Military Effectiveness of the Waffen SS
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Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
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Topic: Military Effectiveness of the Waffen SS
Posted By: Brian J Checco
Subject: Military Effectiveness of the Waffen SS
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 20:27
| Everyone already knows about the atrocities committed by the SS during WWII, and this thread is not intended to be a discussion thereof. The SS also had a fierce reputation as soldiers, not just as terrorists. Apparently other soldiers feared to face them in battle, as they were rumored to be fanatical soldiers and expertly trained; but were they crack troops after the fashion of the Afrika Corps, the Falschrmjaeger, or the Panzergrenadiers, or just overly-glorified Gestapo? Were they effective in the field? Could they hold their own against crack Russian, British and American forces? What tactics did they use, how were they deployed, what sort of mobility or armor did they operate with, what was their battlefield designation? |
Replies:
Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 20:59
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Wow, a lot of questions. It really does depend on which divisions you are speaking about. Some of the Waffen SS divisions were just as good as the wehrmacht. Others less so. The fanaticism of the Waffen SS I believe comes from the battle of berlin where the SS consisted of brainwashed boys (~14-15 years old) using grenade launchers against soviet tanks and fighting quite bitterly to the end. Also from some of the more fanatical SS formations that did fight the "holy war" in the east with more zeal than the regular army tended to.
The SS panzer divisions I would say were expertly trained and some of the best of the SS divisions, (the SS panzer corps were the strategic reserve for germany in the east and later on the western front as well) on par with the wehrmacht.
As for how they fought, again depends on which divisions and where they fought, (compare ones fighting in france or russia to the balkans) overall they fought in the same manner as the regular army.
Not sure what you mean by battlefield designation, please forgive the ignorance.
 The idea that others feared to face them was mainly because the SS was also the best supplied when it came to equipment and usually fresh coming to the battle as the counter-attack spearhead. Not to mention the zeal among some of its formations for the fight.
There were upwards of 35 SS divisions, with nearly a million men having fought in the SS at some point during the war. ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann 
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 22:08
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nah there were not even 30 divisions at one time, especially not full strenght. toward the end of the war a lot of divisions were set up but only existed on paper and were sometimes not even 1000 men strong. the elite divisions like armoured divisions were feared because they had the latest equippment, but they were not necessarily the best trained soldiers of the wehrmacht.
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 00:34
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Few and divided divisions, and training superiority was often overexaggerated. They initially accepted men who were at least 6 feet tall for psychological impact... and they were well-armed and fed. I don't think there were any special training stuff... it's just that professional soldiers around the world under the influence of Nazi Germany simply were added into Hitler's idea of supersoldiers.
A little trivia. Waffen SS was divided into two groups. One who were loyal German men, and others consisting foreign soldiers with loose loyalty to Nazi ideology. Ideology and loyalty was favored rather than military skills... ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
Join us. |
Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2007 at 01:20
My apologies for not explaining myself. I meant that there were upwards of 35 Waffen SS divisions that had existed at one time or another by the end of the war. Not all at the same time.
Same goes for the almost a million men fighting in the Waffen SS; almost a million men had fought in the Waffen SS at some point during the war, not all ~900,000 of them at the same time. Hope that clarifies things.
Correction: there were almost a million men in the Waffen SS in 45'. I knew what I had said didn't seem right. ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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Posted By: Challenger2
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 13:22
I suppose as the Nazi "elite" they got the newest, best equipment first.
In the period 1939-41 the German Army had a low opinion of their abilities but their experience in Russia and elswhere, where their superior mobility and fanaticism made them a "fire brigade", to be sent into the heaviest fighting, honed their tactical skills. By 1944 I'd say they were amongst the best troops the Germans had.
As regards battlefield designation, the SS had just about every troop type from Panzer Division, through Panzergrenadier to Cavalry.
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Posted By: deadkenny
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2007 at 19:28
| Many, but certainly not all, of the Waffen SS division were 'elite' formations. In this sense they got the pick of replacements, equipment etc. For example, many 'regular' divisions were still using older tank models, in some instances even old captured French tanks, whereas the SS divisions would regularly get the latest and best models (Panthers and Tigers). One shouldn't equate the Waffen SS divisions with other SS units that were simply committers of atrocities and not real combat units at all. Of course there were other elite formations were not SS (Luftwaffe, Wehrmacht) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 00:35
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mecahnization and equipment actually differs with what division you are talking about, in general the german SS divisions, as well as many such as 11. SS Nordland were among the best equipped, others, however, were equipped somewhat like the army, these were usually later formations of foreign volunteers, try SS Galizia division for an example, they were not even totally mechanized (or really very near totally).
I must stress, as deadkenny said, The WAFFEN SS is NOT the same as the allgemeine SS who were the committers of atrocities (primarily), the Waffen SS were combat soldiers.
on the subject of fanaticism, one Heer veteran i talked to said the SS were often very much a fanatical group, and that some men in the Heer regarded them as being deangerously fanatical, however, another one I talked to said they didnt really strike him as too different, so i guess they varied. just my 2 cents ------------- |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 08:42
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A lot of correct things are said till now. If we speak of SS we have to recognize that there in not one SS. The SS is the "Schutzstaffel". That can be translated as Guardians. When it was founded, the men who could join the SS were strenghtly selected. They usually needed to be blond, blue eyed and tall and had to have an Arian passport, that means their ancestors, I don't know yet exactly, untill 1750 had to be German. Himmler tried to enlarge them to be a 2nd Wehrmacht, because a lot of Nazis didn't trust them. During the war the SS increased. There were people from all over Europe, there was even a muslim SS-Division. But this mass of soldiers didn't lift the quality up. There was a Polizeigrenadierdivision e.g. too. Here were police men forced to do their duty. At the end of the war the ss drafted soldiers from the young aged people.
The SS usually got the best material. But this wasn't the most important point. They were very encouraged, especially the officers. They led their troops from the top and not from behind and were more open for modern tactics. But unfortunately for the ss leading from top was the reason that ss officers had a very high rate of casualties. That weakend the SS troops by the years as well.
Then there was the Verfügungs-SS. They served in the KZ's. They were different to the Waffen-SS but usually men from both parts could serve in the other. When ss men were hurt or so they could be send to the Verfügungs-SS e.g. In this SS there served e.g. criminals who were let free.
I look for some more data.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 11:32
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I think they were as good or as bad as any Heer division. Pound for pound the troops of the Afrika Korps were better, their divisions were amongst the best the Germans indeed anyone ever fielded, 21st and 15th Panzer. In the case of the Waffen SS, their reputation I think was unintended; if captured they were likely to be shot outright, so they typically perferred death to surrender for them their was no difference. ------------- |
Posted By: Challenger2
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 16:29
I think you'll find waffen SS committed it's fair share of atrocities; Leibstandarte at Wormhout and again later at Malmedy, Totenkopf at Le Paradis and Das Reich at Oradour are the three that instantly come to mind in the Western theatre. I have no doubt there were many many more in the East. |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 20:10
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yes thats true, it should also be noted that Heer units alike committed actrocities. what beorna wanted to say, i guess, is that the Waffen SS was primary a combat formation and not one of ethnic cleansing. however from what i remember the SS-Verfügungstruppe was the initial name of the Waffen SS, not the KZ guards. not sure what they were called specifically but the SS units intended for ethnic cleansing were called Einsatzgruppen. ------------- |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 10:21
You're right, I'm sorry. I didn't care about these theme for long. The Verfügungs-SS is the later Waffen-SS (since 1940). What I meant is the Totenkopf-SS. They looked for the KZs. They started in 1933 under SS-Standartenführer (colonel) Eicke in Dachau. 1934 became Eike, as Brigadeführer (brigadier general), inspector of the KZs and leader of the Totenkopf-SS. So these parts were no longer under the control of the Allgemeine SS (common SS). These troops did not only serve in the KZs. They joined the occupation of Austria, the Sudetenland and of CSR. They educated the members of the Allgemeine SS as well. When the war started about 40.000 reservists from the Allgemeine SS were drafted by the Totenkopf-SS. 6.500 man from the Totenkopf-SS were installed as SS-Totenkopf-Division under SS-Gruppenführer Eicke. A short time before the war with the SU the Totenkopf-troops were included in the Waffen-SS. For the KZs they use members of the Allgemeine SS. When the casualties increased, the most members were send to the front. Members of the SA, wounded soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS were send to the KZ troops.
The SS was founded to protect Hitler and other prominent Nazis. It was a small group during a lot of years. But in January 1933 it increased to 50.000 men. That wasn't good for the high standard. So a new unit was created, the Leibstandarte. There was a Politische Bereitschaft troop , too. So beside of the Allgemeine SS there were three other units. They weren't stronger than an Inf.Reg in 1934. They weren't good educated in warfare and had no good equipment. After the Röhm-Putsch it changed. In march 1935 he ordered the Verfügungs-SS as fighting division, but the 1st division was installed 1939. After the retiring of Fritsch and Blomberg Hitler made the SS to a combat unit beside the Wehrmacht. There were about 25.000 men for the Verfügungs-SS in 1939. In 1940 there were about 150.000 SS men, 1942 about 200.000 an d1943 about 350.000 men. The totenkopf-SS men had to be taller than 1,70 and those of the Verfügungs-SS and of Leibstandarte had to be between 17 and 22 and taller than 1,70, sometimes 1,68. Only the Elite-Leibstandarte was searching for men taller than 1,80. There were a lot of voluntaries for the Waffen-SS but not for the Totenkopf-SS, so old men of the Allgemeine SS were commanded to them.
Before the war the SS soldiers for the Leibstandarte had to be taller than 1,80m, the other had to be taller than 1,78m, untill 1936 there was no man allowed to join the SS with a plombed tooth. Later there were two Kosak-Cavalery-Divisions, one East-Turkish unit, a Caucasian unit, a Serbian Voluntary corps, an Indish Legion, a British Free corps, romanian and bulgarian Regiments, a norvegian batallion, a lethuanian and aestonian grenadier division, the SS-Mountain-division Skanderbeg and Kama from Albania and Croatia, they were later transformed to the SS voluntary-Grenadier division Nederland, there were to hungarian divisions, to from Belgium, two Russian and one french. But sometimes the name division is not really correct, because they just had the amount of regiments.
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 19:59
actually only a few of those foreigners you mentioned were part of the Waffen SS but the Heer. only in 1945 it was descided that all foreign contingents were to be part of the Waffen SS. the Heer had troops from Cossacks, Turkic people, Uralic people, Caucasian people, Russians, Croats, Spanish, Indians and Arabs. as for serbians, i've never heard that Serbians officially were part of the Wehrmacht other than in local auxiliary troops. foreign SS troops were mostly from benelux, france, scandinavia, italy, hungary, baltics, bosnia, albania, ukraine and Belorussia and a minor contingent from Romania. not sure if the british Free corps was Heer or Waffen SS. ------------- |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 09:06
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It was the Serbische SS-Freiwilligenkorps, but you're right there were only a few Serbians. There was also the British Freecorps. From 38 SS-Divisions in 1945 there was no one without foreigner and 19 Divisions had more foreigners than Germans. About 500.000 foreigners served in the SS during WWII. About 125.000 of these came from Western Europe, most of these were voluntaries. About 60.000 of these were commanded 1943 from the Wehrmacht to the SS, or were asked to change a life as recruted workers with such of a soldier. Among the western Europeans were 50.000 Dutch, 40.000 people from Belgium (Vlamish and Wallons), 20.000 from France, from Danmark and Norway about 6.000 and 1200 from Switzerland, Sveden, Luxemburg, Danmark (500), Britain. About 1000 finnish soldiers served until 1943 in the SS.
In eastern Europe served 42000 Volksdeutsche from Hungary, about 20.000 from Serbia, 54000 from Romania and 17000 from Croatia.
There wer about 20.000 voluntaries from Estonia and Lethuania. There was a muslim-division wich was planned with 26000 men, but I don't know hom many served laster. In 1943 there were 100.000 voluntary Ukrainians, but just only 30.000 joined the SS.
In 1941 the Indian Legion was build, with EIGHT men, it became bigger as a fact of british POWs until a maximum of 2000 soldiers. The Britisch Freecorps started in 1944 under John Amery, a son of one of Churchill's ministers. There were about 50 voluntaries, but the corps was not more than an instrument of propaganda.
The motivation of these soldiers was very different. It was sometimes the believing to the Nazi movement, a lot of adventures, hopeless people, people who hated the Bolschewists or the Serbians and so on.
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Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 10:57
You probably mean Latvia instead of "Lethuania". In total there were around 80000 Latvians and 30000 Estonians fighting for Nazi Germany in SS units. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 11:15
| Yes, sorry axeman. Latvia. |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 19:58
wasn't there also a Lithuanian SS? ------------- |
Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 00:15
No, though I don't know why. |
Posted By: Challenger2
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2007 at 17:45
No Baltic Germans in Lithuania as opposed to Latvia and Estonia? Just a thought. |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2007 at 22:12
The numbers for Western Europe seem a little high. German officials were known to exaggerate the number of volunteers through creative counting methods. For example, Western European recruits enlisted for contracts. If the same soldier extended his contract, he was counted again as a new volunteer. This same man may have already been counted once before he even enlisted by joining a right wing, German sponsored sports association etc. .) Thus one volunteer could be counted as three.
I think that it fielded about 8,000 Muslims and Croats. When in the Balkans, the division quickly developed a bad reputation for discipline. The division was then moved to France for anti partisan duties. Soon after the move, the division mutinied and some German officers and NCOS were killed. After the mutiny, the unit was disbanded. |
Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2008 at 01:01
Probably, but at the same time there were SS units from lands which didn't have indigenous German population like Russian, Albanian, Belorussian, Ukrainian, Croatian units. The Baltic SS units were formed later during the German uccopation and in that time there were no Baltic Germans in Baltic states. They left in 1939 according to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2008 at 16:57
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i actually noticed that the Soviet Union themself had quite numerous Lithuanians (including some who got awarded Hero of the Soviet Union) amongst their soldiers, though i don't udnerstand why Lithuanians, as opposed to Latvians and Estonians who all three had been invaded and annexed by the SU, cooperated with their masters. Batlic Germans have been repatriated to Germany in 1939 according to the Hitler-Stalin pact, the predecessor of the better known Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2008 at 17:18
The Lithuanians also supplied a good number of recruits for auxiliary SS formations. Following the Soviet victory, Lithuanian "Forest Brothers" resisted both Russian and Pro Soviet Lithuanians until the early 1950s. It is interesting that the Soviets had more support in Lithuania than the other two states. Several large Jewish resistance groups were able to survive in Lithuania as well. |
Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2008 at 17:38
Probably, because after Poland was smashed by both sides - the Soviets gave part of the Vilnius region back to Lithuania (For the most of the 20 and 30 ties Lithuania had very bad relationships with Poland due to Vilnius region issue). But then again Lithuanian partisans showed fiercer and longer resistance to Soviet occupation compared with other Baltic states. The last "Forest brother" is said to come out of the forests when Lithuania regained independence. |
Posted By: Svyturys
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2008 at 20:55
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Why there were no Lithuanian SS? Because lithuanians didn't want to go. It was unlucky for germans who wanted to create such a mob. Later germans changed them tactic and let lithuanians to have them own forces. And it was lucky. Then again, Germany wanted to incorporate that mob to SS police. But again... LITHUANIANS JUST LOVE FREEDOM.
Hey. Why do you, Temujin, say that lithuanians didn't make resistence agains USSR? Just try google to read about lithuanian partisans that were best organised and strongest amongst three Baltic countries. They controlled many villages, forests. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOLNWtqafdI - something for education.. ------------- Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2008 at 08:10
Not true,by 43 there 'was' a lithuanian SS regiment under Voldemars Veiss, at one point he became commander of the second lithuanian SS brigade, stand by as i find more data.
It appears that there were 'some' lithuanian SS units, the exception from otherv non-german SS units was that the lithuanians were allowed to keep lithuanian officers and lithuanian command chain ( normally everyone above captain would be german ).
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Posted By: Svyturys
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2008 at 19:17
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http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voldemārs_Veiss
As we see he was working in Latvia, not Lithuania. ;) General Plechavičius refused germans try to incorporate that lithuanian mob to german police and he was arrested, and mob of lithuanians was demilitarized. ------------- Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2008 at 22:02
Thats actually a general practice of nazi high command, all foreign divisions were to serve abroad.
Also there were two more lithuanian brigades that i know of, both served as part of SS occupation forces but as far as i know none of them ever took part in any of the atrocities.
Back to the topic.
The SS if we must generalize were good, not so much by training but because when other formations received kids and elderly they'd get the few remaining healthy young men, also they'd be the first to get best equipment which obviously made them particulary effective.
However apart from several specific units SS were never an absolute elite they're often portrayed, elements of wehrmacht were far more effective.
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2008 at 22:33
those formations of the Heer include the units Großdeutschland, Brandenburg, Panzer Lehr and Feldherrenhalle. other than that the Hermann Göring unit, which belongs to the Luftwaffe.
i knew about the forest brothers, i just assumed that Lithuanians were not a big part of it. also i recently read a book about female heroes of the soviet union and i found a lithuanian partisan amongst them, another reason why i assumed Lithuania was much more pro-Soviet than pro-German. ------------- |
Posted By: Svyturys
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 15:32
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Also there were two more lithuanian brigades that i know of, both served as part of SS occupation forces but as far as i know none of them ever took part in any of the atrocities.
Come on. Give us a links that prooves it, cause i have never heard about it. We here know fact that here germans attemps had no lucky. ------------- Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 18:13
True to a degree, Germans never managed to press Lithuanians into active duty, the volunteers did make up a better part of two SS AA brigades serving on the eastern front ( mark you they were not officially lithuanian brigades but most of their troops were lithuanian ).
Stand by for sources it will take some scanning and googling since the subject is an obscure one and lithuanian sources lie blatantly ( which is stupid by the way since the kind of independency they showed the lithuanians never partook in any of the atrocities ).
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 17:37
Actually, Bosnian part n SS forces, known as Handzar Divizija or 13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar, at the beginning of recruitment (after Himmler's recommendation and Hitler's approval on 13th February 1943.) had around 8-9 thousands men, and around the end of the year 1943. number increased to over 21 000 men. (some sources mentioned a number of 25-26 thousands, but number of 21 000 is used in 90% cases) Majority were Bosnian Muslims, and due to some agreement with Pavelic's NDH (Independent State of Croatia - Hitler's puppet state on Balkans), division was also allowed to have 10% Catholics. Numbers are more or less correct, so it has around 90% of Bosniaks and around 10% Croats.
Comanders were:
1. SS-Obergruppenführer Artur Phelps (in charge of raising this division, from 10 February 1943... replaced after weak results of the first recruitment)
2. SS-Oberführer Herbert von Obwurzer (1 April 1943 - 9 August 1943) 3. SS-Gruppenführer Karl-Gustav Sauberzweig (9 August 1943 - June 1944) 4. SS-Brigadeführer Desiderius Hampel (June 1944 - 8 May 1945) Even tho that Bosnian Waffen SS Handschar Division was mostly made of men who wanted to fight in their own land and were originally recruited to fight against Muslim and Serb Partisans in Bosnia, Division was sent to France and garrisoned in Villefranche-de-Rouergue.
On September 17th 1943, a group of Bosniak and Croat recruits started a mutiny with a main plan to reach and join western Allies, and they succeeded to capture most of Germans and then they executed five German officers and for a short while they succeeded to "liberate" Villefranche-de-Rouergue, so, as I mentioned, for a short while it became "first free city in France"... There is a book about these events - "Les révoltés de Villefranche", and after liberation of France, in Villefranche-de-Rouergue one street got their name, as a tribute to their brave act.
However, mutineers didn't get enough men on their side, so Germans, together with Bosniaks who didn't support this revolt, finally took over the Division again, and executed all leading mutineers, and then, after Germans got convinced that these men were in fact communists, they sent around 800 other suspected Handschar Division soldiers to Germany for "labor service". Of those, 265 who refused to work were sent to Neuengamme Concentration Camp where most of them died.
After this Handschar Division got back home and rest of the war they fought Partisans in north-eastern Bosnia and in Srem, and participated in Wegweiser, Save, Osterei, Maibaum, Maiglöckchen, Vollmond, Fliegenfänger, Heidrose and Hackfleisch operations from February to September of 1944.
Another attempt of making a new SS Division, called "Kama", was never accomplished and the parts of that divisions (that was already in making) were later added to Handschar Division.
Apart of SS Handschar Division, it is believed that on the territory of ex Yugoslavia there were around 50-60 000 men who were part of different SS units, such as SS Handschar Division, SS Prinz Eugen Division(made mostly of Romanian and Yugoslavian volksdeutscher, SS Skenderbeg division and also "Serbisches Freiwilligen Korps".
Someone asked if this "Serbisches Freiwilligen Korps" was part of SS... Well at the begining they didn't... till the autumn 1944. when they were officially added to SS... And the number of men, in different sources goes from 12 thousands to 18-20 thousands, but number of 15 000 is most mentioned in literature.
I made it as simple as i could, and I hope this post put at least little bit of "light" on the SS units in ex Yu.
These are some photos of SS Handschar division:
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/4194/han14my8.jpg - http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/4194/han14my8.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2179/han11fz3.jpg - http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2179/han11fz3.jpg
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2971/han18sm8.jpg - http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2971/han18sm8.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2666/han17db5.jpg - http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2666/han17db5.jpg
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4732/ha02ma6.jpg - http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4732/ha02ma6.jpg
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4581/hanscharcollar1fs4.jpg - http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4581/hanscharcollar1fs4.jpg
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Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 04:07
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Does anyone have any info on Greek volunteers in the SS?
------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |