Arabain Gulf old Maps?!
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Post-Classical Middle East
Forum Discription: SW Asia, the Middle East and Islamic civilizations from 600s - 1900 AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17518
Printed Date: 21-May-2024 at 04:10
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Arabain Gulf old Maps?!
Posted By: azimuth
Subject: Arabain Gulf old Maps?!
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 06:50
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ok to all members no need to get into flam wars on the terms, if you want to do so go to wikipedia persian gulf name dispute not here.
here i want to discuss some maps i saw in this site http://www.arabiangulfmaps.com/ - http://www.arabiangulfmaps.com/
i myself didnt know that there were old maps specially european used the term Arabian Gulf, although i read in an online newspaper once that the term was used long time ago in reference to the body of water between Iran and Arabian penensula.
the maps shown in that site were drawn by several historical figures such as Mercator (1512-1594), Hindios and john speed (1552-1629).
below is some of the maps collections from the same site
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Persian_Gulf - ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 08:06
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Well, the fact of the matter is that there are two UN directives on the name of the Gulf being Persian, one from 1974 and one in 1981/2. I do not know the motive for the UAE in demanding its name be changed and bribing previously reputable organisations like the National Geographic and various British institutions in renaming the Gulf. Also a new laughable development has been UAE companies ceasing trade with Iran due to the use of the correct name which in turn led to bans of UAE products to Iran imprinted with the false name.
Even Saudi maps from 40+ years ago use the term Khalij al Farsi - Persian Gulf. This Arabian Gulf nonsense is a new phenomenon and a fabrication, like those maps - if such maps existed they would have been used many years ago since this dispute is about 30 years old - How about we see pictures of the original maps? Then they can also be carbon dated and checked for authenticity by the appropriate body - since petrodollars seem to buy a lot in the West these days, including academic integrity. -- I think the name of the Gulf of Oman should be changed to the Gulf of Hormuz and the Arabian Sea should be changed to the historically accurate Sea of Iran. Just kidding - but to Iranians and every serious academic this is how silly the attempts at renaming the Persian Gulf are. ------------- |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 08:37
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so about the topic, you think those maps are fake!!
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 08:50
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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 09:47
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ok do you have proofs that these maps are fake or just an assumption, as i said i too havnt seen those maps before but that doesnt make them fake just because you or me dont know about their existance, what if they are real and the term isnt "new"and that gulf called with different names through history? also many iranians are very sensitive about the name that they start making false accusations and name calling without any proofs or evidences. such as the one arguing with me in wikipedia stating that there were no other civilizations on the coast of the gulf but the Persian civilization and he says this is not nationalisim, how sad.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 10:49
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I don't have anything to do with wikipedia. You cannot present maps that look like they have been coloured in with crayonnes at elementary school and demand that I prove them to be fake. You must prove that they are genuine, the burden of proof lies firmly on you the advocate's shoulders.
Simple really. If they are real and a new discovery, then they have been discovered from something. I wish to see that something, in this case pictures of the original maps, which presumably exist and it would be interesting to see what is written. Otherwise, they are no more than a modern invention commissioned by the Sheikhs, since there is no historical source to them. A really funny thing happened here a while ago, there was history programme whose producers were obviously in the pocket of the Sheikhs; they showed a map of the Persian Gulf and the narrator, Adam Hart-Davis referred to it as the Arabian Gulf, contradicting his own map which had it labelled as the Persian Gulf! I had a field day with them by email. I know why the UAE is so keen to change the name, because it improves their position in their claim on the Iranian islands of Abu Mussa and the Greater and Lesser Tonbs which Saddam promised to the UAE upon his victory which never came in his self proclaimed, "second Ghadassiye" in return for money, which the UAE obliged. http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=arabghahremansri9.jpg"> 
"Ghahreman e Ghadassiye!!! her her" "Champion of Ghadassiye!!! ha ha" At least some soldiers had a sense of humour in the imposed war. ------------- |
Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 11:20
Do you have proofs that these maps are NOT fake? I think you are too sensitive about the name, so why should you grub out an old theme like this? and don't tell me you are not a nationalist!!! |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 11:53
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no not sensitive at all i just found that site and it was new to me too, so wanted to discuss it, if you didnt read my first post i did mention i dont want to make this into flame war because of the term, and i wanted to discuss these maps and zargos stated that they are fake and continued with a conspiracy theory about uae changing facts .
anyway i still not in the mood to argue about terms , i want to talk about these maps in that site.
and did a little search and found that there is another site not arabic, http://www.betzmaps.com/index.html - http://www.betzmaps.com/index.html and its about old maps..
and found this map http://www.betzmaps.com/AS-155.html - http://www.betzmaps.com/AS-155.html this one of the maps in the site i put in the first post
still fake?  -------------
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 12:33
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I have just done some research also and it appears that the naming was down to the cartographers' discretion and in these two cases they used the incorrect name, since maps dating before this era also used Sinus Persicus. Sinus Arabicus was the name usually given to the Red Sea, these appear as the only examples which terms the usual sinus Persicus as Sinus Arabicus.
So, maybe two historical maps use the term Arabian Gulf incorrectly, there are about another 20 others that use Persian Gulf half of which predate these maps. Most notably a caliphate era map from the 9th century calling it the Bahr Fars (Persian Sea in Arabic!). I say incorrectly becuase Arabian Gulf was the name for the Red Sea. So what was the point in raising this dead issue? ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 12:57
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This is just sad, copy of an 1851 map at Sheikh Saeed House desecrated by the UAE authorities who seem to have a problem with the word Persian.
Shame: http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=800pxpersiangulfdubaimuni9.jpg">  ------------- |
Posted By: Xshayathiya
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:00
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Here's a map of scotland from 1641
That map labels the area currently known as Kuwait as "PARS".  ------------- "I like rice. Rice is great if you are hungry and want 2000 of something." - Mitch Hedberg |
Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:06
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It is off topic. If we (persians and arabs) want to have a peaceful coexistence, it's better don't try or start such a nonsence issues. there are still so much hatred between our nations (that I don't support it). It is better solve them instead of opening new problem-maker issues. ------------- Anfører |
Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:09
Yes, and that show how much accurate is their claims. ------------- Anfører |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:29
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there are more than two maps zagros
and assuming that they put the term incorrectly isnt logical specially when they have both the red sea and persian/arabian gulf at the same map. like the one below from a different person.
 add to that that the Gulf in the map had two names "the Sea Elcatif" and "Arabian Gulf"
Elcatif is a city in saudi arabia.
and the red sea "the sea of mecca" and "Arabian gulf"
http://www.raremaps.com/cgi-bin/map-builder.cgi?Asia+Middle-East+15328 - http://www.raremaps.com/cgi-bin/map-builder.cgi?Asia+Middle-East+15328
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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:32
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so from that the term Arabian Gulf is not an invention of the 1960s, it did exist before that for the Persian gulf.
some articles in wikipedia needs modification
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also we need to add more to the terms that gulf had through history
1- lower sea
2- the sea from where the sun rises
3-the bitter sea
4- the persian gulf
5-the arabian gulf
6- the sea elcatif
7- the basra gulf
7 names so far and the most famouse and widely used now offcourse is the persian gulf, arabian gulf started to be used again after 1960s by arab countries.
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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 16:23
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Dude you got your answer that map is unaccurate. So what is this nonsence. ------------- Anfører |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:45
Azimuth, what is your point? You are trying to claim that the original name was the Arabian Gulf? I am afraid it wasn't, the vast majority of historical maps and sources refer to the body of water as the Persian Gulf, not to mention TWO UN directives!
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 04:46
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Ok, according to this map, we call the Persian Gulf as Arabian Gulf but you should not call Egypt as "Jumhuriyah Misr al-'Arabiyah" but Pars. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 05:28
Cyrus, Pars, is the second word of the sentence "Africae Pars", wich mean African Portion  Here i must go with our persian fellows azimuth, as show Zagros there is a lot of map very old wich show "Persian" and not "Arab" I'm searching the opinion of the romans (Ptolemy) but i can't read clearly the words of his map (there are several on the net) Edit: Well this map is a Renaissance representation of the world according with Ptolemy, say clearly Persicus Sinus, that is, Persian Gulf (contrary to the Red Sea, wich is called "Arabicus Sinus") If somebody have doubts, can read the work of Ptolemy "Geographica", where is all the information. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/PtolemyWorldMap.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/PtolemyWorldMap.jpg ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 06:49
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lol, as I mentioned http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=564&PN=1v - here , Persia (Persian Pars), Parthia (Persian Part), Scythia (Persian Saka) really mean Portion, Part and Section. -------------
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Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 07:14
I don't understand very well what do you want to say, that Persia derive from Pars and Parthia from Part?  I only know that in the map of Azimuth "Pars" is the continuation of the phrase "African pars", and this phrase is broken by the legend "Turcici Imperii Imago", and that you said "look, Egypt is Pars", when is clear a mistake of understanding of you not of the map, like you insinuate making a comparation with "Sinus Arabic" wich is a correct name according with the map. What so confused paragraph i have writen now  ------------- |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 12:05
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i dont know what made you all ( Zagros, sirius99, Cyrus and Ikki) ASSUMED that iam trying to say that the correct name is Arabian gulf and Persian Gulf is false ??
where did i point that ?
my point is cleary stated in my previous post below
to whom who are not familier with the issue,
there has been and still lots of tension on the internet between iranians and anybody who uses the term Arabian Gulf as a name for the gulf between Iran and Arabian peninsula, they have the right to defend what they want BUT they went far and tring to change historical facts by denying the existance of Other names the gulf had though history!! also claiming that the term Arabian Gulf is a new invention made in the 1960s.
my whole point is that the persian/arabian gulf had and still have different names and denying them is denying Facts and sinking in a baseless nationalisitc propaganda.
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in an older thread i also did put my position of the terms http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6127 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6127
and that was before knowing that that gulf been called Arabian before 1960, yet still my point is the same.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:17
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Of course they are accurate. The whole gulf name stuff is just another attempt to distort Arab history. There are people that have been trying to destroy Arab history by trying to show that Arabs only got out of their tents 50 years ago and started to spend the oil money and the hush money sheiks received from the US to build big buildings. Arabs have no reason to have any kind of history/heritage complex because Arabs have the longest history in the world going back at least 100000 years ago. In fact Adam and Noah were Arabs themself. Here is the source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs
denying this fact is also sinking in a baseless nationalistic propaganda
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Posted By: Aktufe
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:23
| you're sarcastic right? |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:39
You are right, I made mistake but I just wanted to mention that "Pars" also means "Portion" in Persian language.
Azimuth, we know most of the peoples who live in both the southern and northern coasts of the Persian gulf are Arabs, so it is not strange if they call it "Arabian Gulf" but the strange thing is that they expect other peoples do the same and ignore the historical facts and evidences. -------------
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Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:44
ah OK, i understand now your point, i thought that you was saying that the original name was Arabic Gulf and that is not the matter, the question is that the Persian Gulf is called too Arabic at least from certain time and some people. Well, personally i think that Persian is more acurate, but that don't exclude the fact that Arabic is a real name and should be considerated, like many others places of the world in the same situation, think about Germany wich have a lot of names. But, an important "but" to this if: if we are talking about a name born 40 years ago, i can't agree because will be clearly a question of nationalism not custom. ------------- |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:46
Another indoeuropean connection?? Interesting never hear about it. ------------- |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:53
You can be sure about one thing: since the rise of the Islam, of all the non europeans civilizations, there is no one, hear carefully, no one other wich we in Europe study with greatest interest than arabic, and expanding, islamic in general; understand that when i studied in the university the manuals about Middle Age had 1/3 for the islamic cultures, 1/2 if we are talking about the cultures of Near East in Ancient Times. Leave that victimist actitude and don't begin any nationalist flame war in this forum, please. ------------- |
Posted By: Xshayathiya
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 21:11
umm....uh.....so Arabic history begins in the Paleolithic period, before humanity developed language? Very interesting. ------------- "I like rice. Rice is great if you are hungry and want 2000 of something." - Mitch Hedberg |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 15:19
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These maps are forgeries. All the texts that go along with these maps say Persian Gulf, a fact that the creator of that site leaves out on purpose. This is especially true of Mercator, who uses the term Persian Gulf in all of his text. Look at the map dated 1740 by Jacques Nicolas Bellin, it clearly says Persian Gulf in the bottom left corner, and this idiot put it on his "Arabian Gulf Maps" webpage... This is just another rich Arab racist Sheikh with money to throw around. That site is misleading and full of forgeries. The creator obviously leave out key facts on purpose, such as the fact that Mercator used the term Persian Gulf in all of his texts, not Arabian Gulf. ------------- |
Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 02:02
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these maps are not made by mercator alone, and i already gave you other sites ( not arabic) which have some of the maps on that site.
these maps are facts as the other names the gulf had before and after Persian Gulf being used.
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Posted By: shinai
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 18:00
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Most of the people around persian gulf are arabs even in Iranian sides.So Arabs also have the same right as Iranian do to call the gulf whatever they like. There is no need to be so sensetive. There are many places with two diffrent names. |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 23:07
Thats not the point, and there are several things wrong with your statement. a) yes, I'm sure there are Arabs on both sides of the Persian Gulf, and it goes the other way around, there are also Persians and Persian descendants on both sides of the Persian Gulf. Infact, the number of people of Iranian or Persian descent on the Arabian side of the Persian Gulf probably outnumber the Arabs that live on the Iranian side. This goes to show that it is not where a people live that decides names. For example, why is the Indian Ocean called the Indian Ocean, why is the Arabian Sea called the Arabian Sea, and why is the Gulf of Oman called the Gulf of Oman? b) International bodies of water are not subjected to the rules of local bodies of water. The UN says that when two or more countries share a body of water, they can each use whatever name they want and that should be respected. This is the case for the Shatt al-Arab/Arvandrud, where it is owned solely by Iran and Iraq evenly, therefore, each have rights to name it. However, the Persian Gulf is an international body of water, not owned by any one country. International bodies of water are not subject to be named whatever a certain people/country please. If that was so, map makers would be dealing with a chaotic world.
No offense, but these Arab governments have been known to fabricate information along with using their money when it comes to the Persian Gulf. As far as I'm concerned, this map containing one forgery is enough to discredit the entire site, and all of its other maps. ------------- |
Posted By: kajdom
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 00:19
The reality is not that easy. just try change for example gulf of oman or arabian sea to Persian or Iranian sea and you can see their reaction. specially If you trying to convince other nations to call that and use fake maps to back up your claim that gonna blow up whole arabian nation. for other attempt you can change name of Indian ocean to pakistani ocean or african ocean and watch indian reaction. this is natural. |
Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 11:45
Ok Azimuth tell me which one of your claims we should believe?
This:
or this:
You see the problem? now please explain.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 12:02
You have to understand that the Gulf Arabs are trying to change the internationally recognised name of the Persian Gulf for political reasons. They even called it Persian Gulf themselves before their British overlords gave them the task of starting conflict with Iran in the late 60s. The reason why Persian Gulf has stuck is because Persia (as it was known in the West) was the dominant power of the region - in the middle ages there was no Arab state to speak of, so it was natural that the Gulf be referred to as the Persian Gulf by the overwhelming majority of European cartographer and explorers which refers to the country that owned land on both sides of it. So persian Gulf refers to the land and empire of Persia (Iran), not the people of Persia (Persians). That not withstanding, ther eare even older records which refer to the Gulf as Persian such as Ptolemy's maps and, ironically, Caliphate era maps... ------------- |
Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:06
Yes, exactly. There are even some maps showing the Arabian Sea as the Persian Sea, how would these Arabs react if we took their name off of the sea? The bottom line is that this boils down to racism and hatred against Iran. ------------- |