Hitler and Germans the laughing stock of History
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: General World History
Forum Discription: All aspects of world history, especially topics that span across many regions or periods
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20879
Printed Date: 17-May-2024 at 22:56
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Hitler and Germans the laughing stock of History
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Subject: Hitler and Germans the laughing stock of History
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 08:35
|
What if objective history and research would prove that Indus Valley Civilization was indeed Aryan (maybe by deciphering the Indus Script) and that it was the Indus Valley people who spread into Europe and Cental Asia and not the other way round. Just imagine that if that would happen, how Hitler and Nazi and to some extent even the German people would become the laughing stock of history. |
Replies:
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 10:54
|
Why do you want to make German people the "laughing stock of history"? Targetting an ethnic group to characterize them as morally degenerate - heck, you'd make Hitler proud.
Germans weren't retarded sadists. They were human beings like anyone else. Under the right conditions, Hitler might have happened anywhere. The Germans paid for the Nazis in blood, shame, and national agony - it's time to let it go and stop visiting the sins of the father on the sons. |
Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 11:34
|
Here here! I'm part German (German-Jewish actually, from Danzig) and I'm fed up with people speaking about the whole German nation as if they were all responsable for what happened in the '30s and '40s. Let's move on, for god's sake... ------------- |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 03:54
|
The German language and the languages of India did indeed come from the same roots. Nothing to laugh about. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 03:48
|
Sorry, i realize now i shouldn't have said that. I should have just kept it to Hitler and the Nazis instead of including the German people into the equation as well. The reason that i overreacted is because it annoys me to hell that the Nazis and their academic cohorts took thousands of years of our history and just credited it to themselves in a single stroke. It still burns me up when i hear neo nazis or a so called ethnically "white" person refer to themselves as Aryan which is an extreme perversion of the noble term Arya of Sansikrit meaning "one of good soul". If Arya did mean what they say it means then Bhudda was an extreme racist as he called his religion "Arya Dharma" which means that his religion was only for people belonging a certain race ironically presently his religion is alive and thriving only in regions which have populations which are not even caucasian, oh how Un-Aryan. Thankfully in Indus Valley Civilization we have the means to objectively refute the Aryan Invasion Theory, not some hocus focus like the "beech" argument. It seems that the invasionist school is in complete denial of any evidence which points to the contrary, they still believe that the chariot wheel was unknown to the Indus valley people despite it not only being one of the most common symbols in the indus valley script but also a strong cultural motif. The only thing which will satisfy them is when the the indus valley script is deciphered and the underlying language is proved to be Aryan. Keep an eye out because in the coming years the picture will get quite clear. P.S. It is not that the Germans of today are angels either. By most accounts of people who know Germans personally, they are of the opinion that German are still very racist and deep down think themselves to be superior to all others. |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 04:43
|
I can understand where you are coming from, but Hitler and the Nazis ruled by force and were not elected by the people. I mind myself getting angry at others whatever their race with they try and take a superior attitude! Of course that is offensive and something we all have to deal with at times. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 05:05
By most accounts, eh? Forgive me for being dubious. |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 05:28
|
"By most accounts, eh? Forgive me for being dubious. " I have a grand uncle who has been living in Germany for about 35 years. My sister is an art student who studies in a reputable art institute and has many foreigner art teachers including Germans and she does talk about the German arrogance. My female cousins also come into contact with Germans and they also say that Germans are generally very racist. My friend who has some German friends tell me that many time that many times Germans do talk about all that racial purity gibberish that so freely used to come out of Nazis in the pre and during world war II days. As you can see that i do have some sources to get some idea about Germans from.
|
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 05:33
So anecdotal gossip from your sister, a couple of cousins and a friend constitutes "most accounts"? Those are some pretty loose standards by which to slander an entire people. |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 05:42
|
"So anecdotal gossip from your sister, a couple of cousins and a friend constitutes "most accounts"? What do you expect me to do go and live there for twenty years just to find out whether they are racist are not? You cannot experience everything for yourselves and most of the time you have to take peoples word for it unless you have some reasons for doubts. And when most people like in this case observe the same thing you have to consider that there maybe some truth to it.
|
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 05:46
If you want to speak knowledgeably it would be a good start.
By that measure, German anti-semites of the 1940s were justified in believing what they did. |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:30
|
I have no personal connection to the German people and for me it would be just another country on the map if not for their active role in distorting our history for their own nationalistic purposes.
And of course you cannot judge a whole people but you can get an idea about some of their cultural views and in this case the idea of Germanic superiority is something which many people who have connection with the German people talk about and not just Asians but also many Europeans.
"By that measure, German anti-semites of the 1940s were justified in believing what they did"
I said unless you have reason for doubt. The Jews were living right in their center for many centuries and if it was me the observation that the Jews were not exactly the Neantheredeal ape man completely lacking in intellect (Eintein was a German jew remember) would be reason enough for me to doubt what the anti-semites were telling.
By the way i think we should get off the topic of German people and just talk about how such big fools hitler and Nazis would look in history if indeed the Aryan Invasion Theory was disproved (which it has every chance of doing so)
|
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:30
|
I have no personal connection to the German people and for me it would be just another country on the map if not for their active role in distorting our history for their own nationalistic purposes.
And of course you cannot judge a whole people but you can get an idea about some of their cultural views and in this case the idea of Germanic superiority is something which many people who have connection with the German people talk about and not just Asians but also many Europeans.
"By that measure, German anti-semites of the 1940s were justified in believing what they did"
I said unless you have reason for doubt. The Jews were living right in their center for many centuries and if it was me the observation that the Jews were not exactly the Neantheredeal ape man completely lacking in intellect (Eintein was a German jew remember) would be reason enough for me to doubt what the anti-semites were telling me.
By the way i think we should get off the topic of German people and just talk about how such big fools hitler and Nazis would look in history if indeed the Aryan Invasion Theory was disproved (which it has every chance of doing so)
|
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:58
Again, on what do you base this? Gossip from your cousins?
Anti-semitic Germans in the forties ignored Einstein in formulating their views on Jews; and you ignore people like Albert Schweitzer in formulating your view on postwar Germans. |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 07:23
|
Hey, i don't want to degenerate this into a racist slugfest. Most of Europe has gotten out of its superiority complex and the Germans are getting out of it too although i feel they are a litle behinde. Anyway my gripe is with Nazis and Hitler and not German people.
|
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 07:52
Hitler was elected by the people. he used democracy to demolish it when he was elected chancellor in 1933, I think, by a democratic vote. ------------- |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 07:58
|
A debatable point. Depends on which history you read. You have to admit there are many, and all with their own axe to grind!
------------- elenos |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 10:49
| Anyway my gripe is with Nazis and Hitler and not German people And with people still harbouring nazi ideology |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 13:06
Hitler was not elected, he was appointed by President Hindenburg. the NSDAP was elected, but not legally, Communist Party members were imprisoned, Social Democrats were bribed or threatened to vote for Nazis. ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 18:01
|
I'm, waiting for them to find the direct descendants of the original Aryans as some inbred nomads in the most isolated corner of Uzbekistan. That will make all the borish nationalists STFU. IIRC, the Nazis were invited into the ruling coalition, but did not have enough votes to rule by themselves. This was the proverbial foot in the door. The Riechstag fire did the rest. -------------  Arrrgh!!"
|
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 18:30
Well, the most commonly accepted explanation in the past was the Anatolian theory, which put the origins in modern-day Turkey. It has since fallen out of favour and the view with the most currency is the Kurgan hypothesis, which puts the origins basically in one of the most hardscrabble backwaters of Eurasia, somewhere around northern Kazakhstan and the southern part of the Ural Mountains. Now Hitler might have got the idea that because there were Germans living in that area - the Volga Germans - that they had some direct connection with the homeland of the Indo-Europeans, but, it's just basic history that the Volga Germans were recent arrivals, having settled there by invitation of Catherine the Great in the late 1700s. Pure coincidence that there were any Germans there at all. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 18:42
|
I was under the impression that Hitler didnt give a toss where the Aryans came from, it was just one of many vauge excuses for the Germans being better than everyone else. He even claimed that Jesus was an Aryan, and that Bavarian blood was the purest on different occasions, presumably depending on his audience. IIRC, it was the Thule society wierdos who took it more seriously, and they mixed it up with atlantians and what not, with occasional field trips to tibet to measure the odd skull, as you do. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
|
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 19:22
You're probably right on that score. Hitler took a hands-off approach to everything, issuing vague directives and generalizations while leaving the bother of details to subordinates. He preferred loafing around the Berghof and playing at being the "Bavarian gentleman" (gentleman of leisure, apparently) to doing any sort of work. I suppose one cannot expect much else from a man whose background was that of dreamer and bum on the streets of Vienna.
As I do? 
Whatever do you mean? |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 19:32
|
Umm, no. Figure of speech. Not you personaly. Often used after describing something wierd or far out. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
|
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 01:40
|
One of the striking features of Indo-European society (ayran in the old form) always has been the enforced laws on in-breeding. This process of exogenesis (out-breeding) started the spread of the original society. The same process happened with the Vikings, once the third generation had reached they had to move out of Scandinavia and find their own lands. This made room in the little space their people occupied originally. I don't know what Hitler would have made of that. Out all the things Hitler most loved it was standing in front of a roaring crown shouting for his immortality while he thundered out whatever came into his tinny head. He was and alway remained an archetype trade union leader with dreams of national socialist glory who really did make it into the big time. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 09:35
Say what? Hitler banned trade unions. |
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 07:43
| Actually i like to back out a bit. I may have been a bit too harsh. Many nations in the past have held stupid and superstitious beliefs and just to single out Germans for this is a bit unfair. Every nation has had its moments of shame. For example my contry in its short 60 years of existence has already has one such hour of shame when we commited unspeakable atrocities against the Bangla people. So i admit i may have bene in the wrong here |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 08:56
From Mein Kampf “Are trade unions necessary? I think that I have already
answered the question adequately. In the present state of affairs I am
convinced that we cannot possibly dispense with the trades unions. On the
contrary, they are among the most important institutions in the economic life
of the nation. Not only are they important in the sphere of social policy but
also, and even more so, in the national political sphere. For when the great
masses of a nation see their vital needs satisfied through a just trade
unionist movement the stamina of the whole nation in its struggle for existence
will be enormously reinforced thereby. “ Okay so he lied, but he was Hitler and not known for his
ability to keep promises or even tell the truth. He was a master of practicing deception
on a massive scale. When taking over ------------- elenos |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 13:03
Actually the trade unions supported the Social Democrat party (SPD) and the Communist Party (KPD), and were probably the largest and most vocal organized opposition to Hitler that existed at the time - evidently not vocal or organized enough, though. The SPD voted against the Enabling Act, the KPD would have done so but they were banned from the vote, both parties were built principally on trade unions. This was the chief reason Hitler banned trade unions despite his one-time admiration of them - because he could never get their support and they were determined to oppose and undermine him. |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 20:53
|
After WWI Hitler became part of a military intelligence unit and infiltrated the German Worker's Party. He soon saw this struggling party as his pathway to power and worked very hard to build it into a political party. His emotional speeches and mass meetings captivated audiences with talk of the people’s welfare, self-determination for all Germans and equal rights in the world. His speeches also blamed the Jews for internationalism (now
called globalization) for the sake of profit. He said this caused The Nazi party drew vast numbers of members affected by
hyper-inflation and food scarcity and so his labor party kept winning
elections, large or small. They offered jobs to party members and provided them
as long as they swore not to be part of any other party. The name changed to
the National Socialist German Worker's party, and the red flag with the
swastika was adopted as the symbol. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 20:52
| The Germans NEVER started WW1 or 2! DO your 20th cent history! Its propaganda. The Germans were part of the tension just as the other countries were in Europe |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 21:17
| So, KingBooker, out of curiousity who started WWII? If I remember correctly Germany was building up arms and re militarizing when the rest of Europe really wasn't. Don't forget that they, the Germans, were annexing parts of Europe and that one Neville Chamberline tried to let Hitler do whatever he wanted. What greater tension were the Germans part of, in regards to World War II? |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 21:19
That contention has to go down in the Guiness Book of Records as the world's most useless argument! ------------- elenos |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 21:24
actually, all of europe was re-arming by the time Hitler took over, thats why the ex-entente powers couldn't say anything about it. but re-arming wasn't the reason Hitler started the war anyways... ------------- |
Posted By: longshanks31
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 01:16
|
they made themselves a laughing stock opening up on a second front and the peculiar marching.
what they did to the jews was militarily stupid too, if they had, had that volume of people with manpower and talent contained there in , i think the atom bomb would have been theres first not to mention extra production and soldiers.
the nazi ideology was bonkers, anyone who views the nazis as anything other than a historical laughing stock needs there head examining.
|
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 04:26
You should reread what I wrote. What I said was that Germany was building arms in a time when the rest of Europe really wasn't. That statement is not the same as saying that Germany was the only country building up its military in Europe. The statement that I made actually cedes the point that other nations in Europe were building arms, however they were not doing so to the extent that Germany was. I'm well aware that re-militarizing wasn't the reason that the war started again re-read what I wrote. I believe that I said something that had to do with land grabbing and stated that as the cause of the war. The land grabbing that I am talking about is Hitler's annexation of Austria, the Sudatenland, France, and later his full scale invasion of Poland. |
Posted By: SuN.
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 05:25
Some people seem to have deciphered the Indus script & it seems to be similiar to the Tamil language. I dont know the details though. Just remember having read it somewhere. ------------- God is not great. |
Posted By: SuN.
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 05:27
Testimony of direct relatives may not be inferior to arm chair history obtained from google. Macaulay's historians said horse was non existent in ancient India. But now it has been proved that ancient India had horses. They said chariots were not present in Indus valley. That also has been proved wrong. Indus valley civilization was a part of the Aryan civilization, which continues till date. Another proof is that the mythical city of Dwarka, Lord Krishna's city has also been discovered & dated at 7500 b.c. |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 21:51
|
Whoops, we have just jumped from Hitler to the Indus Valley in the last couple of posts.
------------- elenos |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 02:11
Hitler was elected. However, when he took power he simply forgot the rules and become a dictator.
It is not fair to blame German people about the actions of theirs ancestors. 99.99% of germans weren't born by 1921, so they have no responsability at all on what happened since 1939! It is also not fair to blame all Germans for what was done under a war and a dictatorship.
Now, blame the origins of the Nazi idiology rather than German people, that was under the control of a dictator. The origin of the racist ideology are deep in the history of Europe, and can be traced to everywhere in Europe, including France, Britain, Russia, etc. and also to the Christians polgroms of the Middle Ages, the Inquisition and other criminal actions of the past. So, the whole Europe is in part guilty of what happed in Germany those tragic days.
|
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 09:35
I somehow don't feel guilty for Hitler and German's crimes and don't see why Poland should take any responibilitty for that. Each country is responsible for its own actions.
|
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 12:41
|
I'm with Majkes, Pinguin. Regardless of whether 99.99% of Germans weren't born by 1921 Germans are still responsible for what happened. By the way I think that number is a little high. I'd like to know where you got it. Racist ideologies can be found in every country not just European countries, so that argument is really moot. All that line of reasoning is doing is acting as an apologist for the Nazi and Allied atrocities. The people that are responsible for Hitler and Germany's crimes (since the Nazi were tried and convicted of crimes against humanity) are Germans.
On a side note putting pogroms and Inquisition in the realm of criminal action is incredibly anachronistic. Can you show that pogroms in the Middle Ages and inquistion were concidered felonies by the judicial systems of their respective time. The Inquistision was actually developed by the Church in response to the Cathar Heresy/Albigensian Crusade. It was developed to be used against Christians surely this is not racist nor is it criminal. |
Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 13:32
If so, Germans are also responsible for things like the most enlightened policis towards Jews during the Middle Ages. You might call Germany out on the issue of responsibility for Nazism, but not individual Germans. The way the Germans themselves have put it there's the "Deutshcland der Richter und Henker" (the Germany of judges and hangmen), but there's also the "Deutschland der Dichter und Denker" (the Germany of poets and thinkers). You can't focus exclusively on the former, but not on the latter. Or at least that's what the Germans are hoping. Besides, compared to the kind of soul-searching the German people has done since 1945, it makes just about every other nation on this earth look as if in denial of the less salubrious parts or its history. ------------- One must not insult the future. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 14:21
|
Individual Germans allowed Hitler and the Nazis to come to power. So explain how individual Germans are not responsible for Nazism. The thing about "-isms" is that it takes individual people to implement them. I'm not saying that all Germans held the beliefs of Nazism, but a majority of them did buy into the belief system of Nazism. So, again, I ask how Germans aren't responsible for Nazism?
Funny thing about the "Deutschlnad der Dichter und Denker" is that in the 1930's and 1940's those people for the most part were chased out of Germany. Examples include Einstein, Oppenheimer, Kantorowitz, and many others (these are just fellow Germans that were forced to leave by the "Deutschland der Dichter und Denker"). They also killed many poets and thinkers like Marc Bloch. So I guess Germany at the time of the Nazis had a wonderful track record as "Deutschland der Dichter und Denker." |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 15:32
You must be kidding. Most enlighten comparing to who? Not comparing to Poland for sure.
|
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 15:33
|
Besides, You know well Pinguin that Nazi had a lot of followers and support in Latin America. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 16:35
Yes, I know. Including "phylosophers" like Miguel Serrano and concentration camps like Colonia Dignidad. Quite a lot of war criminals hide there as well. Even more, I will add that many in here would have preffer Hitler defeated the allies.
However, because we have Germans immigrants in South America we are able to distinguish Germans from Nazis. They are not the same. Europe is plenty of old guilt because of crimes that go from the Pogroms, the Inquisition and witch hunting, to theirs endless wars, the explotation of the poors during the industrial revolution, massive explotation of African slaves and the genocide of Amerindians, Aborigines and indigenous people worldwide.
So, why everybody blames the Germans and only Germans for something that was a logical consecuence of European history?
|
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 17:05
I don't blame nowadays German but Germans from Hitler's time were responsible for what Hitler did except those who opposed him.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 17:18
|
Of course the Nazis are guilty. Everyone in the party and its followers. And to certain degree that generation of Germans that went crazy.
Now, if you were a common German in Germany at those times what could you do? They didn't ask teens if they wanted to go to the army... they grab them. They didn't ask for the support of people, they will have to give it or would be shot on site. I have lived under a dictatorship so I know that when things go though it is very little what people can do. Particularly when those dictators lack sense of humor and kill every opponent on the spot. All that you need to produce a new Nazi Germany is 50.000 fanatics that control a country by terror. That's all what was needed in Germany.
|
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2007 at 18:43
good post above, people who never lived under a dictatorship can hardly relaize that...
not exactly, Hitler was appointed by the Reichs-President, the National-Socialists were elected, but undemocratically, they didn't allowed the Communists to vote and forced many Social-Democrats to vote for the Nazis, that was illegal at that time. ------------- |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 02:00
|
I agree Temujin, but that makes a rather convoluted statement! Learning
about the Nazis and how they worked cannot be explained in just the one
paragraph, what really happened takes time to absorb, that is if any of
how Hitler and his henchmen fooled an entire population can be
absorbed at all. I try to get down to the clean basics bits before moving on
to the more advanced dirty details. I once knew an old guy who lived in wartime Berlin and he told me how seeing men and women hanging from lamp posts became a common sight and you only threw up for the first few times. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 10:10
The problem isn't legislation but application. During the Staufer emperors it was illegalised to accuse Jews of the "blood sacrifice" myth — i.e the abduction and murder of Christian children to drink their blood. It was a common accusation to get at Jews legally all over Europe. But at the time in the HRE, it was the accuser who would go on trial for slander. The point is still that while you can make selective choices from the history of a nation, should you? If someone wants to essentialise the Holocaust as inherently "German" I'm sure they can try. I would consider it a msiatke and want to know why though. ------------- One must not insult the future. |
Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 10:20
Those German already dead before Nazism and those German not yet born for starters. People want to hold Germans in general accountable for Nazism, even essentialise Nazism as "German". That's what I'm reacting to; blanket indictments of Germans and Germany, which conveniently excises all history before and after the fact as somehow "inessential". Makes as much sense as holding all modern Americans accountable for slavery and the destruction of all those native Americans. I.e. not really. But the US is still historically implicated in those events, just like Germany is over the Holocaust. On a side not, I'd be curious to know how you have concluded that "a majority of them [Germans, back in the days] did buy into the belief system of Nazism"? I'd say that Nazism succeeded by being able to buy into the belief system of a majority of Germans at the time, finding the lowest common denominator (in a double sense). That's what populists do. Nazism is only possible at that time and that place. It didn't just suddenly appear all pristine and sway large number of Germans from a zero position. The Nazis were very good at picking up things already in circulation, and then they recycled them with their own nasty twist. Really, it helps to explain why the Nazis in some ways appeared so damn "normal" to many Germans at the time. ------------- One must not insult the future. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 15:15
| When I say Germans when referring to Nazism, Joinville, I mean Germans alive during the Nazi regime and the lead up to their ascendency. These are the Germans who are responsible, I really don't care about the Germans of the HRE when I am discussing Nazi Germany. I would never intend to say that Nazism or anyother type of fascism would appear out of nowhere. |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 18:13
|
Within every country there are fringe groups and usually they remain on the edges of society. However, given certain conditions they will flourish to cause a lot of trouble and extreme cases grab political power as happened in pre-war Germany.
------------- elenos |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 18:34
You are the one talking about legislation. I'm talking about facts. Jews voted with their legs by chosing Polish-Lithuanian teritories to live there. So You think they were stupid that they were chosing Poland instead of richer HRE?
In Poland Jews had their own authoroties responsible only before the King. If someone killed Jew the penalty was much higher than to kill a peasant.
|
Posted By: Deano
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 18:52
Im just waiting for them to find out that germans are desendents of Irany chinese people that where attacked by aliens and mixed mated and to flee the aliens they ran away to present day germany around bc 19,030,344.Then aliens setteled around Iran afghanistan and west china and those people their now are desendents of aliens from uranus  . ------------- I AM FARTAKUS! |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 19:34
My English is too poor to understand it
 . Translation or short explanation is needed. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 21:00
I agree with you,don't forget that the victor writes the history and the world has been devided into two camps bad guys and good guys(just like American wrestling and hollywood movies).If you are so unlucky to be born outside the privileged and rich nations ,you have to struggle to prove your points and institutions receive billions of dollars to do research about the history of your country to prove that all leaders and historical figures from there were tyrants and inhuman and your nation allways was undemocratic only liberators from west can free your nation and their way of life has to replace yours, in the process if milions of innocence people get killed (Hiroshima and Nagasaki or today in Iraq) you never get any explanation for it and the leader gets elected again!!!, I would like to know what the exact definition for human is these days???
It is maybe better to replace NATIONALISM WITH HUMANISM, for a better future for human race.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 21:36
|
Are you crazy? Do you want to left militaries unemployed? Do you want machine gun manufacturers close the curtain? that military bands turn to reaggeton? What more human that the culture of killing the fellow human being? And to massacre people all you need a cute flag to defend!
|
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2007 at 22:40
|
Defination for being human? Perhaps those who say I'm intelligent ans sane but I don't know about the rest of the people in the world!
------------- elenos |
Posted By: Deano
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 21:56
What I meant was I was hoping for them to find out soon that the people living around afganistan,eastern Iran and west china here pushed out and fled to germany by aliens from uranus.Then the aliens settled in that area.And it all happened a long,long time a go. ------------- I AM FARTAKUS! |
Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 22:39
He was just poking fun at all the theories about origins of people/the ancestry of modern peoples etc. that we see pop up rather too frequently. ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann 
|
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2007 at 21:27
Ok, I see your point. You can go to Medieval forum and see there a very long and very funny thread about Bulgarian origins
 . |
Posted By: TheMysticNomad
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 08:43
|
I'm probably in the minority here, but I generally don't see national origin theories as all that funny (although some certainly are). Rather, they are based on the realization that humans did not just appear out of nowhere. Everyone on the planet had to come from somewhere. Most people understand that humanity originated somewhere in Africa and migrated out to the rest of the world over time. So, there's nothing wrong with theorizing about the migration routes of peoples, especially when there is evidence to back it up. Even so, I would agree that Hitler and the Nazis were the biggest crackpots in history. ------------- Unify All Countries! |
Posted By: Deano
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 01:17
I was kidding though just so you know.I dont know if you thought I was serious or not but I was kiddin.  I never get to use that one !------------- I AM FARTAKUS! |
Posted By: longshanks31
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2007 at 22:12
|
on the first day god created britain, he saw that it was good.
The rest was an afterthought ------------- long live the king of bhutan |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 00:45
I don't think you are in the minority at all; rather, I think that when we make fun of "origin theories", what we are really making fun of is the laughable use of them by ethnocentrists. Origin theories can, if examined in a mature context, be interesting. On this forum, however, we generally see them childishly trotted out in the service of someone's nationalistic agenda. I agree with you as to the value of studying human -- and even ethnic -- origins. Unfortunately, these studies are generally perverted to suit preconceived ethnic biases. That said, if you chose to break the trend and study them in an academic manner, I doubt anyone would hold it against you -- at least I hope they wouldn't.
 -Akolouthos
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 18:15
Yeap. Britain was what Nazis tried to imitate..
By the way, that sounds to me like the declaration of the "manifest destiny", isn't?
|
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 22:43
|
If the Nazis tried to imitate the British then that was the worst job of acting in the whole history of the human race!
------------- elenos |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 16:39
Every country have nasty pasts. 
|
Posted By: bilal_ali_2000
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 17:26
|
Man why this thread has been resurrected. I am not very proud of this one. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 15:38
|
Some asked here how this could happen. This is no excuse. This shall be just an Explanation.
Germany found his Unity in 1871 as one of the last countries in western Europe. All the others had colonies, Germany only had some few. They just wanted a place in the sun as the other nations too. Then after WWI which Germany didn't start alone but together with all the other big countries, the were the loosers and they were called guilty alone. Germany had to pay uncredible amount of money and lost greater parts of the state. After the war some neighnour countries, like Belguium and France e.g. invaded the Rhine area to posses the coal. They didn't behave very well to the people. That was seen as an national shame. Then in the 20th there was an inflation of the money A Goldmark from 1914 was 10 Reichsmark worth in 1919, 100.000 RM in July 1923 and 1.000.000.000.000 RM in November 1923. 1 US-Dollar was as much as 4.200.000.000.000 RM. The people who suffered during the war were again on the looseng side. After that the times began to become better, it is called the Golden Twenties. But in 1928 all was over. The unemployment in 1928 was about 1,25 Million. It rose till 1933 to over 6 Mio. In the same time from 1924 to 1932 the votes for Nationalist and Communists rose from about 12% to over 50%. In my village in 1924 the Socialists (SPD) had 58%, the Nazis not even 1%. In 1928 the Nazis had just 4%, the SPD over 68%. In 1930 the NSDAP had 24% and 1932 47% and the Communists 13%. Only in March 1933 the Nazis had more than 50% but this wasn't really a free election. Opponents of the Nazis were imprisoned, the people were forced to give their vote public and so on. When the Nazis got the power the live of many Germans began to become better. The unemployment sank down to 2,4 Million in 1934 and to 0,5 Million in 1937. The NSDAP was organizing the lives of many people. For the first time many people could go to vacation or could at least send their children on holiday. For a lot of people this was wonderful. And Hitler gave them bachk a feeling of pride that they didn't had since 1918. yes, the people knew that there were other who were imprisoned. But mostly it were people of who they thought, somethings forbidden must have happened. It is like today. If they imprison a neighbour, the most people think: Oh, they wouldn't arrest him, if he is absolutely unguilty. Something has to be. And when they knew what was wrong with the Nazis it was to late. Most were frightened. They feared for their lives, for their family lives. And then the war began. People who were against the Nazis were excited by their success or wouldn't make trouble during a war. Look at America. There are a lot of people who are thinking the war on Irak is not justified. Look how they are treated, sometimes as traitors. And the U.S. call themselves a Democracy. So this is just a little look to the life of "normal" Germans. Perhaps you got a feeling how such very bad things can happen.
|
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 19:50
|
That's the most amazing explanation I've ever heard, beorna.
------------- elenos |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 06-Dec-2007 at 20:41
|
Beorna, thanks for your oppinion, but i think in deep an adventouros explanation.
The reasons for the nazi leadership and the following holocaust are more complex.
------------- 
http://imageshack.us"> 
|
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 08:29
|
I don't know, why this is an amazing or adventurous explanation. I saw the question here, why Germans elected Hitler and his NSDAP. I didn't talk about the political eltes, the conservatives and the big company leaders, Ididn't talk about the army. I just tried to explain why common people elected the NSDAP. What do you thought. What do you think why people eg in my village changed from over 60% for the SPD to about 50 for the NSDAP. What do you think why people became members of the NSDAP or their children of HJ or BDM. Look e.g. to some islamic countries. What are radicals doing. They care for the people. They give money or food to poor people, the help them with the education of their children and so on. Because the like the people? They just want their support for their political interest. That's hat the Nazis did. Millions of Germans got a future (they thought they had), got jobs, got their pride back and more. Do you really thought about 50% of the Germans elected the NSDAP because they were all with their ideals. You can say but they could have read the book Mein Kampf. Yes they could. You'd ever looked in that book. It is not only rubbish it's boring to. The most Germans had it, but a very por read it. They didn't think a lot about it. It was their life that got better, the black sides of the Nazis the people couldn't see or wouldn't see. Another point is, that the Nazis ruled the press, the movies, the radio even tv (for a very few people). It is not like today. You can watch internet or use your handy or your satellite tv. The most people just knew one truth and that was the one of the Nazis. And if I say about 50% elected the Nazis then you have to think about the other rest. What did they think about it. Some were imprisoned, others arranged with the system or just kept their mouth shut to get no trouble. Parents lived in the fear their children could tell the teacher or the man from HJ what was spoken at home, families were divided because some supported the Nazis and others were against it. For example in my family. A lot were in war with the Wehrmacht (two were at the SS-Polizeidivision) but there were others who even didn't join the NSDAP and even one was murdered because he help people to cross the border. Please, this is just an explanation for why common people became Nazis or didn't do something against it. This is no accuse. If you really think there is something amazing or adventure please name it. |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 09:46
|
What was that Goethe said in Dr Faust? "There is no black or white, my friend, just endless shades of grey."
------------- elenos |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 13:06
Beorna,
I agree absolutely with your post.
It is very easy to demonize German people for the Nazis and WW II.
But people that say those oppinions have never being in the situation of a political totalitarian movement or under a dictatorship. They have never feel the sensation of being controlled by the state, which at its time is controlled by a small nucleous of fanatics. They have never feel the fear of being tortured or killed.
I am Chilean and I lived that in small scale under the Pinochet dictatorship, so I know about it. Besides, in my country we have a German minority and some of them went to fight for Germany (not for the Nazis, but for the country of theirs ancestors) during WW II. We received German refugees and also German Jews escaping from the Holocaust as well. All of them told us what was going on in there.
Blaming German people for everything is forgetting Europe as a whole was playing with fascism and totalitarian ideas since the times of Napoleon. People forget the ideas that ended in the holocaust were growing during centuries in Europe and were increased by racist ideologies like Social Darwinings, developed in Britain and not in Germany.
I think, people should stop blamming Germans for everything. It is too easy to blame a single country for the crimes of the past, forgetting that all Europe got mad twice during the first half of the twentieth century. And all Europe are in part guilty of that.
------------- |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 16:41
I partially agree with Boema and with You. Those are important reasons Boema mentioned but not all as Ulrich noticed - e.g. I would also add strong wish of revange against France and Britain for lost WWI and Wersal Treaty.
Though I don't agree with blaming Britain for some philosophers that invented racial theories only because it happend that they were British.
|
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 18:01
This is just making excuses for people. At some point the people who committed these crimes during WWII have to take responsibility for their actions. I'm blaming the Germans for what happened I'm blaming anybody who was complicit with them. Your argument argument about knowing what it is like living under a dictatorship is ludicrous. If this argument is true it says more about the cowardice of the people living in Nazi Germany than the mindset of your average German. There were many people who stood up to fascism all across Europe, not all were killed actually many lived. Where I grew up we have lots of Germans as well and they told us what was going on and it doesn't have the same apologist ring that your description does. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:35
If you blame ONLY Germans of what happened in WW II you are excusing Europeans in general for theirs common guilt.
WW II and the Holocaust where the consecuencies of one thousand years of bigotry in Europe. Don't put all the guilt on Germans, please. All Europeans have a good share on those tragical events.
That's my oppinion, anyways.
------------- |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:39
And those nations and persons who tried to save the Jews was the result of what? Many neutral nations did everything they could to bring Jews into safety in their countries. How does that fit into your theory of European bigotry? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:53
First, I explain you already the ideas that lead to WW II and the massive crimes commited in there were in place in Europe for a long time. Killings of Jewish populations, or pogroms, were esporadical but always present in the history of Europe. The example was in place.
The use of slave labour was also an example of the colonial powers these times, who exploited to dead millions of Africans in the Caribbean. Ask nations like Dutchland, France, Britain, Portugal and Spain about its history in slavery, and you will find the model followed by the Nazis.
For Genocide, the extermination of Native Americans, Tasmanians and many other peoples by European settlers in new lands was the perfect example of how to get rid of the people a nation considered undesirable.
Even Napoleon was planning to commit a genocide in Haiti! That mentality existed in Europe long time before WW II, and survived even after that tragic war. Just remember the war of Yugoslavia.
Even the model of the dictator was already in place with figures like Mussolini and Stalin in power before Hitler even appeared on scene.
Yes, many Europeans pretend to be innocent of what happened in WW II and want to put everything in the shoulders of Germans.
Just realize most common Germans were also the victims of a dictatorship that destroyed Europe.
And of course, many Europeans worked for the good, like the Dutchland people that hide Jews in theirs houses, for instace. Spain opened its frontiers to the Jews declaring all of them were "Sephardites" and had Spanish nationality. The Catholic church and even the fascist regime in Italy helped many Jews to be smuggled out of Europe and into the Americas. But didn't you know that even Germans helped? Remember Schidler? Didn't you know that some German diplomats helped as well?
I am not saying European are bigots. Most are not. But the tragic history of Europe of recent times was a consecuence of the attitudes of past centuries.
------------- |
Posted By: Patch
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:02
You can't blame all Germans for the Holocaust,ww2 and the other atrocities commited by the Nazis, just most of them.
There were some Germans who activily opposed the Nazis e.g. Oskar Schindler, the White Rose, the July plotters, the 10,000 who joined the Allied forces, many of the 16,000 German soldiers executed by the Nazis plus many others whose names have been lost to history. The fact that so many were prepared to risk all and oppose the Nazis further damms those who didn't.
|
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:03
Just explain me please how e.g. Polish can be blamed for WWII and war atrocities?? If we talk about WWII Germans are responsable for this. You are right that Europe has long history of Jews killing, dictatorship etcbut we don't normally blame Chinese for japanese crimes only because they are Asians.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:16
I am not the indicated to point the fingers about particular Europeans nations. I also know that Poland was the victim several times of the European empires, rather than the cause of the problem. I agree on that.
Some countries like Poland, Switzerland and perhaps Sweeden have been innocent of what happened in WW II by all means. But others don't.
Let's point the fingers on some:
Britain: For setting the example, exploiting Black slaves, exterminating aboriguines, converting India in a nation of second clase citizens, destroying the Boers and inventing the concentration camps. For having such twisted minds as Spencer among them, Veredic: Guilty!
Spain: For similar crimes that England but also for Inquisition, autos of faith, the expulsion of the Jews and the Moors, and the killings of the Civil War. Veredic: Guilty.
Dutchland: Don't believe for a second Deutchland is innocent
Italy: Because of Mussolini, who was the example Hitler followed. And also because the glory and crimes of Rome has always been the model to imitate. Guilty.
France: For its crimes in Haiti and Africa, and for Napoleon... Of course Guilty!
Russians: For the pogroms, crimes against the peasants and the Killings of Stalin.Veredic: Guilty.
Greece: for having a race of fascists such criminal like the Spartans, and that have been the example of inhumanity for century. Veredic: Guilty!
I could go on and on. The point is this, what happened during WW II was the final end of a history of inhuman ideologies that permeated Europe and the world. The German people was not innocent, but blamming them and only them for all the crimes is hypocresy. That's what I believe.
------------- |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 22:14
Of course almost every country comitted crimes in the past. Poland as well wasn't that innocent as You think
. What You've mentioned with a bit of irony
were problems of those countries. Nazism was German problem and I wouldn't blame others for that. Nevertheless I think people in Europe should stop blaming each other for the past. I see more interesting things to do. I think Europe is doing quite well right now. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 22:21
|
Agree. I think Europe has reinvented itself very well after WW II and particularly after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The European Union is also contributing to change Europe.
Let hope the Old Continent continue to be a heaven of freedom and humanity like it is today.
------------- |
Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 01:43
|
I almost hate to say anything seeing as how this conversation seemed to have ended on a positive note but, the point pinguin was trying to make is valid.
Making sweeping generalizations never accomplishes anything, (not to say I don't do it, difficult habit to break) the heart of nazism and the holocaust was germany. No one is likely to dispute this. However that does not mean it was uniquely german. Just look at the SS, or more specifically the Waffen SS. You will notice many non germans fighting for the nazis. Now looking again at germany one will (I certainly hope) see that not all germans were nazis. Did the germans "drop the ball" and allow nazism to take over. I think for the most part yes, though it is a large grey area. Nazism and hitler didn't just appear in 1933 out of thin air, anti-semitism had been a part of europe for arguably over a thousand years. Obviously the nazi's took it way further, but never the less, anti-semitism was not uniquely nazi or german. Also, I think most will agree that when people face very difficult and miserable situations the tendency of less pleasant thoughts in all people are more likely to come to the surface. The chances of extreme groups gaining popularity also increases. Germany went from bad to worse from ~1916 on through the 20's. As the nazi's got more support things got better. Beorna's (hope I spelled that right) post does a good job of explaining why. Now as time progresses the nazi's slowly gain more power, and unsuprisingly there attitudes become more vocal about jews/war etc. One thing I always like to do is compare nazi germany in 1933 and 45. One can see how the state was not totalitarian in 33 but was very much in that arena in 45. Look at the soviet union for comparison, if nazi germany had survived for another ten years it would be right on par with the soviet union in regards to indoctrination in all levels of society, brutality towards own people, control of freedom in military etc.
I'm just rambling on here, but I hope my point is clear enough to see. The period 1933-1945 is one of complexity, just like the nazi government. One can't simply make sweeping generalizations and possibly come anywhere near accuracy. ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
|
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:16
|
With dictatorship, the rule by one or a small clique seems to work beautifully at first and then things start going horribly wrong. "There is only one way, my way!" In modern terms it takes an army of people armed with laptops and mobiles rather than guns and grenades to keep a country on track. Rather than arming themselves with bullets for the next battle they arm themselves with rhetoric for the next round of conferences. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:25
|
Elenos, You can't downplay the efficience of bullets and torture to break the will of people.
It is very nice to argue about principles like freedom, democracy and justice in countries that have healthy democratic regimens. But when the countries are controlled by criminals, and the secret police can pick you at night at torture and humilliate you to the point of losing your identity, matters are quite different.
What was seeing during the Nazi regime, and small scale in all the fascist, communist and totalitarian regimes of the twentieth century, it was the demostration of how modern technology plus brutality served to control large countries with a small band of criminals.
The only way to escape those kind of regimes is democracy.
In that sense, and only in that sense, the German people was a victim more of the cathastrophe that was WW II for all Europeans.
------------- |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 04:23
|
I'm in total agreement with you Pinquin, it's not so much death but the fear of death and disorder from a small band of political criminals can break the will of a developing nation and undermine any former advances made. How do they get there in the first place? Nobody expects them to run for political office and usually they don't. Those already there may desire to fleece the public but not kill them nor change the law to suit their own purposes. I suppose that is the price of having a democracy, the constant grumbling of one side about the excesses of the other.
------------- elenos |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 09:29
I repeat it, I don't want to excuse Germans for the things they did. It was not an apology I made. There were about 100.000 people who were imprisoned after the war because they commited crimes and if you ask me, there were enough people who had not to take consequences for their crimes but should to. If you blame Germany for it's history I can agree with it. But to blame all Germans just because they are Germans is wrong, especially if those weren't born at those days. What I tried to do was to bring the normal lifes of Germans close to you. Why did they vote for the NSDAP allthough they voted for democratic parties before. Why did they look away if people were imprisoned, why did people who didn't vote for the NSDAP became later supporters of them and so on. You say it is cowardice that the people in Nazi Germany showed. Well, sure it is often cowardice. There were some German wifes who made a big trouble because their jewish husbands were imprisoned. They succeded an their husbands were rescued. But there were others who were killed just because they made a joke. If you would have been in their situation what would you have done? Would you be the one who succeeded or the one who was going to be executed? Cowardice? Yes it was cowardice. Every dictatorship starts with cowardice, too. You are from the United States. Is this correct? Well, we the Western World have the human rights. They are the base of our culture, am I right? Your country is not very loved in the moment all over the world. One cause for it is Guantanamo. Your country kidnapped all over the world people whether they were guilty or innocent, just because some of you thought they were guilty. Your government led those people be imprisoned like cattle, they tortured them and I don' t know what else. Some of your soldiers commited war crimes in Iraq and in Afghanistan. I don't want to discuss here whether these wars are wrong or right. All I want to ask you is where the outcry of the U.S. society is? Oh, there are some, but the most of you are silent. What are the reasons of it? If it is so difficult to stand up against what is going wrong in an democrcy, how can you think it is so easy under an dictator.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 02:01
|
Beorna, once again my support. Most Germans of today weren't born when all these tragical events happened. There is no right to convert Germany in a pariah society for sins that happened more than a generation ago, and which that country already payed with lot of suffering, including the 45 years of the Berlin Wall. Other powers in Europe and overseas also have some terrible crimes to be ashame of, but nobody blames today's generations for those. I won't point fingers but very few countries have an history free of crimes.
We should be fair with Germany, and help that nation to forget that tragic past. Germany used to the most brilliant nation in Europe, and after the war they have been an example of humanitarian nation, like no other.
That's my oppinion, anyways.
------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 03:20
My response was not to your post, but rather to the post of Pinguin. I also don't think you read it carefully. In my post, which you quoted, I said that I blame the Germans and those complicit with the Nazis. That is I blame Jews as well, Jews like Ernest Kantorowitz. I don't blame Germans living now unless they were old enough to fight for or support the Nazis. You seem to be missing the point though. I am not arguing that all Germans were cowards or that they were all to blame. My post was intended to counter Pinguin's post in which he lets contemporary Germans (Nazi Germany) off the hook because they were faced with a fascist dictatorship. Most? Where are you getting your sources for American sentiment dealing with Gitmo and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Did you not follow the midterm elections in 2006 when the Republican Congress was voted out and a Democratic Congress was voted in? This was done on an anti-war platform. I think that speaks volumes for the sentiment of the US population. Would you care to elaborate on the war crimes that were conducted in Afghanistan? Are there any indictments at the Hague? You really need to follow US politics more before you comment on them. If you had followed the reporting that went on in the US when Gitmo was first introduced and today you would know that most reporting and public opinion is not in favor of Gitmo. Don't judge American opinion by what is reported on FoxNews. Had you followed US coverage of Gitmo you would know that there have been Scandals that came out of there such as Waterboarding a big topic at the Recent Republican CNN/Youtube debate. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 03:32
Who's blaming modern germans. I and other people are only blaming Germans who were old enough to fight for/support the Nazi regime. I also don't limit that to Germany. I blame the Vichy French, Italians, Spanish, Poles who supported their puppet regime, Czechs, Swedes, Ukrainian, Lithuanians, Belgians, Dutch and anybody else who aided the Nazis. But I don't blame anybody who was not old enough to support or fight for the Nazis. We shouldn't help Germany to forget their past. A nation should remember its entire past, not just the bits it wants to remember. Germany should remember that at one point if you wanted the best education you went to Germany. It should also remember why for the past 50 + years that is no longer the case. The reason for that departure... You guessed it the Nazis. To forget the effects of the Nazi regime is the first step in repeating it. Today's Germany is far from a Pariah state. If you want a Pariah state go look at North Korea. Germany is one of the leading members of the EU and is also a member of the G8 along with the US, UK, Japan, Russia, France, Germany, Canada, and Italy. Keep in mind that the G8 was formed some 32 years ago. So clearly this Pariah status was gone before then. This status as a member of the G8 and one of the leading members of the EU is hardly that of a Pariah state. |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 05:58
Which puppet regime was supported by Poles? Don't talk nonsense. There was no puppet regime in Poland during WWII
. You better blame americans who sold Eastern Europe to Russia and did nothing to help Jews. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 08:37
I don't think that you blame all. But even in Nazi Germany - by the way, I don't like these term, I'd like to say Germany, because we do not talk about Reagan-US, Bush-US or Churchill-UK, as well - you should blame all. I don't want to apology them, of course I'd wish they hadn't done what they'd done, but we aren't in their shoes, so we should be carefull with our accuse.
It is good to hear that Americans stand up against crimes of their government and their troops. But 2002 is long ago. It was a long way till now, wasn't it. I don't want to blame you all for it, what I just want to say is, that it's sometimes hard to stop what's going on, when so many people are going blind as a fact of patriotism or even nationalism.
Your war crimes in Afghanistan? Well, your troops commit torture in Afghanistan and of course again in Guantanamo. They fire on everything that's moving. How many innocent people where killed by bombings? I am sorry to say that German soldiers probably helped you or didn't avoid it. So you could blame us too. That's exactly what I mean. Theses countries are far away, the most people don't know where theses countries lay and aren't interested at all. They just care about there own problems. It isn't far to the behavior to people in a dictatorship.
|
Posted By: Garvm
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 11:37
|
What is the sense of this thread!?
Every country in the world is responsable for some horrendous crime in his History...
If someone try to evaluate in some type of scale the crimes, would be certainly unfair, because the real evaluation isnt the quantity of crimes (altough very important...) is the type of crime...
You cant put in the same grade the cruelty some rituals of the Spartans with the children, women and men killed at the millions in the nazi gas chambers, or the impaling of thousands by Vlad Dracul, with the confinement of Boers in concentration camps by the British...
This kind of thread is only good to suport nacionalism and xenophobia!
In my opinion should be closed.
|
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 12:14
| Well, the thread began with Bilal Ali's statements about Germans. I don't know why the others writing here. I saw a possibility to tell you a very little about what happened with the normal people and why they did what the did and didn't do what would had been necessary. You cannot prevent such murder if you do not want to understand how such things can happen. If you say it was because the Germans are as they are and this was unic, you will cause a new holocaust somewhere in the future, somewhere in the world. Garvm, you are right in saying we shouldn't compare one crime with another. But right or wrong have nothing to do with the amount of bodies you leave behind you. I don't know if this thread supports nationalism or xenophobia. I think for such an controvers theme it's very peaceful here. Ate logo |