranians and Arabs.

well that's difficult because Arab can mean a variety of people, and some, like the Lebanese, are descendants of the Phoenicians not the original Arabs.

But comparing to Iranians to Arabs (strictly speaking of gracilized mediterranean type of the Arabian peninsula) here are some differences. Remember we are the same race as Arabs so it's NOT like you can  100% tell the difference EVERY time. But most Iranians will tell you that they generally know whether or not the guy is Iranian or Arab, we just know. Im sure it is the same for Arabs. Here are a few differences.

• Iranians have more body and facial hair
• Iranians have more square and longer jaws
• Iranians will generally have more prominent cheek bones and chins
• Iranians will typically have a different head forms (higher cranial vault)
• Iranians generally have a higher incidence of light eyes and hair, albeit still rare
• Iranians are generally stockier and have a denser, heavier bone structure

I wasnt trying to say Aryans=Nordics, i didnt mention Aryans anywhere. I didnt even say Persians=Aryan.
Correct me if im wrong but doesnt Aryan=White??????? Ive never looked into it. But what exactly is Aryan supposed to signify??? Is Aryan just a Germanised name or was it adopted from Persia. Because you only adopeted Iran because of Hitler, before that ive never heard of the term Aryan.

Iran has been called Iran (in its current form) internally since the time of the Sassanids, before that, the Achaemenids called it Aiyranem (Iran).  See the connection?  If that isn't enough for you then refer to the Shahnameh, written in the 10-11th century. 

During the conquest, Iran's population was between 8-12 million, do you seriously suggest that 4-6 million women were taken by the Arabs?  There are records that show they took 40,000 as slaves, but they were taken into Arab lands.  It is stupid to say that there was no intermarriage, but nothing to the extent that would change the appearance of Iranians.

I don't agree at all with that, maybe you are describing people you have experienced?  I have been to Tehran and Kermanshah fairly recently and the younger men are now between 5'10-6+, I am 6'3, in Shiraz people fit your bill more.

ok thanks for the info Zagros.

Aryan does NOT equal white European.  The Aryans were a group of nomads from central asia/south Russia that settled into Northern India, Afghanistan and Iran.  The name Iran means "Land of the Aryans."  Iranians have been referring to themselves as Aryans ever since ancient times.  Iran has been around since ancient times too.  The West knew Iran as Persia(Greek name for Iran).  In the 1930s, the Shah of Iran told everyone to start calling Persia by its true name, Iran.  Yes he did this because he wanted to ally himself with the Germans. 

After the Allies  defeated Germany, Russia, Britain and US invaded Iran, removed the Shah of Iran and put his son in his place.

Aryan is not German.  Europeans have tried to refer to themselves as Aryans for many reasons.  The Germans, wanting a reason to invade the vast oil fields in Central Asia, used this as an excuse. 

Where did I mention height? I was only refering to general differences in comparison to Arabs. In terms of height Iranians are slightly taller than Arabs on average, but not by much so that is insignificant.

And I am not Shirazi, most of my experience in Iran come from Tehran.

He did not ally with Germany, he was only on freindly terms with Germany and it was because Germany was a counter to the British and Russians, two enemies of Iran and Iranians, the British to this day..

blah blah blah

um...  That was not necessary.

A formal warning will be issued.

Reza Shah did NOT ally with Germany to become Nazi/fascist state. He did so to lessen the influence of Britain and Russia. If he did not lessen their strength they would've tried to take over all of Iran.

And the British and Russians faked that he joined the Nazis to create an excuse for kicking Reza Shah out so they could manipulate Iran's oil.

Mossadegh, like Reza Shah, tried to nationalize oil, which is why USA kicked him out and put Reza's puppet son in power.

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Most of your experince probably comes from som1 else too. Irn4life maybe? If you are welcome back, if not, then this never happened.

Dude, what are you talking about, seriously.

My experiences are from people I've met (quite a few), pictures, and studies ( C.S. Coon, Henry Fields, etc)

Hitler's use of the term "Aryan" had a long developmental history behind it.  It all started when Europeans became familiar with the ancient literatures of Iran and India.  They were impressed by how their languages were similar to European ones and by how advanced their grammars were.  They thought that the languages of these peoples were perhaps close to the ancestor of all "Indo-European" languages and postulated a homeland in Eurasia.   They discovered the name "Aryan" in the literatures of these peoples and applied the name to the earliest Indo-Europeans.   Subsequent studies of linguistics revealed that the European languages were older, and with the developement of historiographical studies, anthropology, and the growing influence of nationalism, some "scholars" were coming to the conclusion that Europe was the origin of the "Aryans". 

Some early notions of anthropology put the Nordic at the top of human evolutionary tree.  In the study of history, some "scholars" were finding supposed references to "Nordics" in the writings of the ancients.  Special attention was paid to the Roman historian Tacitus who considered the Germans as being pure.  Germany was never conquered by other races, but instead it was the pure German who conquered other races.  This idea was growing in popularity with the pubs of Germany and Britain.  In Germany the idea entered the political realm.  If the German was "pure" he must have been originally a "pure" Aryan.  All other peoples speaking IE languages have diluted the Aryan blood. 

Enter the Nazi Party.  It was they who wanted to put these notions as a matter of policy to ensure the purity (and therefore, the superiority) of their "race".  The "Final Solution" was the terrible result of these policies.

Originally posted by shayan well all i know is that there is nothing northern european about me. I have dark brown hair and brown eyes, my skin is not dark but that is the only aspect that could be nordic (and my hight) Im 100% shirazi and a proud one

So no Northern Europeans have dark hair and dark eyes *sarcasm*

If you think so I viewed a thread once of hot Persians and buddy i was HORRIFIED.

Ok i had a look around there appears to be some hotties, i was wrong.