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Do you think Iraq should be cut up ethnicly?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Intellectual discussions
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1418
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Topic: Do you think Iraq should be cut up ethnicly?
Posted By: AssyrianGuy7
Subject: Do you think Iraq should be cut up ethnicly?
Date Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 16:05
Vote!!!

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"Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"
(Isaiah 19:23-25)



Replies:
Posted By: sephodwyrm
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 00:27

I voted no because I feel that I have to support the minority voice.

If Iraq is cut up ethnically, we'll have new breed of hatred between the races, new debts to settle, new people to kill. And plus, its harder for the US to make deals with multiple ethnicities in their Oil grubbing ambitions.



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"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11


Posted By: AssyrianGuy7
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 08:02
what they can do is share the oil. split it evenly

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"Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"
(Isaiah 19:23-25)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 08:28
A federation would be the best idea I think. If that's not possible it should be split up.

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Posted By: Romano Nero
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 08:32

Splitting it up, as it happened in the Balkans with Yugoslavia, would only serve the interest of the Great Powers who wish to have a say in the oil business and the general geopolitical makeup.

Small time nationalism is what keeps countries at bay, obedient to the suggestions of the "mighty protectors" and "liberators". Don't fall for that, my friend. Assyrian in Iraq aren't even that many to claim their own territory - the Kurds are many, but Turkey would jump to the sound of the word "Kurdistan"

UNITY is what might give the small-time nations a saying in the great, globalized world. Fragmentation and "let's have each one his own tiny-little-country" is only watering the mill of the Powerful Imperialists. Why do you think Europe is getting togher? In a decade all the countries that split up from Yugoslavia, shall join together again under the EU umbrella.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

 



Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 12:25
They already are slipt up. It was a British political invention that these groups are together. Of course, the oil would make a separation difficult.

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Posted By: sephodwyrm
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 13:14
No. It is British intervention that caused them to split up again. They used to be in a big Islamic dominion before hand.

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"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 14:16
There were 3 seperate provinces under ottoman rule, with their own degree of automny. The Brits dumped them in one country with centralised rule, and from there the problems started.

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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: sephodwyrm
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 19:14

Can you at least provide some sources? I thirst for information and not one liners.
Btw, don't consider me an information source about this. All I know is that the Osmans still constitute a central unifying force and dumping them in 1 country with centralized rule seems odd for the Britsh. What is this country? How did it all break up again?

From what I have been taught I know that the Osman Empire was carved up into mandates and even Turkey have to fight for their own existence.



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"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11


Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 04:31

Originally posted by sephodwyrm

that the Osman Empire was carved up into mandates and even Turkey have to fight for their own existence.

 

Ottoman empire was comprised of many different people. It started being "carved up" when these people started demanding liberty and separation from the Ottoman empire that was condemning them to stagnation (economical, social, scientific etc). French revolution has played it's part since it inspired many revolution leaders same as industrial revolution. The upper classes wanted to follow the examples of Europe in economical development.

Anyway this is a subject by itself, the bottom-line is that the Ottoman Empire (or what was left of it) was divided to pieces according to the majority of the populations, by the victors of WW1. The country that emerged (Turkey) managed to salvage some pieces back (Smyrna region and East Thrace from the Greeks, Armenia from Armenians, Kurdistan from the Kurds...)and create a more or less homogenous population basis for the new state.

 

 



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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 16:59
All I know is that the Osmans still constitute a central unifying force and dumping them in 1 country with centralized rule seems odd for the Britsh.


Odd?
Have you looked at a map of Africa lately?


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 19:14
thats just as much the French and the Belgians as the British, indeed we have seen some of that intelligent policy in Rwanda.  If peopel want to be bigots give them seperate states, if people are intelligent enough to work together despite the fact that group X has a bigger nose than group Y have one state, a case b case basis if you will.

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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: mongke
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 21:58
I voted yes.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 00:35
i voted no but it really does not matter... it is already on the brink of civil war, the only thing standing in its way is america... splitting it is the opposite of what we want.


Posted By: AssyrianGuy7
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 16:25
well at least they can give the assyrians an administrative region where they can govern themselfs and still be apart of iraq

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"Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"
(Isaiah 19:23-25)


Posted By: AssyrianGuy7
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 21:15
any comments!

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"Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"
(Isaiah 19:23-25)


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 05:24

No

not logical

if that is the correct thing to do then you will find 10000 countries in this world



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 08:59
Originally posted by azimuth


if that is the correct thing to do then you will find 10000 countries in this world


6000 to be correct (if language determin nationality)

If you you say Iraq should be splitted up that doesn't say other countries should be splitted up as well. It's a bit lame if you can prevent or end a war by splitting Iraq up, but don't do it "because otherwise thousands of other countries will declare independence".


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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 09:54
Why shouldn't we call Iraqis as Assyrian Muslims? In Sassanid period (and even early Islamic), western province of the empire was called Asuristan which means land of Assyrians, we can't say that most of Assyrian were disappeared when Arabs conquered their land but there can be a simple possibility that majority of them converted to Islam like Persian Zoroastrians.

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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 10:16

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Why shouldn't we call Iraqis as Assyrian Muslims? In Sassanid period (and even early Islamic), western province of the empire was called Asuristan which means land of Assyrians, we can't say that most of Assyrian were disappeared when Arabs conquered their land but there can be a simple possibility that majority of them converted to Islam like Persian Zoroastrians.

when you said call Iraqis as Assyrian Muslims , you meant all Iraqis??!!  since not all of them are Assyrians  well i dont know the %  but it is small.

and what will the name changing do or help what is happinig?

 

 



Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 11:51

Yes all Iraqis, If Iraqi means Assyrian Muslim, of course it is obvious that we can't say that all people of Iraq are Iraqis (Assyrian Muslims) because there are Christian Assyrians too, it became complex!  I mean if the majority of Iraqis are muslims, it can't be a reason to call them Arab!



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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 12:00

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

[QUOTE=azimuth]
6000 to be correct (if language determin nationality)

If you you say Iraq should be splitted up that doesn't say other countries should be splitted up as well. It's a bit lame if you can prevent or end a war by splitting Iraq up, but don't do it "because otherwise thousands of other countries will declare independence".

language is not the only thing to determin nationality

for an example Arabic speaking countries are 21 country with more than three religions

so it is not only language  

add to that religion even with the same language

so it is language , religion , culture and more important these days Money

for example the rich parts dont want to share with poor once

 

 

 



Posted By: pytheas
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 12:10
We could ask the same question of Afghanistan.  Once again, we can place blame on the imperial colonizing powers of the 18th-20th centuries for the mess there.  The British and Russians have long fought for control over Central Asia, South Asia, and the Middle East.  Now it's the American's turn to try to force our cookie-cutter ideologies on cultures that have always been based upon tribal allegiences, NOT nationality, ethnicity/race, or any other modern notion.  The sense of nation is a Modern construt and should not be used as an excuse to force widely different populations together into one nation.  Even the "greatest democratic nation", the U.S. has had a turbulent 229 year history, attempting to force vastly differnt people together, even if the government had to commit genocide every once in a while, as long as it was done with the NATION's interests at heart.  The West (primarily the U.S.) will be regarded in history as an imperial nation.  I have strong convictions that the idea of NATION is a dying ideology, just as the 3rd World starts to catch on to the notion, the West is scratching the itching, festering, antiquated ideology of NATION.  Case in point, look at the construction of NAFTA, the EU, the AU (African Union), and other economically-driven systems.  The once great cure for regional strife and ethnic fear/hate is MONEY.  Lots of it!  Former enemies become the best boon companions, as long as theie pockets and bellies are full.  That said, I voted YES for spliting Iraq up.  Iraqi Kurdistan has basicaaly been it's own autonomous region (with the assistance of U.S. controlled no-fly zones) for the past decade.

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Truth is a variant based upon perception. Ignorance is derived from a lack of insight into others' perspectives.


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2004 at 02:28
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Yes all Iraqis, If Iraqi means Assyrian Muslim, of course it is obvious that we can't say that all people of Iraq are Iraqis (Assyrian Muslims) because there are Christian Assyrians too, it became complex!  I mean if the majority of Iraqis are muslims, it can't be a reason to call them Arab!

Arabs are not Assyrian muslims, Arabs are Arabs and Assyrians are Assyrians

Arabs speak arabic as their first language

puls the Assyrians are less than 5% of the Iraq population

as per Wikipedia, Iraq Ethnic Groups as follows:

Ethnic groups: Arab 75%-80%, Kurdish 15%-20%, Turkoman, Assyrian or other 5%

Religions: Muslim 97% (Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3%

Languages: Arabic, Kurdish (official in Kurdish regions), Assyrian, Armenian

 

as per Encarta Encyclopedia

About 77 per cent of the population of Iraq are Arabs. Kurds, dwelling in the highlands of northern Iraq, constitute about 19 per cent of the population. The other significant minority, the Turkomans, tend to dominate retail trading in the cities of Mosul and Kirkūk.

 

 

so  Iraq is not just Assyrian Muslims or Assyrian christans

they are not even a majority in Iraq.

another point is that Arabic is for people who are arabs not who are muslims

since arabic speaking muslims are only 15% of all muslim popution in the world.

there is people who call them selfs ( Arab faris) Persian Arabs who live in the iranian coast of the Gulf.

 



 



Posted By: AssyrianGuy7
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2004 at 08:17
There are was more assyrians in iraq then said. Many of the assyrians in
the kurdish area are considered kurdish. All assyrian villages in the
kurdish region are counted as kurdish villages. Until the iraqi elections
no one will know who many assyrians thier are and how many kurds thier
realy are. how is thier only 800,000 assyrians when thier are more then 4
million assyrian (chaldean and syrians) church members.   since the
church bombings 3 months ago more then 60,000 assyrians are known to
have fled to syria. i said arabs are "muslim assyrians" because they
consider assyrians as "christian arabs" and/or "christian kurds".

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"Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"
(Isaiah 19:23-25)


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 09:14

 

they are part of Iraq  and there voice must be heared

but they still like less than 10%

wont make sense to call all Iraq ( Assyrian Muslim )

 

 



Posted By: AssyrianGuy7
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 15:59
Originally posted by azimuth

wont make sense to call all Iraq ( Assyrian Muslim )

It also doesn't make sense to call assyrians "christian arabs" or " christian kurds" 



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"Blessed be my people, Egypt, and the work of my hands, Assyria, and my special possession, Israel!"
(Isaiah 19:23-25)


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 01:14

 i agree

they are all Iraqis under one nation which consist of ethnic groups like everywhere.

IMO(In My Opinion) Assyrians groups are  Assyrians  who have different types of religions, just call them assyrian unless they want to be called by each religion.

 

 

 



Posted By: warlord
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 01:22
Iraq should be divided. It's better for the different communities to float or sink separately than sink together.

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Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 01:39
What about a fedaratioN?

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Posted By: warlord
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 01:42

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

What about a fedaratioN?

A fully federal structure with complete autonomy for regions would be good. But that would require leaders to behave as statesmen. It may otherwise lead to administrative paralysis, as the regions fight each other while a weak center looks on.



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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 01:43

Originally posted by warlord

Iraq should be divided. It's better for the different communities to float or sink separately than sink together.

 

what about India?

how many different communites does it has?

wont (( Float and Sink )) rule apply to it?

 

 



Posted By: warlord
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 01:53
Originally posted by azimuth

Originally posted by warlord

Iraq should be divided. It's better for the different communities to float or sink separately than sink together.

what about India?

how many different communites does it has?

wont (( Float and Sink )) rule apply to it?

x

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Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 21:19
Originally posted by warlord

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

What about a fedaratioN?

A fully federal structure with complete autonomy for regions would be good. But that would require leaders to behave as statesmen. It may otherwise lead to administrative paralysis, as the regions fight each other while a weak center looks on.


I think it is too late for federal state. Federal state has to be founded peacefully.
Other consideration is that a state, to be viable, needs a population with common interests. These can be economical or political or both. I don't think the religion or culture plays  the predominant role. Good example is Switzerland.



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