Did ancient Iranians have blue eyes and red hairs?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26885
Printed Date: 21-May-2024 at 15:53
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Topic: Did ancient Iranians have blue eyes and red hairs?
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: Did ancient Iranians have blue eyes and red hairs?
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 21:29
By ancient Iranians, I mean original Iranian speaking people, not the people of Iran, Afghanistan, ...
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Replies:
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 21:44
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So what if some of them did? It is not grounds for a wholesale revision of the history of Iran or ancient Persia. Does the fact that some of them might have had blue eyes or red hair change anything that they did?
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 23:02
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They had purple eyes and pink hair
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 00:46
| What do blue eyes and red hair have to do with anything historical? |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 01:03
I had once read about such a race of people- they had such a thilly language  
I think this has a lot to do with the Indo European theory and obviously over time the intermixed with other races, The Tarim basin mommies demonstrate how far east these Indo European tribes came. Such a question would take a lot of research to really answer but it is a good topic. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 01:29
Your question is not clear, Cyrus. Certainly there were some elements in the Iranian society having such traits. But the majority were dark-haired and dark-eyed.
Regards ------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: Ali
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 04:32
Yes they did. And many modern-day Persians also have blue eyes and red hair. And so do many Afghans, and Kurds and North-West Pakistanis, and Kashmiris. And you ask this because? |
Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 04:45
Yes, we did have, but now the majority have dark hair and dark eyes. Half of my cousins have light hair and light eyes, but not me. One of my cousin had beautiful blue eyes and blond hair when he was a kid now his hair is brown and his eyes are darker; I wonder why? 
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 06:57
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I think the important question is that from what region the original Iranian-speaking people migrated to the Iranian plateau, it could be from the southern Europe and Greece throuh Anatolia, or the eastern Europe throuh the Caucasus, or from the east, somewhere in Kazakhstan and Central Asia or northern China where Tocharians and Yueh-chih lived, or maybe even from the south throuh the Persian gulf! -------------
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 08:19
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It's hard to know actually. A portrait of an iranian with those characteristics cannot be the main basis of such a hypothesis. Maybe such people were rare and therefore popular to be depicted. However, these characteristics you mention fit the Thracians. They were supposed to be redheads. In the case of the Iranians, maybe there was not a standard complexion. What if you had light and fair people? Maybe what became to be the iranian speaking people in prehistoric times, was a mix of 2 or different people that created diversity. You never know. -------------  
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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 08:27
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I'm absolutely certain some Iranians had light hair and blue eyes, just like some Iranians do today, but I see no reason to believe it was any more common back then. Since rare traits are often considered more desirable (light skin, light hair, blue eyes etc.) they will be overrepresented in art, so pictures like those are nothing to go by. Judging by art you'd have to conclude that the majority of Renaissance Italians were blonde and blue-eyed, that ancient Greeks were all heavily muscled and the Japanese all had chalkwhite skin. ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 09:49
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I believe the aryanization of the native people of Iran was so much more culturally than ethnically, so there is no reason that modern people of Iran look like the original Aryan immigrants, except a small minority, but there was certainly a reason that we see Rustam, the Scythian national hero of Iran, had red hair and Herodotus says about Scythians "they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair" (herodotus 4:108) -------------
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 12:11
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I thought that the "supposed" Indo-European homeland was in Central Asia, within the borders of what is today Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikstan etc. From there, the proto Indo-european speakers migrated south to Persia and India, and westwards into Europe; where local inhabitants adopted their language. I wouldn't be surprised if Ancient Iranians, or proto indo-european speakers, had blond hair and blue eyes among them; because today, many people living in the same region, such as many Tajiks, some Afghans, and even some of the Turkic nationalities such as Kazakh and Kirgyz, also have these traits; but I would very much doubt that the percentage of "blonds" was considerably greater than what you have among these people today. Roman sources did describe the ancient Iranian Alans as having "dirty yellow" hair and ugly facial features; but most of these descriptions could have been exagerated because steppe people barely lived up to Mediterranean standards of beauty. The modern-day descendants of ancient Alans are supposed to be the Ossetians, and few of them are blond. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 12:15
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I think that Renaissance Italians as Reginmund says are a perfect example. It's so close to our time but still pretty far from reality. Now, Scythians, lived in northern areas compared to people living in Iran which means that the climate did have an effect after many generations. If the original Iranian speaking people came from the area of Scythia, then probably Herodotus quote would apply to them as well. Also, what if the iranic speaking people of Scythia had not 100% Iranic speaking background but they were Iranized. Maybe the natives of Scythia (that with the addition of iranic speakers became the Scythians) were light. I think what we're talking here is prehistory, so we can't give a certain answer. -------------
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 12:15
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Who knows, but the interesting fact is, that even some negroid people have blond hair (some tribe on one of the Solomon Islands).
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 13:27
All of these are conventional theories of Indo-European migrations. Of course, these all are very possible, especially the 2d and the 3d.
But this one is unlikely ------------- Σαυρομάτης 
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Posted By: Ardashir
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 15:36
QUOTE=Cyrus Shahmiri]I believe the aryanization of the native people of Iran was so much more culturally than ethnically, so there is no reason that modern people of Iran look like the original Aryan immigrants, except a small minority, but there was certainly a reason that we see Rustam, the Scythian national hero of Iran, had red hair and Herodotus says about Scythians "they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair" (herodotus 4:108)[/QUOTE]
I see that your obsession with Rustam's red hair is not over yet, Cyrus. I showed you that Fereidun's hair and eyes were BLACK, that Jamshid's doughters both had BLACK hair and eyes and that Rustam's own mother (Rudabeh) had BLACK hair and eyes and that his father (Zaal) had BLACK eyes and WHITE hair (strangly tho). So, why do you keep ignoring these evidences and stick to base your theory on a single case? I am afraid you can't even read Shahnamed in Persian properly, as you misinterpretated KAFUR once.
BTW, as you hopefully know, Rustam was a Scythian, a stepp people. Stepp people used to form confederations and many tribes who might have had aliegn racial affinities usually joined these socio-political entities as the case of Hun confederation clearly shows. So, we can't base our theories on anthropological reports of step people. BTW, this is a reconstruction of a Scythian man from Ukraine:
 I rest my case here.
------------- http://khakokhoon.blogfa.com |
Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 17:31
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There are blonds etc...in Iran but they are from the Northern part of country. Wich means Azeri not Persian. But seriously, most of blonds in Iran are Azeri. Its also well known in iran. There are of course Persians too, but not much. ------------- |
Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 17:33
What is this original speaking people thing? People of Iran and A-stan are unoriginal Iranian speaking peopls? ------------- |
Posted By: Ali
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 17:36
Most likely from the Afghanistan-Pakistan Hindu Kush mountain range.
Genetic evidence has rendered the european explanation highly improbable. This is the year 2009. Which decade (or century) are you posting from?
Yes, from the east. Afghanistan/Pakistan border region appears to be the best candidate so far. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 18:09
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It is really possible that ancient Scythians had not actually bright red hair, the Persian word "color" is "rang", so the Middle Persian word "Hna-rangi" meant "Color of Henna", this word was changed to "Narangi" and then arabicized as modern Persian "Narenji", the English word "Orange" comes from this word, and you can read about Henna:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Henna&searchmode=none - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Henna&searchmode=none
Dying hair with henna (hanabandan) is a very ancient Iranian tradition.
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Posted By: Ali
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 18:17
Light hair or light eyes tend to be "recessive" traits. Dark hair and eyes tend to be "dominant" traits. For example, since many of your cousins have light eyes, there is a good chance (50%) that you could be carrying the gene (or allele) for blue eyes (since you presumably have the same grandparents or great grand-parents as your cousins). However because you also carry the dominant gene for dark eyes (let's call this the "Br" allele), the blue-eyed trait ("Bl" allele) does not show up physically in your phenotype (even though your genotype may carry it). Your genotype would be "BrBl" and you are dark-eyed as a result because "Br" (dark eyes) is the dominant trait. Only if the two recessive alleles had come together as "BlBl" (one each from your father and mother), would you have had blue eyes. However, if you were to marry a dark-eyed woman, who (presumably like yourself) also carried a recessive allele for blue eyes, there is a 25 % chance that your offspring will have blue eyes, even though both parents are dark-eyed. This happened in the case of one of my cousins who has medium-brown eyes. However, he inherited an allele for grey-eyes from my grey-eyed grandfather. My cousin's spouse, also had medium-hazel brown eyes and has a blue-eyed ancestor. It turns out, that 3 out of 4 of my cousin's children were born with blue eyes, even though both parents were brown-eyed. The children matched their parents in just about every other aspect of physical appearance, except for eye-colour. This is because both parents carried a recessive allele (genotype) for light-coloured eyes. Hence, recessive traits have a resilience of their own. |
Posted By: Ali
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 18:36
Most likely from the Afghanistan-Pakistan Hindu Kush mountain range. The ancient Greeks knew this range as "Caucasus Indicus".
Genetic evidence has rendered the european explanation highly improbable. Incidentally, do you know anything about the genetics of Europeans? Also, do you know the difference between brachycephalic and dolichocephalic?
From the "east". Afghanistan/Pakistan border region appears to be the best candidate so far. Genetics and anthropometry seem to confirm this. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 18:39
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http://www.redheads.ie/Origins-Red-Hair.htm -
It is good to read about the origins of red hair in a website about it:
http://www.redheads.ie/Origins-Red-Hair.htm
 The Origins of Red Hair
Red hair is often assumed to have emerged with the Celts, but the gene for redheadedness existed long before the Celts came into being, at the start of the first millennium BC around the headwaters of the Rhine, the Rhone and the Danube. One theory is that red hair arrived in Europe with the Iranic-speaking steppe tribes who lived the areas north of and around the Black Sea from 4,000 years ago to the 6th century. Today, there is a surprising number of redheads in Afghanistan, Iran and the Urals, as well as in Azerbaijan and Georgia. It is possible that this "Iranic" ginger trait was transferred to other populations, including the Celts, whose original hair color was various shades of brown and black in general. -------------
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Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 20:46
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Interesting one Cyrus. So what can be source of the red hair in Azerbaijan and Georgia? Far as i know, most of the red hair people are to be found in Ukraine. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 21:45
I wonder what is the source of this information, This is the first time I hear this. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 22:37
That's a very interesting theory, Cyrus. I wonder if you have any statistical data on what percentage of people in these regions have red hair, it would be interesting to compare those statistics with those of other areas. According the the Guiness Book of World Records, the highest percentage of redheads in any population is that of Scotland, where one in every eight people has red hair. We know now through genetic testing the the British people are largely related to those living in norther Iberia (Spain), and that their ancestors migrated from there to Britain as the last ice age ended. Migration of Iranic peoples to Britain may be one theory - we do know that the Romans settled some Sarmatian mercenaries in the area. Or perhaps a separate gene responsible for red hair developed independently among the people who migrated to Britain from Spain. As I am not a geneticist, I cannot say for sure. ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 23:09
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It is interesting to read it: http://www.iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/ - http://www.iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/ -> Red-haired Gutians As you read ancient Babylonian tablets talk about the sale of slaves of the blonde race of the Guti from the north of Khuzestan, the name of the first known Guti king is Sharlak, that is similar to Sherlock (OE Schirloc) which means "blond haired"!
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Posted By: Ali
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 03:14
There is an interesting quote from the website you cite above: http://www.iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians/ - http://www.iranian.com/History/2005/March/Gutians "According to linguistics and internal evidence of the Avesta, the Irano-Aryan language family originated high in the splendid Hind Kush or "Indian Kushana" mountains of Afghanistan. Historical data indicates that one of these Proto-Iranic-speaking tribes was denominated 'Gut' or 'Got'. This ancient Iranic root denominated "warrior", as the erudite Waddell notes, "the affixed title of Gut or "Goth" or 'Warrior'" (Waddell 1929, p.114)" |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 09:02
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Before we even go there though; despite sharing a somewhat similar name these Gut/Goth people have nothing to do with the Germanic tribe of the Goths, who did not emerge until millenniums later. And before you say it's redundant to point this out, take a look at some of the farfetched etymologically based theories forwarded on AE and you will understand. The Guti in question here are an Iranian mountain people of ancient Mesopotamia who lived primarily around Hamadan in the Zagros Range. They are known for having invaded Babylon and overthrown the Akkadian empire. The Guti then ruled parts of the area for about a century. ------------- |