Obsidian swords
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: General World History
Forum Discription: All aspects of world history, especially topics that span across many regions or periods
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19599
Printed Date: 21-May-2024 at 15:55
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Topic: Obsidian swords
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Obsidian swords
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 05:52
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Hi every one who reads this. I was wondering if any one could send me a picture give some information on obsidain swords. I know that thay where used buy some natives but I could not get much on google, thanks
Josh.
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Replies:
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 05:59
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you mean a remnant i a museum or a modern ancient artisitc depiction of it?
------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 06:12
any thing on them im just interested. there like 5 times sharper than a high quality scaple when there sharpend, how cool is that. if anyone could post a picture that would be good to. ------------- |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 07:44
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I cant seem to be able to finds a whole recontructed sword or one remaining in museums if there are any. Just these obsidian blades  ------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 08:03
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Artistic modern depiction of a warrior http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/other/?action=view¤t=JHelguera1D.jpg - http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/other/?action=view¤t=JHelguera1D.jpg ------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 08:08
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And Aztec obsidian blade sword wielding warriors here http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/other/?action=view¤t=aztec4figure08.jpg - http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/other/?action=view¤t=aztec4figure08.jpg Aztec obsidian blade sword here http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/other/?action=view¤t=aztec4figure09.jpg - http://s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/other/?action=view¤t=aztec4figure09.jpg ------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 08:17
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The second pic with the blade could even be reconstructed today ( it probably is) just a carpenter and some obsidian or a similar looking material!
------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 08:57
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No maquahuitl survive today, there are only reproductions ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 07-May-2007 at 10:17
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"Maquahuitl" thats the name they called it ? Do you know the etymology?Cool word for a sword. ------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Athanasios
Date Posted: 08-May-2007 at 17:32
Were these swords that effective? I doubt if this stone was dangerous, even if it was sharpened...
Anyway, as i know the Astec sword , had many pieces of obsidian through it length:
 The eagle warrior on the right, holds an obsidian sword.
A nice depiction of it:
http://www.fox-gieg.com/stuff/retrovirus/178px-Macahuitl.png - http://www.fox-gieg.com/stuff/retrovirus/178px-Macahuitl.png
I have the impression that aztecs were used to make a lot of time to chop a pig back then... ------------- 
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Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 09-May-2007 at 13:00
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Paul, you should show another pic of the blade you knapped. It is quite impressive! ------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 09-May-2007 at 14:57
Your wish is my command,
     ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 09-May-2007 at 15:29
Guys this sword effective or not is mega COOL
------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 05:26
I bet it was, actually. I once cut myself on a natural fracture edge of a piece of flint... It was sharp as you would not believe, with jagged edges for extra tearing power... It was a really ugly gash that took ages to close up again. I imagine a piece that was deliberately shaped to be sharp and dangerous could inflict some real painful damage. ------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 10:26
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Obsidiane is sharper than iron. If you ever cutted yourself with glass already know how dangerous it could be.
Aztecs had special cotton protections for figthing against this kind of weapons and arrows made of the same material. Spaniards found out pretty quickly that the iron protections the had were ineficient and replaced them with the aztec cotton model.
Pinguin
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 10-May-2007 at 14:08
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Spanish armour was much more effective than Aztec. The reason many wore cotton was because steel amrour requires maintenance and the resources weren't available inMexico to do this. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Athanasios
Date Posted: 11-May-2007 at 12:48
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Yes.Sounds pretty strange that a cotton armour could be more effective than an iron one... And really, i can't see how this stone could be more dangerous than a metal sword. Maybe its material(obsidian) when is sharpened could be. Anyway, as i can see, a tactical disadvantage is that you can't manage tip hits with this kind of weapon. -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-May-2007 at 15:13
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Aztec armor it was more effective to stop arrows that was very important for horsemen, of course. I confused things up. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-May-2007 at 15:27
Obsidian is way inferior to steel. It can be sharper though, but sharp is an overated quality in a sword.
There were many kinds of maquahuitl including a halberd version. Some had an additional blade in the tip, so could thrust. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 11-May-2007 at 17:17
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got any pics of that?
------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 12-May-2007 at 11:47
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The first time I tried to knap obsidian was at a workshop last month. I was using a small cobble hammerstone to break off a simple flake and piece of shatter exploded into my thumb.
So, I was the first and only one to draw blood in the class and I accomplished this with my very first attempt...
To reiterate what Aelfgifu said about the their wounds, my tiny thumb puncture bled for what seemed like hours (I was constantly sucking on it so I wouldn't get blood all over my borrowed tools) and it throbbed for few days afterward.
Paul, I am very impressed with your craftsmanship. Those blades are awesome! Maybe with another 10 to 20 years of practice I could knap something close to it...  ------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 12-May-2007 at 12:39
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It took me about 2 years to get up to the standard I am now and I been treading water ever since.
I'd love to know how you gt up to this standard.
http://www.missouritrading.com/images_books/bk3058.jpg - http://www.missouritrading.com/images_books/bk3058.jpg ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 12-May-2007 at 13:35
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The professor I had flintknapped for decades and claims he still has much to learn.
Hopefully (depending on many circumstances), I will go to a one week workshop in Illinois this summer. I was only told about it yesterday so I don't know much about it yet...
I think it's one with Tim Dillard:
http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2001maytimdillardpoints.htm - http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2001maytimdillardpoints.htm ------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-May-2007 at 02:58
| If you want to cut off someone's head or limb, a metal sword is your tool of choice. But if your intent is to hack and maim, disable and capture, the obsidian sword is best. Properly napped, a piece of obsidian can be sharper than any steel edge, a fact used recently in certain delicate surgeries. But in small pieces. Obsidian has a few drawbacks. It has to be re-napped to be sharpened, which usually means that piece now has to be put to a different use because it is smaller. It cant be used in long pieces because of it's inflexible, brittle nature. But it's a whole lot better than a wooden club. |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 15-May-2007 at 06:16
That is so cool... I am thinking of doing a forging workshop this summer...-------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 02:35
Probably not, no. Obsidian is the sharpest cutting edge known to mankind, synthetic or natural - it is much sharper than even precision-manufactured surgical scalpels. Diaz, one of Cortes' companions, wrote that he witnessed a warrior with a maquahuitl sever the head of a horse in a single blow - that's very impressive for any weapon! As far as we know for sure, this weapon did cause massive trauma with a succesful blow, both due to the sharpness of the blades and also because of their unusual arrangement, which likely caused a very large and rough tearing sort of wound, rather than a clean cut. But the maquahuitl has serious flaws. The weapon is very fragile and doesn't last long in combat - obsidian is brittle and shatters easily, and the blades are inset in wood so could come loose. Contact with wood, bone or metal would often destroy the blades. It's also an unusual "sword" in the way the blades are arranged at the edges and not nearly as versatile as a metal blade. Parrying could also destroy the blades, and thrusting was impossible (slashing only). Against steel armour - or even steel swords wielded by unarmoured men - it would be a very poor weapon. Against opponents with light armour who had no steel arms, it would be highly effective - in other words, eminently suited to pre-contact warfare. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 09:26
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Obsidian Urban Legends, I just love them.
Obsidian can be very sharp, but knapping isn't a precise science and any edge will be varied quality along its length, usually with the odd small section maybe sharper than surgical steel but only that small part next to a larger blunter part.
Sharp is an overated quality in a sword, most veteran swordsmen deliberately kept their swords blunt. A blunt sword cuts as well as a sharp one, cutting effectiveness coming more from the blade geometry, design and cutting technique. Continually sharpening a blade wears the edge down and weakens it. Better to spend 30 minute perfecting your swing each night than honing the blade with a grindstone (or knap stone)
Maquahuiltl weren't made of obsidian. It was a favoured material because of the relative ease of working it compared to other knappable material, however flint and chert maquahuitl were equally common, probably dacite too.
The maquahuitl is quite strong. Flint ones stronger than steel. Obsidian ones are likely to damage against steel and chip against hard woods, occaisionally a chunk could be taken off, but completely shattering is difficult. Blunting of the fine edge will be the main problem.
Meso-American glue is very strong, better than superglue, there's little chance of a blade falling out.
Parrying swords blade to blade is a myth of hollywood, all swordsmen are taught to parry with the flat. Not to say in the heat of battle or with a novice swordsman an accidental blade to blade parry won't happen. In those circumstances a Maquahuitl will probably hold up better than a steel sword. A blade may be damaged but the wooden frame and the rest of the blades find. A steel sword may simply snap in half.
There are designs of maquahuitl with obsidian tips that could thrust.
------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 09:44
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Fascinating. Was South America the only place to use obsidian in weapons or were there others?
------------- elenos |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 11:05
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South America? You mean Mesoamerica.
In Peru, for instance, the bronze axe was in common use before contact.
In the jungles the curare darts and the cerbatana (bow pipe) where a lot more deadly than an obsidiane sword.
In Souther South Americas, the balls (boleadoras) could push down a rider with easy, for instance.
Yes, obsidiane swords are a produce of Mesoamerica, not South America.
Pinguin
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Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:48
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Thankyyou for your reply pinqin. Mesoamerican civilization is fascinating for the way in which it developed apart from the rest of the world for such a long time. By Mesoamerica do you mean the civilizations that flourished in the land mass commonly called South America?
------------- elenos |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:52
No, that is not Mesoamerica. 
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Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 20:28
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Thanks edgewaters, good job, again. You have answered my question completely. Until now I was not aware a region called Mezoamerica existed, geography has has never been my strong suit. The region is not in the South American continent but as shown is the connecting land bridge between two continents. ------------- elenos |