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Star of Bethlehem

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
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Printed Date: 03-May-2024 at 13:20
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Topic: Star of Bethlehem
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Subject: Star of Bethlehem
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2018 at 14:40
Can we nail down the correct date of Jesus Christ's birth (sometime between 12 bc & 1 ad) re the various details of the star of Bethlehem, the census, Cyrinus, Herod, the eclipse, slaughter of babies/children of Ramah, time on Egypt, birth of John the Baptist, Nazareth, etc?

I saw an article on Sirius recently which made me wonder if this star is connected somehow with the star of Bethlehem?
http://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/what-so-special-about-sirius-dog-star-009232

Genesis 1:14 God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to
        divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs,
        and for seasons, and for days and years;
1:16 .... He also made the stars.

Genesis 37:9 He [Joseph] dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brothers,
        and said, "Behold, I have dreamed yet another dream:
        and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed
        down to me."

Numbers 24:17 .... A star [kochab?] will come out of Jacob [Khufu/Cheops].  A scepter will rise out
        of Israel, and shall strike through the corners of Moab,
        and break down all the sons of Sheth.
24:19 Out of Jacob shall one have dominion....

Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days
        of Herod the king, behold, wise men [The word for "wise men"
        (magi) can also mean teachers, scientists, physicians,
        astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, or sorcerers.]
        from the east came to Jerusalem, saying,
2:2 "Where is he who is born King of the Jews?  For we saw his star
        in the east (or in the first rays of dawn), and have come to worship him."
2:3 When Herod the king heard it, he was troubled, and all
        Jerusalem with him.
2:7 Then Herod secretly called the wise men, and learned from them
        exactly what time the star appeared.
2:9 They, having heard the king, went their way; and behold,
        the star, which they saw in the east, went before them,
        until it came and stood over where the young child was.
2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy.

( Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain
        priest named Zacharias, of the priestly division of Abijah. ....
1:8 Now it happened, while he executed the priest's office before
        God in the order of his division,
1:9 according to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was
        to enter into the temple of the Lord and burn incense.
1:11 An angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right
        side of the altar of incense.
1:26 Now in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God
        to a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
1:27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph,
        of the house of David.  The virgin's name was Mary.
1:36 Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son
        in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who
        was called barren.
1:56 Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned
        to her house.
2:1 Now it happened in those days, that a decree went out from
        Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled.
2:2 This was the first enrollment made when Quirinius was
        governor of Syria.
2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth,
        into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem,
        because he was of the house and family of David;
2:5 to enroll himself with Mary, who was pledged to be married
        to him as wife, being pregnant.
2:6 It happened, while they were there, that the day had come
        that she should give birth.
2:7 She brought forth her firstborn son, and she wrapped him
        in bands of cloth, and laid him in a feeding trough,
        because there was no room for them in the inn.
2:8 There were shepherds in the same country staying in the field,
        and keeping watch by night over their flock.
2:9 Behold, an angel of the Lord stood by them, and the glory
        of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.
2:10 The angel said to them, "Don't be afraid, for behold, I bring
        you good news of great joy which will be to all the people.
2:11 For there is born to you, this day, in the city of David,
        a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
2:12 This is the sign to you:  you will find a baby wrapped in strips
        of cloth, lying in a feeding trough."
2:13 Suddenly, there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly
        army praising God, and saying,
2:14 "Glory to God in the highest, on earth peace, good will toward men."
2:15 It happened, when the angels went away from them into the sky,
        that the shepherds said one to another, "Let's go
        to Bethlehem, now, and see this thing that has happened,
        which the Lord has made known to us."
2:16 They came with haste, and found both Mary and Joseph,
        and the baby was lying in the feeding trough.
2:17 When they saw it, they publicized widely the saying which was
        spoken to them about this child.
2:20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for
        all the things that they had heard and seen, just as it
        was told them.
2:22 When the days of their purification according to the law
        of Moses were fulfilled, they brought him up to Jerusalem,
        to present him to the Lord
2:25 Behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon.
        This man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation
        of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.
2:26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should
        not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.{"Christ"
        (Greek) and "Messiah" (Hebrew) both mean "Anointed One"}
2:27 He came in the Spirit into the temple.  When the parents
        brought in the child, Jesus, that they might do concerning
        him according to the custom of the law,
2:28 then he received him into his arms....
2:36 There was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel,
        of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived
        with a husband seven years from her virginity,
2:37 and she had been a widow for about eighty-four years)....
2:38 Coming up at that very hour, she gave thanks to the Lord,
        and spoke of him to all those who were looking for
        redemption in Jerusalem.
2:39 When they had accomplished all things that were according
        to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their
        own city, Nazareth.
2:42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem
        according to the custom of the feast,
2:43 and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning,
        the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem.  ....
2:46 It happened after three days they found him in the temple,
        sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them,
        and asking them questions.
3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,
        Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch
        of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region
        of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene,
3:2 in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God
        came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.
3:3 He came into all the region around the Jordan, preaching the
        baptism of repentance for remission of sins.
3:23 Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years old.... )

2 Peter 1:19 ... until the day dawns,
        and the morning star arises in your hearts....

Revelation/Apocalypse 2:28 and I will give him the morning star.
22:16 I, Jesus....  I am the root and the offspring of David;
        the Bright and Morning Star."

"Every man and woman is a star".

"... the point of the ecliptic or degree of the zodiac which is nearest the eastern horizon at the time of birth is called the ascendant, and the easternmost star represents the house of life.... This is a person's strongest star, and when his outlook is bright, we say his star is in the ascendant."
"... those leading stars which are above the horizon at a person's birth influence his life...."

Jewish calendar:
  Rosh Hashanah / new year - 1 Nisan / March 17
[preparation - 13 nisan?]
Pesach/passover/paschal - 14 Nisan / March 31
paschal Feast of Unleavened Bread beg - 14/15 Nisan / March 31
First Fruits of barley offering - 15/16 Nisan / April 3
Feast of Unleavened Bread concl. - 20/21 nisan / April 7
2nd passover - 14 zif/iyyar
lagB'omer / counting omer 50 days pesach to shavot
Shavuot/pentecost/ffowh 6 sivan / May 22?
taking of Jerusalem 7/17 thammuz
fast/destruction of Temple/tishaB'av 7/9 ab/aviv
  Yom Teruah/trumps/Rosh Hashanah/New Yr 1 tisri / Sep 10
Yom Kippur/day of atonement 10 tisri / Sep 19
Sukkot/tabernacles/booths/ffw&o 15-21 tisri / Sep 24
Last Great Day # tisri / Oct 1
Hanukkah/lights/dedication (Maccabees) 25 chislev / Dec 1-9
siege Jerusalem 7 tebheth
tuB'shvat/planting trees lat Jan / ear Feb
feast of purim 14/15 Adar
Fast of Esther  11 veadar / Feb 16
Purim (Esther) - 14/15 veadar / Feb 17-19

Star of Bethlehem timeline:
11 stars bow to 1 star (Joseph)
Sphinx
"A star [kocab?] shall come out of Jacob." (Balaam prophecy)
Venus tablets of Ammisaduga
Daniel
magi
[66 bc Jupiter & Saturn?]
63 bc pubic portent (birth Augustus)?
44 bc / [c 24 bc] Caesar's comet
40-4/1 bc Herod the Great (eclipse shortly before death)?
19 bc - ad 14 Augustus Caesar.
[17 bce comet?]
12 bc census Dio Cassius?
12/11 bc Halley's Aug 25th 56/63 days China?
10-7 bc & ad 6-7-12 Cyrinus
9 bc Uranus & Saturn?
8 bc census (3 x)
7 bc census
7/6 bc/bce conjunction of (Mars &) Jupiter & Saturn (3 x in Pisces) 5 months in (20th/end Feb, 12th Apr), 20/21/29th May, sep / (2)3rd Oct, 4th Dec, (end Jan)? *
6 bc double occultation of Jupiter by Moon close to sun in Aries 17 April?
6 bc (Sun &) Jupiter & Moon & Saturn in Aries (Ven & Mars in neighbouring constellations) 6/17 Apr.
6 bc conjunction Uranus & Venus?
5 bc object/comet/nova (70 days, China/Korea)?
4 bc comet with no tail that didn't move (Korean)?
ca 4 bc comet & conjunction several planets in Pisces (DSS)? *
4 bc Simon of Perea
4 bc lunar eclipse 13/15 Mar?
(3 bc conjunction of Venus & Saturn (in eastern sky) in 12 Jun?)
(3 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus in Leo in 12th Aug?) *
3 bc conjunction Venus & Mercury 31 Aug?
3 bc "census" (mass oath, Aug). *
[3-2 bc 7 conjunctions Jupiter & Regulus?]
3-2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Regulus in Leo (1st of 3 x over 8 mo) between 14 Sept 3 bc & Jun 2 bc? *
2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus near Regulus in Leo in [West at] sunset in 17 Jun?
2 bc Venus rose to mark sceptre in Leo 18/20/24 Aug? *
2 bc Jupiter stationary 25 Dec
[1 bc Jupiter & Venus in Virgo in sw [July]?
[0 bc(e) none in yr / no yr.]
1 ad Venus rose in Aries 27 Mar?
6-7-12 ad Cyrinus
6/7 ad/ce census (Judas 6 ad)
[ad 15 Tiberias reign began?]
15-37 saying of 'Tammuz' that "great Pan is dead" in the reign of Tiberias
20 census
"27"/28/29 ad 15th yr Tiberias;
31 ad Mar 4/5 "ladder formed by all wandering  stars";
31 ad Aug 15 "Venus rose in sextans (included as part of Leo)";
32 ad darkness/eclipse (Thallus/Africanus); 
33 ad fri 3rd Apr "eclipse/blood-moon" (Crucifiction)?
33 ad (19 Mar-)5 Apr "Venus (& sun) rose in Pisces" (JC resurrection).
34 census [tax?]
"35 British evangelised"
36 Pilate rule ends.
37 Tiberias reign ends.
46 famine
66 ad Halley's comet (Nero/Tiridates)
Vespasian "a number of omens, oracles, and portents"
69/70 ad Vespasian ascession
70 destruction Jerusalem.
94 Flavius Josephus
312 indiction 1/25 Sept / 1 Jan (15 yrs cycle)
c 5th/6th cent ad Pendragon comet
527/532 Dionysius Exiguus
1006 SN1006 brightest stellar event ever (Ibn Ridwan & Chinese)
[1603 ad conjunction (Mercury,) Jupiter & Saturn in Pisces (Kepler).]

Sphinx = lion (of Judah Gen 49)
Sphinx = head of Joseph Gen 49
Sphinx = east
"Sphinx = dog"?
Anubis = dog.
Sirius = dog star.
Leo = lion
Regulus = little king
Virgo = virgin
Saturn = sabbath
Saturn/Kronos = Jacob/Abraham
Jupiter = king
Jupiter = Jeoud/Judah
Aries = ram = lamb
Pisces = fish
Moon/lunar = Semitic/Jewish.

Referencce list of stars (by constellation) :

Mezarim: UrsaMinor/littlebear/LittleDipper: Kocab; Polaris/polestar/northstar/TaiYi/TouMu, Pherkad, Yildun.

Draco/dragon/Nahash: Eltanin, AlphaDraconis/Reret, Thuban, Giausar, Kuma, Rastaban, Taiyi, Tianyi, Aldhibah, Arrakis, Alsafi, Altais, Athebyne, Dziban, Edasich, Eltanin, Fafnir, Grumium.

QuadransMuralis.

Bootes/Herdsman: Arcturus, Izar, Alkalurops, AsellusPrimus, Merga, Muphrid, Nekkar, Seginus, Xuange.

Lyra/lyre: Vega, Aladfar, Alathfar, Sheliak, Sulafat.

Cepheus: GarnetStar, Alderamin, Alfirk, AlKalbalRai, Errai, Kurhah.

Cygnus/Swan: Deneb, Sadr, Aljanah, Azelfafage, Albireo.

Delphinus:RhoAquilae, Musica, Rotanev, Sualocin, Aldulfin.

Mezarim: UrsaMajor/Plough/(Charles)Wain/Callisto/BigDipper/Meskhet/TouMu: Alkaid, Mizar, Alioth, Dubhe, Merak, Phecda, Alcor, Alkaphrah, AlulaAustralis, Chalawan, Intercrus, Megrez, Muscida, Sarir, Taiyangshou, Talitha, Tania, Alcor.

CoronaBorealis/Firmiana: Alphecca, Nusakan.

Camelopardalis/Camelus/SciurusVolans/flyingsquirrel: Tonatiuh.

Triangulum(Boreale/Majus)/Deltoton/Delta: Mothallah.

Cassiopeia: Schedar, Caph, Castula, Fulu, Marfark, Navi, Ruchbah, Segin, Achird.

Andromeda: GreatSpiral; Alpheratz, Mirach, Almach, Adhil, Alamak, Nembus, Titawin, Veritate.

Leo/Lion/Freya/Folkvangr/Sessrumnir: Regulus, Denebola, Algieba, Adhafera, AlMinliaralAsad, Alterf, Chertan, Praecipua, Rasalas, Subra, Zosma.

Cancer/crab/Heimdall: Acubens, Altarf, Asellus, Copernicus, Meleph, Tegmine.

CanisMinor: Procyon, Wezen, Gomeisa.

Gemini/twins/Castor&Pollux/Lugalirra&Meslamtae/Vali&Vidar/Breidablik: Alhena, Alzirr, Jishui, Mebsuta, Mekbuda, Propus, Tejat, Wasat.

Auriga/charioteer: Capella, Menkalinan, Almaaz, Haedus, Hassaleh, Mahasim, Saclateni.

Perseus: Algol; Mirfak; IRS5; Atik; Menkib; Miram; Misam.

Orion/hunter/Ishullanu/Sah/Osiris/Jabbir/Kesil: Trapezium; belt; Rigel; Betelgeuse, Bellatrix, Alnitak, Alnilam, Saiph, Hatsya, Meissa, Mintaka, Tabit, Thabit.

Taurus/bull/Gudana/Rohini/Skadi/Thrym: Pleiades/Kimah; Aldebaran; Elnath, Alcyone, Ain, Asterope, Atlas, Celaeno, Chamukuy, Electra, Maia, Merope, Pleione, Taygeta, Tianguan.
Taurus: Hyades/Ash/Ayish: Alphard.

Aries/ram/goldenfleece: Hamal, Bharani, Botein, LiliiBorea, Mesarthim, Sheratan.

Pegasus: Pegasi, Markab, Enif, Scheat, Markab, Algenib, Alkarab, Biham, Helvetios, Hornam, Matar, Sadalbari, Salm.

Pisces/fishes/Anunitu/Saga: Alrescha, FumalSamakah, Revati, Torcular.

MilkyWay/Galaxy: IRS5.
Sun/Sol/Helios/Shamash/Utu/Ra/Re.
Nemesis/darkstar
Venus/Lucifer/eveningstar/morningstar/Sukra/Mazzaroth/Hesperus.

Aquarius/watercarrier/Frey/Alfheim: Albali, Ancha, Sadachbia, Situla, Skat.

Capricorn(us)/goatfish/Frey/Alfheim/Pan/Amalthea: Algedi, Alshat, Dabih, DenebAlgedi, Nashira.

Sagittarius/archer/Pabilsag/Ull: Nunki, KausAustralis, Ainalrami, Albaldah, Alnasl, Arkab, Ascella, Polis, Rukbat, Terebellum.

Aquilo/Aquila/eagle: Altair, Alshain, Libertas, Tarazed.

Ophiuchus: Rasalhague, Sabik, Barnard'sStar, Cebalrai, Marfik, Yed.

Scorpio(n)/Scorpius/Njord: Antares, Shoula/Shaula, Acrab, Sargas, Larawag, Dschubba, Fang, Fuyue, Graffias, Iklil, Jabbah, Lesath, Pipirima, Xamidimura, Alniyat.

Serpens: SerpensCaput, SerpensCauda, Alya, Unukalhai.

Libra/balance/Njord: Zubenelgenubi, Brachium.

Virgo/virgin/Demeter/Sala/Forseti/Glitnir: Spica, Heze, Kang, Khambalia, Lich, Minelauva, Porrima, Syrma, Vindemiatrix, Zaniah, Zavijava.

Piscis(Austrinis)/PiscisNotus/SouthernFish: Fomalhaut.

Grus/crane/Phoenicopterus/flamingo: Alnair, Tiaki, Aldhanab.

TriangulumAustrale/TriangulusAntarcticus: Atria.

Pavo/peacock.

Corvus: Gienah.

Centaur(us)/Chiron: Agena; RigilKentaurus/AlphaCentauri, ProximaCentauri; Hadar; Menkent.

Hadretheman: Canopus.
Hadretheman: Crux/SouthernCross/TripleStar: Acrux, BetaCrucis/Mimosa, Gacrux, AlphaCentauri, Ginan.

Musca(Australis)/Apis/Bee

Cetus/whale: Mira, Diphda, BatenKaitos, Kaffaldjidhma, Menkar.

(Jason'sShip)Argo/ArgoNavis: Vela/sails: Alsephina, Suhail, Markeb, Regor.
ArgoNavis: Puppis/poopdeck: Naos, Tureis, Asmidiske.
ArgoNavis: Carina/keel: Canopus, Avior, Miaplacidus, Aspidiske.

WinterTriangle: Sirius, Betelguese, Procyon.

CanisMajor: SiriusA&B/dogstar/Sothis/Sopdet/Sept/Isis/Sukra/Tishtrya/east/dogdays, Adhara, Mirzam, Aludra, Furud, Muliphein, Unurgunite, Wezen.
CanisMajor: Sirius/scorching/triangle/Rehua/Warepil/red/seablue/white: thePup/SiriusB.

Manu: Sirius, Procyon, Canopus.

Phoenix/Phoenicis: Ankaa.

TheRiver/Eridanus: Achernar, Acamar, Beemim, Beid, Cursa, Keid, Ran, Sceptrum, Theemin, Zaurak, Zibal, Angetnar, Azha.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.



Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2018 at 09:17
There are only two New Testament accounts of Jesus' birth - the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke. The Census only occurs in the Gospel of Luke. The Magi and the Massacre of the Innocents only occur in the Gospel of Matthew. 

Whilst it is traditional to combine the two gospel accounts and read them as a single narrative, I think each gospel should be examined separately as an individual source, and judged on its own internal chronology. 

Luke starts with two reference points for dating Jesus' birth;

1. It is in the time of King Herod of Judea when Zechariah is an elderly priest, and his old and barren wife Elizabeth becomes pregnant with John the Baptist. Luke links Elizabeth's pregnancy to the news for Mary about her own child, but he does not say that Mary became pregnant at that point. 

2. It is in the time of Emperor Augustus that a census is decreed, when Quirinius is governor of Syria. It is this census that leads to Jesus being born in Bethlehem.

The census of Quirinius is recorded in the History of Josephus for 6/7 AD. If that is when Jesus was born, then the mentioned 'King Herod of Judea' could be Herod Archelaus [4 BC - 6 AD], who was replaced by Quirinius as ruler of Judea in 6 AD. There is nothing in the narrative of Luke that would argue against this. 

Luke also gives us some reference points in Jesus' adult life;

1. In the 15th year of Emperor Tiberius, John the Baptist starts to preach and baptize people in the Jordan area.

2. John the Baptist speaks against Herod of Galilee's behaviour, including his marriage to Herodias, and is arrested. 

3. Only after this arrest does Jesus, having already been baptized by John, leave John's disciples to spend 40 days in the wilderness before returning to Galilee and starting his own ministry. Jesus is about 30 years old when he starts to preach.

4. Jesus' ministry seems to be only about a year long (Luke mentions only one Passover). Herod has John beheaded during Jesus' ministry and Jesus is sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate.

Historically, the 15th year of Tiberius would be 29/30 AD, so this is the date for John the Baptist starting to preach. We are not told how long John preached prior to his arrest, nor for how long he was imprisoned, but Josephus reports that John's death was perceived as the cause for Herod's defeat by the Nabateans in 36 AD. 

We are also not told the time gap between John starting his ministry in 29/30 AD and Jesus starting his; but if Jesus' ministry was only a year long and included John's execution, then this would not have been very long before 36 AD, by which date (according to Josephus) John was recently dead.

So if Jesus' ministry ended about 36 AD, and if he was about 30 years old when he started preaching, then his birth fits with the census of Quirinius in 6/7 AD.

None of this proves that the story is true, nor helps explain why the chronology differs in Matthew. But it does show that the Luke narrative is consistent with itself, and with a second historical narrative in Josephus.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2018 at 11:43
So, what about the Star of Bethlehem?

The Star only makes an appearance in the Gospel of Matthew, linked to the visitation of the Magi to King Herod. Whilst Luke indicates that the 'Herod' Jesus was born under was Herod Archelaus, Matthew writes instead that this king Herod was the father of Archelaus. He is portrayed as a cruel and insecure tyrant who, hearing of a divinely destined replacement, massacres all possible rivals, but fails to kill Jesus who is divinely protected and goes to Egypt. There is indeed a story in Josephus of a court prophecy about Herod being overthrown by a coming Messiah, but whilst this was in c.6 BC it does not involve any stars, or the massacre of children.

Matthew seems to want a birth narrative for Jesus that compares to that of Moses, who escaped the massacre of the Pharaoh, and eventually came out of Egypt as the Lawgiver of God. Matthew's nativity narrative is much more full of miraculous intervention, divine warning, and fulfillment of prophecy when compared to Luke's. 

Interestingly, Matthew's nativity narrative ends with Jesus settling in Galilee in the time of Herod Archelaus, which is about the same time and place that Luke places Jesus. It is as if those seeking information about Jesus' birth could only trace him back to roughly this time and place as an infant, with some hint of a birth in Bethlehem. Luke then places the birth in an historical context of the Census, whilst Matthew places it in a folkloric context of evil kings, wandering (hidden) princes and divine protection. It is also interesting that Matthew, having told us that Herod wanted to destroy Jesus, then tells us that Jesus' family were also fearful of Herod's son, Archelaus. No reason is given for this, and I wonder whether there is some underlying remembrance here that it really was Herod Archelaus who endangered Jesus' life (and thus agreeing with Luke's timeframe - if not the details).

With regard to the Star, Matthew's folkloric tale has it that the Magi appear to Herod and he learns that a destined King of the Jews had been born at the time the Magi had seen his star arise. Herod learns that this had occurred two years ago, and is advised that it occurred in Bethlehem. Consequently, Herod orders the death in that vicinity of all male infants aged two years or under.

The curious thing is that according to the narrative the Star was still visible - for it led the Magi to the right house in Bethlehem. But it wasn't a constant vision, otherwise Herod's men would have spotted it. So some astronomical event occurred that was visible in the far East at the time that Jesus was born, but the Star only appeared fleetingly in the skies above Israel two years later.

Since Luke/Josephus indicate Jesus' birth as being in 6/7 AD, does this mean the Star appeared above Bethlehem in 8/9 AD? And does this have any relation to the rumours about Vespasian, who was born in 9 AD?




Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2018 at 23:36
Thanks Sidney, there are some interesting points.

There was a verse i didn't think of in the first post:
Acts 5:37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days
        of the enrollment, and drew away some people after him.
        He also perished, and all, as many as obeyed him,
        were scattered abroad.
But apparently this was the 6/7 ad census not b.c.

This is what i have been investigating the last couple of days:

It looks like the star of Bethlehem might be Halley's comet? (Though there might possibly actually be two different stars conflated?) However i am not sure because it doesn't seem to fit with some dates (Cyrinus 10-7 bc, 15th yr Tiberius, Jesus about 30 yrs old & 1 or 3-4 yrs ministry, destruction of Jerusalem 70)?

The star of Bethlehem is probably either a star or planet or comet, and is probably either a conjunction/synod or a comet. The Hebrew word kochba may perhaps better match a comet?
"A star shall come out of Jacob" is similar to "Venus came out of Jupiter" and might better match a comet? (Comet also looks like angel?)
The star of Bethlehem moving and staying may match a comet?
Compare Caesar's comet, and the Pendragon comet?
Jesus is called the morning/day star, and Halley's was a bright as Venus in 837 and Chinese compared its brilliance to the first-magnitude star Procyon (1301).
The star must have been significant and yet not noticed by Herod etc?

Halley's Comet might be connected with the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel.
468/466 bc is possibly the earliest recorded date of the comet, and this date is close to the start date of Daniel's prophecy and/or is only 10 yrs out from the orthodox 458 date of Ezra.
"70"/76 yrs period of the comet might link with 70 weeks?
It might explain how/why magi of the east knew about the king of the Jews? Halley's comet appears in records of Babylonians, Persians, Chinese.
I think it was Sitchin that suggested Halley's comet as sort of being Israel's star?

Halley's comet's period of "70"/76 years may link with the biblical number 7/77, and with 70/72 nations of Genesis 10, 70 days absence of Sirius, and 70 years lifetime of psalm of Moses and of David, and 70 weeks of Daniel, and 70 scholars of Septuagint, and 70 sanhedrin?
56/63 days of Halley's comet in 12/11 bc (Chinese records), and the comet's rotation of 52 hours also might link with biblical 50 years (jubilee), and Typhon/Set, and 50 yrs period of Sirius/Sothis.

The star of Bethlehem appeared over a period of upto 2 years (it may have either been present all the time, or appeared 2 or more times between the beginning and end of the 2 years). Halley's comet takes a year to pass either side of the earth when it passes around the sun (eg 1680 & 1681).

The comet and census look like they must be in either 12 bc, or 7/6 bc, or 3 bc (if not ruled out by Herod's death which is supposed to be 4 bc). (Though it is possible that the star was not at the time of Jesus' birth but 1-2 years later?) It is questionable whether there was a census in 7 bc since it is said that there are no actual records of one then (though there might have been one in 8 bc according to some source)? There was a census in 12 bc, and Halley's comet in 12/11 bc. Coincidentally Dio(n) Cassius recorded both the 12 bc census and the 218 Halley's comet. Dion Cassius is also similar to Dionysius Exiguus?

Apparently some others have also suggested that Halley's comet might be the star of Bethlehem, and an article seems to protest too much that it can't be. Halley's comet appeared in the painting The Adoration of the Magi by Giotto c 1301/1305. (Might also be interetsing that also "4 years prior"...?) Halley's name has also been spelt Hawley "similar to Holly" (and Hailey). (Coincidentally Halley's appeared in 25 dec 1758, though Jesus wasn't born that time of year.)

Halley's comet also appeared a few years before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 bc, about 40 years after orthodox date of Jesus' crucifiction.

Talmud saying that Halley's comet "leads astray captains of ships/boats" might connect with that Jesus disciples were fishermen (Peter, John & James)? Dio Cassius called it "a very fearful star". Halley's called Xiphias "sword", possibly compare "a sword shall pierce your soul" (Luke 2:35), "I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matt 10:34)?
Sirius' name means "hairy/scorching", Halley's was "hairy star" (1145).

Anna 84 yrs (cf easter cycle?) minus 7 yrs (Luke 2:36-37) = 76 yrs Halley's?



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2018 at 12:51
Halley's comet was in 9 BC (edit- 12 BC). For this to match Jesus' birth, then Jesus was born in 9 BC (edit- 12 BC) when the 'star' appeared, or in 11 BC (edit- 14 BC), being 2 years old when the Magi arrived and the 'star' led them to Bethlehem.

Josephus indicates that John the Baptist's ministry ended shortly before 36 AD, and Jesus only became active after John was arrested. This makes Jesus well over 40 when he started his ministry, whereas we are told that he was 'about thirty'.

If Jesus was born in 6/7 AD, at the time of the census and when there was a revolt by Judas of Galilee, then that would help explain why the appearance of the Magi, claiming a new king had been born at that tumultuous time, would gain greater credence with the already wary ruler. 


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2018 at 00:49
Yes there are seeming difficulties to resolve but i can't shake the evidence does seem to suggest Halleys and it is possible that the secular and biblical dates are not correctly calculated. Halleys comet was 12 bc and 66 ad. I'd be interested to know the 9 bc source.

We don't actually know all the correct check points start middle end dates of Jesus. 

The star could have appeared within two years before to two years after his birth.
Jesus was "about 30" in English translation, which could be anywhere between 25 to 39. 
He could have lived to 40 (something) since bible says "his generation" and says "you are not yet 50".

The 6/7 ad census is too late, and i am not convinced that Herod was Archelaus which contradicts Matthew. I have to check but i think bible says "the first census". There was not only one census.

It is possible that Daniel's middle of the week is middle of 12 bc to 66 bc.
69/70 weeks x 7 yrs in Daniel
switched around
6/7 x 70/76 Halley's comet returns between 468 bc & 12 bc/66 ad.

I will have to dig out my Josephus or read it online.

I accept that it is possible i could be wrong, though i am pretty sure it may be right. But i accept that we need to find if the dates problems do or don't have solution.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2018 at 10:03
Matthew is full of folklore, and I believe the idea of the star and the activities of a wicked king are elements inserted to make it "what we would expect to happen when the Messiah was born". There could be elements that bear a passing resemblance to actual events, but they may not be events that originally went together. 

Matthew's narrative;
The genealogy of Jesus, split into 3 groups of 14. This is a forced list to give a sense of a preordained generation. Mary gets pregnant through the Holy Spirit, and Joseph has a dream message. This fulfills a prophecy. Jesus is born and King Herod is visited by Magi, who seek the King of the Jews due to an astronomical/astrological event. "All Jerusalem is disturbed" and "all the people's" priests and teachers are gathered together.This is an exaggeration. These teachers and priests (who are ignorant about the astronomical event) say the King is in Bethlehem. This fulfills a prophecy. The Magi find the King (Jesus) by following the star (which Herod still cannot see), but are warned by a dream message not to tell Herod. Joseph has a dream message to go to Egypt. This fulfills a prophecy. Herod is angry he cannot find the King and orders a massacre of boys. This fulfills a prophecy. Herod dies and Joseph has a dream message to return to Israel. Joseph has an undisclosed reason to fear the king of Judea, and has a dream message and settles in Nazareth. This fulfills a prophecy.

Matthew presents us with a preordained time-frame, an astronomical wonder that carries an astrological prediction, five dreams with direct messages, and five Scriptural prophecies that are fulfilled. The astrology and dreams imply that Matthew is working outside of traditional Hebrew culture - the Magi are Babylonian, and Matthew's dreams are clear and direct communications from God, unlike those of the Old Testament that come as signs that need interpreting (cf. Joseph's dreams, Pharaoh's dreams, Nebuchadnezzer's dream, Daniel's dream, etc). Every message is supernatural, and there are no human agents in this story who act outside these messages.

Looking to place Matthew's Star of Bethlehem, King Herod, and Jesus together in a coherent historical moment is going to be impossible. Matthew was not interested in the true history of Jesus' birth, only in presenting it as a divinely ordained event. Clearly there were comets, and there were also King Herods, but Matthew put them together in the way he does in order to create an appropriate story after the event.


Posted By: CedricEmrys
Date Posted: 22-Feb-2018 at 11:53
Originally posted by .Sidney

Matthew is full of folklore, and I believe the idea of the star and the activities of a wicked king are elements inserted to make it "what we would expect to happen when the Messiah was born". There could be elements that bear a passing resemblance to actual events, but they may not be events that originally went together. 

Matthew's narrative;
The genealogy of Jesus, split into 3 groups of 14. This is a forced list to give a sense of a preordained generation. Mary gets pregnant through the Holy Spirit, and Joseph has a dream message. This fulfills a prophecy. Jesus is born and King Herod is visited by Magi, who seek the King of the Jews due to an astronomical/astrological event. "All Jerusalem is disturbed" and "all the people's" priests and teachers are gathered together.This is an exaggeration. These teachers and priests (who are ignorant about the astronomical event) say the King is in Bethlehem. This fulfills a prophecy. The Magi find the King (Jesus) by following the star (which Herod still cannot see), but are warned by a dream message not to tell Herod. Joseph has a dream message to go to Egypt. This fulfills a prophecy. Herod is angry he cannot find the King and orders a massacre of boys. This fulfills a prophecy. Herod dies and Joseph has a dream message to return to Israel. Joseph has an undisclosed reason to fear the king of Judea, and has a dream message and settles in Nazareth. This fulfills a prophecy.

Matthew presents us with a preordained time-frame, an astronomical wonder that carries an astrological prediction, five dreams with direct messages, and five Scriptural prophecies that are fulfilled. The astrology and dreams imply that Matthew is working outside of traditional Hebrew culture - the Magi are Babylonian, and Matthew's dreams are clear and direct communications from God, unlike those of the Old Testament that come as signs that need interpreting (cf. Joseph's dreams, Pharaoh's dreams, Nebuchadnezzer's dream, Daniel's dream, etc). Every message is supernatural, and there are no human agents in this story who act outside these messages.

Looking to place Matthew's Star of Bethlehem, King Herod, and Jesus together in a coherent historical moment is going to be impossible. Matthew was not interested in the true history of Jesus' birth, only in presenting it as a divinely ordained event. Clearly there were comets, and there were also King Herods, but Matthew put them together in the way he does in order to create an appropriate story after the event.

Some think that god used what happened in nature, i.e the planet jupiter which was the king of the planets, crossed paths with neptune, which in astrology, was the protector of palestine, so this was a double symbolism, the king(jupiter) met with the protector of palestine(neptune), Jesus was the messiah who is the protector and king of Israel. 
I think this is a cool theory, many astrologers and astronomers think that this is the most likely explanation.  
God can use even things that have nothing to do with him to work out his plan.


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Buaidh no bàs


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2018 at 16:03

For years/decades/century people have been claiming sources like Bible, Atlantis Account, Nennius, Herodotus, Robin Hood, etc are just "myth", "folklore", "unreliable". Yet in the last 4 or so years we have proven each of them are far more historically true than hitherto claimed. 
Humans have had dreams for millenia (Joseph, Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel, Herod, Joseph, ML King, Freud/Jung). 
There are prophecies that have been fulfilled/true in ancient times and modern times. 
Halley's comet is in Bayeux tapestry, does that mean its myth? Tiberius was into astrology does that mean he is myth? 
Luke (Greek) and a doctor and associate of Paul. Matthew (Hebrew) is supposedly Levi a tax collector, can't get more realist than that.

I'd be interested to know more about the jupiter/king & neptune/palestine conjunction re what date etc, though i currently tentatively favoiur the Halley's comet as the star for the reasons given.

Have gone through Josephus to see if any help/clues there. The registration/census of Luke 2:1-5 might possibly be connected with Josephus Antiquities (16:5:1 and) 16:6:1-8 (and 16:7:1-2)?

Luke: decree of Augustus Caesar.
Josephus: decree of Augustus Caesar.

Luke: registration/census.
Josephus: decree to do with sacred money; Censorinus.

Luke: Cyrenius/Cyrinus/Quirinius (the original of the Greek text seems to be Cyrenius/Cyrnius not Quirinius?).
Josephus: Cyrene; Caius Censorinus. [Cyrinus was also in 10-7 bc.]
(If the original is Quirinius not Cyrenius then alternative possibility is Quintilius in 17:5:2.)

Luke: "for all the inhabited earth"
Josephus: "toward all mankind".

Luke: Bethlehem (city of David).
Josephus: Herod taking wealth out of David's sepulchre.

Luke/Matthew: Mary/Miriam (& Joseph). babies of Ramah.
Josephus: Mariamne (& Joseph). sons of Mariamne.

The 28th year of Herod's reign would be between 19 to 12 to 9 bc.

Alternatively there is a slaughter of Jews in Josephus 17:6:5-6 similar that in Matthew.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2018 at 12:47
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

For years/decades/century people have been claiming sources like Bible, Atlantis Account, Nennius, Herodotus, Robin Hood, etc are just "myth", "folklore", "unreliable". Yet in the last 4 or so years we have proven each of them are far more historically true than hitherto claimed. 
Humans have had dreams for millenia (Joseph, Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel, Herod, Joseph, ML King, Freud/Jung). 
There are prophecies that have been fulfilled/true in ancient times and modern times. 
Halley's comet is in Bayeux tapestry, does that mean its myth? Tiberius was into astrology does that mean he is myth? 
Luke (Greek) and a doctor and associate of Paul. Matthew (Hebrew) is supposedly Levi a tax collector, can't get more realist than that.

Please note what I said;

Originally posted by .Sidney

Matthew is full of folklore, and I believe the idea of the star and the activities of a wicked king are elements inserted to make it "what we would expect to happen when the Messiah was born". There could be elements that bear a passing resemblance to actual events, but they may not be events that originally went together.

...Clearly there were comets, and there were also King Herods, but Matthew put them together in the way he does in order to create an appropriate story after the event.

Halley's comet in the Bayeux tapestry was not used to confirm the date of the Battle of Hastings. Rather, we identify the image as Halley's comet because we already had the date of the Battle of Hastings, and we have contemporary descriptions linking its appearance to that known date.. 

And belief in astrology clearly does not mean that believers themselves are a myth.  




Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2018 at 15:44
i will find the truth (if i haven't already) as i always do regardless of others always trying to claim things are not true but myth/mixed/unreliable.

Apparently according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_Gestae_Divi_Augusti - Res Gestae Divi Augusti , there was a 2nd census of Augustus in 8/7bc 20 yrs after 1st one, and 3rd census in ad 13/14 again 20 yrs after 2nd one. But there is no star except the 7 bc conjunction.
It is also said that there was a census in time of Saturninus according to Tertullian.
I still favour the 12 bc Halleys & census evidences, but am objectively seeking truth regardless.

Jesus must have been born &/or 2yrs old between 12-3 bc.
He must have been baptised between 14/18-29/36/37 ad.
Must have died between 26-37
But i haven't been able to narrow it down further than that yet. Something is wrong with some secular or seeming-biblical dates somewhere.


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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2018 at 14:38
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

i will find the truth (if i haven't already) as i always do regardless of others always trying to claim things are not true but myth/mixed/unreliable.

Apparently according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_Gestae_Divi_Augusti - Res Gestae Divi Augusti , there was a 2nd census of Augustus in 8/7bc 20 yrs after 1st one, and 3rd census in ad 13/14 again 20 yrs after 2nd one. 

Thanks for the reference Arthur-Robin. Its a very relevant piece of evidence.

The passage reads;

"In my sixth consulship, with Marcus Agrippa as my colleague, I made a census of the people. I performed the lustrum after an interval of forty-one years. In this lustration 4,063,000 Roman citizens were entered on the census roll. 

A second time, in the consulship of Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius, I again performed the lustrum alone, with the consular imperium. In this lustrum 4,233,000 Roman citizens were entered on the census roll. 

A third time, with the consular imperium,  and with my son Tiberius Caesar as my colleague, I performed the lustrum in the consulship of Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Apuleius. In this lustrum 4,937,000 Roman citizens were entered on the census roll."

The 'lustrum' was the sacrifice made at the end of a census. Augustus performed his first census in 28 BC, 41 years after the previous one under in 69 BC. Augustus made his second in 8 BC. The third in 14 AD.

The censuses seemed to have only concerned Roman citizens. Is that true? And if so, do we need to argue that Jesus' family were Roman citizens in order to have been affected by it?

But there were other censuses besides these - notably the one in 6 AD in Judea under Quirinus, which is the only census mentioned by Luke's Gospel in reference to Jesus' nativity, and later in Acts with reference to Messiah-like figures.  

The census of Jesus' nativity is only mentioned by Luke, and is not connected to Matthew's Star of Bethlehem. Luke and Matthew are separate accounts of the nativity that were not written to compliment each other, nor were they written with the intention of being amalgamated. Each investigated Jesus' origins separately, and only agree that he was the son of Joseph and Mary, was born through the Holy Spirirt, was living in Nazareth around the time of Herod Archelaus, but was said to have been born in Bethlehem. The details beyond that have to be judged on possible provenance, historical context and any agenda driven desire of the author(s).


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2018 at 15:53
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

  It is also said that there was a census in time of Saturninus according to Tertullian.

Another good reference, Arthur-Robin.

Tertullian, in "Against Marcion" (written 208/07 AD mentions censuses twice. Firstly in Book IV, Ch 7, in reference to Jesus first teaching in the synagogue;

And yet how could He have been admitted into the synagogue----one so abruptly appearing, so unknown; one, of whom no one had as yet been apprised of His tribe, His nation, His family, and lastly His enrolment in the census of Augustus----that most faithful witness of the Lord's nativity, kept in the archives of Rome?

And secondly in Book IV, Ch 19, in reference to Jesus being told that his mother and brothers are waiting outside for him;

"But there is historical proof that at this very time a census had been taken in Judaea by Sentius Saturninus, which might have satisfied their inquiry respecting the family and descent of Christ."

Are these two references to a single census? We know that there were a number of censuses conducted under Augustus, but how many under Sentius Saturninus? 

Sentius Saturninus was governor of Syria (which seems to be what Tertullian means by Judea) in 9-6 BC, which is usually taken to be the one that Tertullian is referencing, since it fits with the assumed identity of King Herod (died 4 BC)  in the Gospel of Matthew, and fits in with the 9 BC general census of Augustus.

However, another Sentius Saturninus was Governor of Syria in 19-21 AD. Since Tertullian is talking about an event that happened after 30 AD, and then says "at this very time a census had been taken" is he likely to be referring to a census from 40 years before, or something a bit closer in time, say at 10 years? The language favours the latter, so maybe there was a census under this second Sentius Saturninus, which is a different one to the earlier one he mentions under Augustus.  

But with his statement, Tertullian seems to be contradicting the Gospel of Luke, which clearly says that the census was under Quirinius the governor of Syria. As a faithfull Christian, is it likely that Tertullian was unaware of what the Gospel said, or had decided that he knew better? The answer could be that the immediate predecessor of Quirinius as governor of Syria was a third Saturninus in 4-6 AD, and that he and Quirinius shared the set up of the census.

It should also be noted that until the deposement of Herod Archelaus in 6 AD, Judea was not under direct Roman management. Therefore a governor of Syria (as Saturninus in 9-6 BC was) would not have been authorised to take a census in Judea. It was only after 6 AD that such an administrative task could be conducted.

Josephus tells us in Book XVII, Ch 13 of his Antiquities;

"So Archelaus' country [Judea] was added to the province of Syria [6 AD]; and Cyrenius [Quirinius] who had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of the people's effects in Syria" [which only now included Judea].




Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2018 at 00:14

(Tertullian was only a comment i don't appreciate false implying that i thought anything you implied i did.)

Jesus seemingly can only have been born between 12 bc and 3 bc. I do not agree with separating Matthew and Luke unless they are referring to separate times events. Luke's census verse is agreed by scholars to be uncertain/ambiguous as to its correct meaning. His census may either be at time of Jesus birth (12 bc - 3 bc) or may have not been at time of Jesus birth but be the 6/7 ad one.

censuses:
69 bc (Res Gestae Augustus),
julius caesar decreed Jews of Jerusalem pay annual tribute,
28 bc (41 years after previous, 20 years before next, Res Gestae Augustus),
12 bc (Dio Cassius),
9/8 bc "of Roman empire/citizens" (20 yearly, Censorinus, Res Gestae Augustus, Josephus 16:6:1-8, Tertullian?),
7/6bc (14 yrs before, Tertullian?)?
3 bc (mass oath),
6/7 ad (14 yearly, Quirinus, Josephus, Luke? Tertullian?),
13/14 ad (20 yearly, Res Gestae Augustus),
20 ad (14 yearly, Tertullian?),
34 ad (14 yearly),
312 ad (14 yrly, indiction).

Herod also took revenue from Jews in Josephus.

There is also question of correct word used in Luke (these words in different sources: money, revenue, tax, tribute, census registration, assessment, decree, indiction, lustrum).

Notice that Censorinus is common to both the Gestae Augustus and to the Josephus section that i said seemed similar to Luke's verses. (I do not appreciate how people always ignoring important things i said and only focusing on one or few weakest/minorest things.)
Source say Augustus one was "of Roman empire"; and Josephus verses specifically decree to Jews.

Something is wrong with the dates of different sources between the 14/15 yr censuses and the 20 yr censuses.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 17:43
If you want to find comets that match an amalgamated reading of Matthew and Luke, then at the Battle of Teutoberg Forest in 9 AD, when the Germanic tribes defeated the Roman Legions under Varus, the historian Dio Cassius records "numerous comets appeared at one and the same time" (Dio Cassius 56.24.4). 

Since, if we follow Matthew, Jesus was aged 2 years when the Star appeared, then a comet appearing in 9 AD puts Jesus' birth in 7 AD, which fits with the Josephus/Luke census date. 




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 17:58
Generations of commentators on the Gospels have tried to reconcile Luke's census with Matthew's time of King Herod, and unanimously assume that Luke was wrong in some way and that Matthew was accurate. 

A much more straightforward answer is that Matthew was wrong. He admits that Joseph was afraid of Herod Archelaus, but gives no reason for it. Yet he has just told us how a King Herod was attempting to kill Jesus. Matthew made one King Herod into two. If we make them the same King (Herod Archelaus) this reconciles the account in Matthew with the details in Luke that are corroborated in Josephus. 

Josephus tells us that Archelaus was disposed because the Jews were outraged by his atrocities and cruelty.  He certainly sounds like the type of man who would gain the reputation of a baby killer.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 18:07
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin


Jesus seemingly can only have been born between 12 bc and 3 bc. 

Why?

As I have noted, the province of Judea did not come under direct Roman control until 6 AD. Therefore the census mentioned in Luke, whether it was an Empire wide one or one for local Roman administration, would not have included Judea until after that date. Judea just wasn't part of the Empire. 

Therefore if we want to believe the Gospels regarding Jesus' birth, then Luke says 6 AD or after. 


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 20:29
Originally posted by .Sidney

Generations of commentators on the Gospels have tried to reconcile Luke's census with Matthew's time of King Herod, and unanimously assume that Luke was wrong in some way and Matthew was accurate.


In many topics i have studied i was told that "many people better/greater/smarter than you have failed to solve such and such for thousands of years so why would you?" And yet in a number of the topics i actually managed to find the truth (King Arthur's battle sites, Robin Hood, Atlantis location, Joseph and Moses in Egypt, etc) (and in quite a few of them i actually found that some other person(s) had already more or less correctly found them themselves).

Originally posted by .Sidney


A much more straightforward answer is that Matthew was wrong. He admits that Joseph was afraid of Herod Archelaus, but gives no reason for it. Yet he has just told us how a King Herod was attempting to kill Jesus. Matthew made one King Herod into two. If we make them the same King (Herod Archelaus) this reconciles the account in Matthew with the details in Luke that are corroborated in Josephus. 


When ancient sources and modern sources seem to not be able to be reconciled the moderns always assert that the modern experts must be right and the ancient must be wrong. They always seem to start with assuming/asserting that sources are unreliable. I always just continue to thoroughly and objectively look for if there is any real quality match of the text with history, i don't give up just because of seeming difficulties unless there is found proof that the source is not historically true.

Maybe the historical evidences or explanations have already been found: there are some interesting pieces of information and ideas in these pages articles:
https://www.mysteriesofthemessiah.net/2016/01/04-03-09-bethlehem-c-6-5-b-c-the-registration-or-census/
http://www.askelm.com/star/star014.htm
http://www.thebuttschurch.org.uk/features/articles.php?id=star
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/firstcensus.htm
http://followers-of-yahwshua-ha-mashiach.weebly.com/concerning-yahwshuas-birth-and-death-dates.html
http://adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/CometsAndEclipsesCorrelatedWithHistoricalRecords.htm

Matthew clearly says Herod the king [of the Jews] died before Archelaus.
Josephus does say Herod had madness and did some killings similar to that in Matthew.


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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 21:16
Originally posted by .Sidney

Originally posted by Arthur-Robin


Jesus seemingly can only have been born between 12 bc and 3 bc. 

Why?


Jesus was born in reign of Augustus 44/43/31/27/19 bc - ad 14.
Jesus was born in reign of Herod the Great 47/44/40/38/37 - 4/1 bc.
Jesus was born in or before Quirinius 14 (Cyrene), 12 (consul), 12-1/5-3, 10-7 bc, 4-1 bc, 6/7-11/12 ad.

These give us 14-4/1 bc (though depends on Luke's Quirinius verse which is uncertain as to correct meaning).

There was a "census/registration/enrollment/decree" at his birth:
"censuses"/decrees: 86 bc? 69 bc (41 years before 1st one of Augustus), julius caesar annual tribute decree, 28 bc (Augustus), "census of Herod 12 bc", 12/11 bc (Dio Cassius?); 9/8/7 bc (Augustus, Josephus 16:6:1-8); may or may not have been 14 yearly one in 7/6 bc (not recorded)? 3 bc (mass oath), 6/7 ad (Quirinius), 13/14 ad (Augustus), 20 ad (14 yearly), 33/34 ad (14 yearly), 312 ad (indiction).

There was a star either at his birth or 1-2 yrs before or after his birth:
stars: 44/24 (Caesar's), 42 bc (temple of comet star), 17 bc comet? 12/11/9 (Halley's), 9, 7/6 bc, 6, 5 bc object/tailed-comet/nova, 4 bc comet with no tail, 3 bc, 3-2, 2, 1 bc, none in 0, comets 9 ad (Dio Cassius), ban on astrology in ad 11, Tiberius interested in astrology and nativities between 14-37 ad, 66 ad (Halley's).

And he was "about 30" [25-35] in 15th year of Tiberius (ad 12/13/14/15-37).

So we have 12 bc to 3 bc in my tentative opinion.

Period of census in different sources: 21/20 yrs, 14 yrs, 11 yrs, 7 yrs, or 5 yrs.


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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2018 at 06:02
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

 Jesus was born in reign of Augustus 44/43/31/27/19 bc - ad 14.Jesus was born in reign of Herod the Great 47/44/40/38/37 - 4/1 bc.
Jesus was born in or before Quirinius 14 (Cyrene), 12 (consul), 12-1/5-3, 10-7 bc, 4-1 bc, 6/7-11/12 ad.

These give us 14-4/1 bc (though depends on Luke's Quirinius verse which is uncertain as to correct meaning).[edited emphasis]
You are doing the exact thing I commented upon;
Originally posted by .Sidney

Generations of commentators on the Gospels have tried to reconcile Luke's census with Matthew's time of King Herod, and unanimously assume that Luke was wrong in some way and that Matthew was accurate. 

You have accepted the assumption that everyone else does - that Luke must be wrong in some way. The only reason to believe that Luke is wrong is the belief that Matthew must be right. 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2018 at 06:06



Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2018 at 08:17
Originally posted by .Sidney

Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

 Jesus was born in reign of Augustus 44/43/31/27/19 bc - ad 14.Jesus was born in reign of Herod the Great 47/44/40/38/37 - 4/1 bc.
Jesus was born in or before Quirinius 14 (Cyrene), 12 (consul), 12-1/5-3, 10-7 bc, 4-1 bc, 6/7-11/12 ad.

These give us 14-4/1 bc (though depends on Luke's Quirinius verse which is uncertain as to correct meaning).[edited emphasis]
You are doing the exact thing I commented upon;
Originally posted by .Sidney

Generations of commentators on the Gospels have tried to reconcile Luke's census with Matthew's time of King Herod, and unanimously assume that Luke was wrong in some way and that Matthew was accurate. 


No i am not doing any exact thing you commented on. I do not assume Luke or Matthew is wrong. You were the one that is assuming Matthew (and/or Luke) is wrong not me. The only thing i said is that i am not certain of the correct meaning of the verse. I.e. i was saying i might be wrong re date tie to Quirinius because Luke might mean the census was before the later one of Quirinius.

Originally posted by .Sidney


You have accepted the assumption that everyone else does - that Luke must be wrong in some way. The only reason to believe that Luke is wrong is the belief that Matthew must be right. 


No i have not do not twist my implied meanings. The translation/interpretation/understanding may be wrong not Luke. The verse is uncertain as to correct meaning, that is not the same as saying the verse is wrong.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2018 at 07:17
Yes. I do think Matthew is in error. Or, as you say about Luke, the interpretation/translation of the verses might not be what he originally intended. Either way, it amounts to saying the same thing. What we think we read today is not what we need to accept.

One clear example of this is when you wrote;
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

And he was "about 30" [25-35] in 15th year of Tiberius (ad 12/13/14/15-37).

This information is given in Luke. But the way this statement is interpreted (above) is due to assumptions given by previous commentators. Actually reading the verse, it is clear that the '15th year of Tiberius' is separate to when Jesus was 'about 30'. 

The 15th year of Tiberius is actually when John the Baptist started his preaching. Not when Jesus started his:

Luke 3:1-3 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness. He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

We are not told how long John the Baptist carried on his ministry, but it is only after Jesus gets baptised by him that Luke tells us;

Luke 3:21&23 After all the people had been baptized, Jesus also was baptized. When Jesus began his work, he was about thirty years old.

It is thus a misreading of the passage to say that Jesus was about 30 in the 15th year of Tiberius. It is John who began his ministry in that time, and only after an unspecified gap (but certainly after John had been baptising for some time), did Jesus then start out on his, when he was aged about 30.

Basically, whenever the 15th year of Tiberius was, it was only after that date that Jesus was about 30.




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2018 at 07:54
I have mentioned that Josephus tells us that John the Baptist died not long before 36 AD. He also indicates that Herodias divorced her husband in about 33 AD, which divorce (according to the Gospels) was what John protested about and caused him to get arrested. So John was arrested and executed sometime between 33-36 AD. Jesus' ministry started after John's arrest, and he died after John was executed. So if we say Jesus was around in 34/35 AD then he would have been around 30, considering he was born in the Quirinius census of 6/7 AD. 

Luke fits together with no need to think anything is 'uncertain' in his Gospel.

On the other hand, Matthew has a star appearing in the sky, the appearance of exotic strangers bearing fabulous wealth, the massacre of baby boys around Bethlehem, a secret King of the Jews fleeing to Egypt, and a family settling in Nazareth due to a seemingly irrational fear of Herod Archelaus. And all this only happening because of the direct and sole influence of prophecies and dreams. Yet this is meant to be less 'uncertain' than Luke? The fact that every commentator uses Luke in order to try and make any sense out of Matthew just shows how uncertain Matthew is!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2018 at 17:02
I fear I'm hijacking your thread, Arthur-Robin, away from the Star of Bethlehem and into a different aspect of when Jesus was born. I don't want to stop you in your own intellectual pursuits, 

I wonder if the Gnostic Gospels have anything to say regarding the Star and the time it appeared?


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2018 at 21:23

I am aware that the 15th year and about 30 yrs old may have a gap of unknown length.

It says (in English version at least) "Jesus was also baptised" "when all the people were baptised" "in the course of those days", so i need to see the original Greek to know whether it is "after" or "when".

We don't know if/what size gap there is between John start his work and Jesus start his work. Jesus was only 6 months younger than John. (It is even posisble that Jesus started his work at about 30 before baptised?) There is only one chapter between in all 4 gospels. Mark and John gospel of Jesus both begin with John Baptist. (Have to check out Mandean texts to see if any clues there.) Elijah was 3 and 1/2 years before Elisha.
John says "the next day" (though i wonder if the "days" there could be years, though unlikely since it mentions "not many days" and "passover" in chapter 3).
John forerunner "before your face" could be small or big gap.

John saying "My hour is not yet come" and Jesus "spent some time" in Judean country might perhaps imply some gap.

There was attempted dispute re Jesus baptising and John baptising, so have to consider overlap of the two.
Though some of the gospels do say Jesus was "after John put in prison".

I am hampered by lack of water, health, time, freedom, resources. I couldn't even find a Greek New Testament in Roman Alphabet in search. The elite purposely make everything difficult while they falsely make it look like it is us who are dumb/wrong/bad.

The Josephus "36 ad" reference is disputed by some scholars.

You can claim i was misreading (might posisbly be true but it is only minor because i was/am not closed/limited/restricted by it but  am always aware/open/objective), but you also could be misasserting a "some time" gap because we don't know if or what length gap there is or is not unless you provide more concrete evidence/proof for the length of it (not just vague like "after all were baptised").

Jesus can not have been born in 6/7 ad census of Quirinius because he was born in Herod Great before Archealus, and other reasons, and no star? Luke says prote "before" or "first". I also wonder about the word apographe "registration".

I take note of your point that John may be between 33 to 36 ad in Josephus. Though this might only be when he was put in prison after Jesus was about 30. Dead Sea Scrolls mention 35 yrs in Vison of Daniel.

Jesus was probably born between 12 to 3 bc for reasons i gave.

My 3 dates for star and/or census are either 12/11 bc (Halley's) or 8/7 bc (Augustus census & conjuntions) or 3 bc (mass oath).

The only hi-jacking is the few things i complained about that don't seem fair/true/genuine, otherwise your points do relate to the star and birth date because we need to confirm the right star/date with the check-point dates of Jesus life all fitting.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2018 at 09:56
There is a 10/11 yrs range in Jesus dates that I haven't yet been able to reduce any further.

From the new timeline below my tentative range for Jesus birth is
12-3 bc with 4 possible dates of either 12/11/10/9 or 10/9/8/7 or 7/6/5 or 5/4/3/2.

And for Jesus crucifixion:
26-37 ad with possible dates of either 26 or 27 or 29 or 30 or 31/32/33 or 36/37.

I still favour the Halley's comet of 12/11/9 bc for star of Bethlehem, but i may be wrong because i can't necessarily definitely resolve some seeming difficulties fitting with the later 20s-30s dates. It is possible that some secular dates are actually not correct dates, for example Pilate same 26 ad date in 1 ad based ASC as in modern 4 bc based dates. 12 bc has star and census and Quirinius and Dio Cassius.

New timeline:

c 87 bc  800 rebels crucified
(58/55 bc Nephite Hagoth)
54 Crassus loots temple confiscating all its gold
Herod the Great k of the jews 47/44/40/38/37-4/1 bc.
Augustus 44/43/31/27/19 bc - ad 14 (14 yrs with Antony, Josephus, ASC)
40 Pacorus of Parthia
Census Egypt 30 bc.
census 28 bc (Augustus, Suetonius)
Census: Gaul 27 bc
25-13 Caesarea built
high priest (Simon son of) Boethus, father of wife of Herod 23-5
20 bc Sanhedrin head Hillel the Elder?
temple built 15th/17th/18th yr Herod ca 21/20/19/early 17 bc
temple quarry date 19 bc
Saturninus consul 19 bc
17 bc comet?
15 bc Agrippa visits Jerusalem, offers hecatomb in temple
Quirinius Cyrene 14 bc
Quin(c)tilius 13 consul
Tiberius 13 bc
Census Gaul 12 bc
"census of Herod 12 bc"
Quirinius consul 12 bc
census 12 bc 12/11 bc (Agrippa died, Dio Cassius?)
12/11/9 bc (Halley's before the death of Agrippa, Dio Cassius RH 54:29)
Quirinius 12/11-2 bc (proconsul Syria, micrographic lettering coins)?
Quirinius 12-1/5-3?
Saturninus consul 11 bc
Claudius born 10 bc
Quirinius 10-7 bc
Census Egypt 9 bc.
eclipse 9 bc
9 bc Uranus & Saturn;
census 9/8/7 bc (Censorinus, Augustus, Ancyra, Suetonius, Josephus)
Saturninus 9-7/6 bc (Tertullian)
Censorinus 8 bc (Josephus)
Quin(c)tilius 7/6-4/3 Syria
Tiberius 7 bc
7/6 bc (Jupiter & Saturn, Sippar, Kepler, Schnabel);
may or may not have been 14 yearly census in 7/6 bc (not recorded)?
Census Cyrene 7 bc
6 bc Uranus & Venus
occultation 6 bc
c 6 bc court prophecy Herod overthrown by a coming messiah *
Quintilius Varus 6-3?
5 bc object/tailed-comet/nova 70 days
high priest Matthias son of Theophilus 5-4 [Matthan? Matthat?]
4 bc comet with no tail
ca 4 bc comet & conjunction several planets in Pisces (DSS)? *
Saturninus consul 4 bc
eclipse 4 bc,
Simon of Peraea 4 bc
Quirinius 4-1 bc
Archelaus 4 bc - ad 6
Philip 4 bc - ad 34
Herod Antipas 4 bc-17-27/31/35-defeat 36 - deposed 39
Joazar bro of wife of Matthias son of Boethus 4 bc / 6 ad
(Joseph son of Ellem(us) 1 day in 4 bc) [Joseph son of Heli?]
Eleazar/Joazar son of Boethus 4-3 bc & ? - 6 ad
Jesus son of Sic/Sie 3 bc - ?
Caesarea Philipi 3 bc - ad 14 - 29/30 - 34 ad
3 bc mass oath [census] (josephus 17:41-45, pater patriae 2 bc)
(3 bc conjunction of Venus & Saturn (in eastern sky) in 12 Jun?)
(3 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus in Leo in 12th Aug?) *
3 bc conjunction Venus & Mercury 31 Aug?
3-2 bc conjunction(s) of Jupiter & Regulus
"Saturninus 3/2 bc"?
2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus near Regulus in Leo in [West at] sunset in 17 Jun?
2 bc Venus rose to mark sceptre in Leo 18/20/24 Aug? *
2 bc Jupiter stationary 25 Dec
1 bc Jupiter & Venus in Virgo in sw [July]?
eclipse 1 bc
no star in 0 bc/ad
1 ad Venus rose in Aries 27 Mar?
"Jesus born 42nd Augustus 1 ad"  (ASC, Exiguus)
Herod died 3 ad (ASC)
Tiberius heir ad 4
Saturninus 4-6 ad (Tertullian)
high priest Joazar bro of wife of Matthias son of Boethus 6 ad
high priest Eleazar/Joazar son of Boethus ? - 6 ad
census Quirinus 6/7 ad Judas/Zadok/Joazar
Quirinius 6/7-11/12 ad
Annas 6-15
7-26 period of peace relatively free of revolt
Quin(c)tilius 8 ad consul
comets 9 ad (Dio Cassius)
9 ad Vespasian born
9/10 Hillel dies; temp rise of Shammai
eclipse 10 ad
Herod 11 ad (ASC)
Longinus 11
ad 11 ban Astrology
Philip 12 ad (ASC)
12-30 Jose of Arimathea brough Jesus to Britain
Tiberius ad 12/13/14/15/16-27/28/29/30-37 (ASC)
c 13 ad Pandion/Bargoses to Augustus (Dio Cassius)
3rd census Augustus & Tiberius ad 13/14 (Augustus, Suetonius)
Tiberius interested in astrology and nativities between 14-37 ad
Lysanias 14-29/42 ad?
Caesarea Philipi ad 14-29 / 30-34 ad
"Great Pan is dead" 14/15-37
17 earthquake Anatolia
ad 17 cross, Gwenwisa (24 kings & 33 cities document)
Tiberius 18 ad
Caiaphas 18-36
19 Jewish astrologers expelled from Rome
Saturninus 19-21 ad (Tertullian)
20 census
Tiberius 21 ad
23 ad Chinese astronomer;
eclipse 26 ad
Pilate/Pilatus 26-36/37 (ASC)
mid-week 27 ad (Halley's, Daniel, me)?
John Baptist 27/31/33/35-28/30/31/32/35-36 (Josephus, wiki, Sidney)
eclipse 29 ad
JC baptised 30 (ASC)
Longinus 30
Robin Redbreast 30s ad.
till 30 Shammai
30 martyr Stephen
30 Helena of Adiabene converts to Judaism
30-70 schism within Judaism
31 Sejanus
Tiberius 31 ad
31 ad Mar 4/5 "ladder formed by all wandering  stars";
31 ad Aug 15 "Venus rose in sextans (included as part of Leo)";
32 Philo
32 ad darkness/eclipse (Thallus/Africanus); 
33 ad fri 3rd Apr "eclipse/blood-moon" (Crucifiction)?
33 ad (19 Mar-)5 Apr "Venus (& sun) rose in Pisces" (JC resurrection).
crucifiction 33 (ASC)
33 financial crisis hits Rome
33/34 census
"33-37/35 British evangelised"
36 calendar monument Mexico
36 ad Egyptian astronomer
37 earthquake Antioch
37-40/41 financial crisis
Maximus 39
comet 39 ad
40 BVM appeared to James on bank of Ebro at Caesaraugusta in Spain
before 44 James written; 44 James beheaded
44 death of Herod Agrippa 1
Herod 44 ad (ASC)
44-46 Theudas
James 45/62 (ASC)
famine 46
47 Thomas
49 Jews expelled from Rome
50 passover riot in Jerusalem
c 50 council Jerusalem
51-52/52-53 Gallio
52 Thomas in India
Benjamin/Egyptian prophet 52-58 / 55 ad?
James 62/45 (ASC)
before 62 James the Just; 62 James stoned
ad 63/76 Jose of Arimathea to Glastonbury after 42 yrs in prison
63-107/117 St Simeon crucified
64-8 great fire of Rome
65 hypothetical Q document used by Matt & Lk
Yehoshua ben Hananiah 66 ad
Halley's comet 66
Jewish/Jerusalem revolt/war/destroyed 66-70-73
67 ad "Peter died"
70-200 Tannaim
70 Jamnia; Pella
72 martyrdom Thomas
79 Eucharistus/Evaristus
Vesuvius/Pompey (Italy) ad 79.
Simon 90 (ASC)
1st Cent CE / time-of-Jesus Wakea walk on water (NZ Maori)
90 council Jamnia; fiscus Judaicus
Census Egypt 104 ad.
Lukuas 115 ad?
115-7 Kitos war
Bar Kochba 131/2-135/6.
136 rabbi Akiva martyred
cross found 199/380 (ASC).


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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2018 at 19:20
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Jesus was only 6 months younger than John.

Who told you this? This is another example of reading what we are told to read due to previous commentators. There is nothing in the Gospel narratives that says Jesus was six months older than John.

Luke tells us that Elizabeth was six months pregnant when Mary was visited by Gabriel. But there is nothing in Luke that tells us that Mary got pregnant as soon as Gabriel visited her. There is nothing in Luke that says Mary was actually pregnant during any part of the nativity story of John the Baptist. We have only been told to believe it, but we don't actually see it in the text. 

Firstly, when Gabriel visits Mary, he present's her with a prophecy - "You will conceive," and "The Holy Spirit will come on you,"[Luke 1:31,35] - notice the future tense. There is no sense that Mary has at that very moment become pregnant. It is all yet to happen.

Secondly, when Mary visits Elizabeth and John stirs in the womb, Elizabeth says "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!" [Luke 1:42] - again the future tense. Not 'are bearing' but 'will bear'. Commentators claim that it is the presence of the foetal Jesus in Mary's womb that causes John to stir, but this is not what is written, for Elizabeth says "as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy." [Luke 1:44] It is the voice and presence of Mary which causes the reaction, not the presence of Jesus in her womb. Mary has clearly not yet conceived and is not yet pregnant.

Just as with the mistaken interpretation that the 15th year of Tiberius was also the 30th year of Jesus, we are here being told what to see, rather than thinking about it for ourselves.

So the age of Jesus is no indication of what the age of John was (except that John was older than Jesus). And even if John were the same age as Jesus, we are not told how old John was when he started his ministry. He might have been 25, he might have been 35. There is no set age for starting a ministry. The idea that John must have been about 30 when he started his ministry is another assumption we are led into by just accepting previous commentators.

Jesus might still have been near the age of John. Mary was betrothed to Joseph before Gabriel visited her, and I'm not sure how long a betrothal lasted. When Joseph came to marry her he found her pregnant (and thought to divorce her). She may have only been a few weeks pregnant at that stage. If a betrothal lasted a year, and we know she was already betrothed when Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant, then Jesus could have been about 18 months younger than John - but it does depend on how long a betrothal lasted.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2018 at 23:09
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

 (Have to check out Mandean texts to see if any clues there.) 

The Mandean texts are quite interesting.  http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/gnostic_john_baptist/index.htm - http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/gnostic_john_baptist/index.htm

In The Portent's At John's Birth, the high priest of Jerusalem has a vision;
 "When I lay there, I slept not and rested not, and sleep came not to me by night. I slept not and rested not, [and I beheld] that a star appeared and stood over Enishbai [Elizabeth]. Fire burned in Abā Sābā [Old Father] Zakhriā" and "A star flew down into JudÊa, a star flew down into Jerusalem."

The other priest's cannot interpret it, so they turn to the soothsayer Lilyukh;
Lilyukh writes unto them in the letter and says to them: "The star, that came and stood over Enishbai: A child will be planted out of the height from above; he comes and will be given unto Enishbai. The fire, that burned in Old Father Zakhriā: Yōhānā [John] will be born in Jerusalem."

This "star" fortells the birth of John the Baptist (just as Matthew's Star foretold Jesus).

We are given some priest's name;
Elizar [Eleazer] "head of all the priests"
Yaqif [Jacob] "the priest"
Beni-Amin [Benjamin]
Shilai 
Shalbai
Tab Yōmīn
Zakhria [Zachariah, the father of John]
Anosh [Enoch] "the treasure" 
Lilyukh [maybe not a priest]
Battai [possibly 3 people with same name; he/they is not listed as a priest, but is a messenger when John starts his ministry]

I have noticed that Elizar could be Eleazar ben Boethus, who was priest in 4 BC. However, if it is, then it needs to be noted that he was the first High Priest appointed by Herod Archelaus after Herod the Great had died. And that the pregnancy of Elizabeth is only about to happen in the above quotes, meaning John's birth is at least 9 months away, and Jesus' sometime after that. So Eleazar cannot be used to allot a time for Jesus' birth during the reign of Herod the Great, since Herod is dead before Eleazer becomes High Priest. However, the appearance of a star is noteworthy. I think the other names need to be identified to get a better idea of the time-frame.

Another difficulty with identifying the priests is that not only are they alive before John was born, but they were still alive when John appeared as a prophet. Mandaen scripture reads;
"Yaqif leaves the house of the people, Beni-Amin leaves the temple, Elizar, the great house, leaves the dome of the priests. The priests spake unto Yahyā in Jerusalem."

And when was this ministry? The Mandaen scriptures tell us in one of John the Baptist's proclamations that when he was born the Jews wanted to kill him, so Anosh took him away and brought him up in secret in the mountains.
"[There I remained] until I was two and twenty years old. I learned there the whole of my wisdom and made fully my own the whole of my discourse...and in the seventh hour of a Sunday they brought me to the Jerusalem region. Then cried a voice in JudÊa, a crying proclaimed in Jerusalem." 

The Mandaens say that John started his ministry at the age of 22! Which means if it was in the 15th year of Tiberius (29/30AD), then John was born in 6/7AD, So the Mandeans put a Star and the birth of John in the same time that Luke places Jesus' birth - the census of Quirinius of 6/7AD!  

Certainly curious, but more needs to be investigated, especially with identifying those priests.


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2018 at 01:36
Originally posted by .Sidney

Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Jesus was only 6 months younger than John.

Who told you this? This is another example of reading what we are told to read due to previous commentators. There is nothing in the Gospel narratives that says Jesus was six months older than John.

001:024 After these days Elizabeth, his wife, conceived, and she hid
        herself five months, saying,
001:026 Now in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God
        to a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
001:036 Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son
        in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who
        was called barren.
001:056 Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned
        to her house.

Originally posted by .Sidney


Secondly, when Mary visits Elizabeth and John stirs in the womb, Elizabeth says "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!" [Luke 1:42] - again the future tense. Not 'are bearing' but 'will bear'. Commentators claim that it is the presence of the foetal Jesus in Mary's womb that causes John to stir, but this is not what is written, for Elizabeth says "as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy." [Luke 1:44] It is the voice and presence of Mary which causes the reaction, not the presence of Jesus in her womb. Mary has clearly not yet conceived and is not yet pregnant.


001:015 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink
        no wine nor strong drink.  He will be filled with the Holy Spirit,
        even from his mother's womb.
001:031 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son,
        and will call his name 'Jesus.'
001:041 It happened, when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting,
        that the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled
        with the Holy Spirit.
001:042 She called out with a loud voice, and said, "Blessed are you
        among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
001:043 Why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
001:044 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came into my ears,
        the baby leaped in my womb for joy!
001:045 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment
        of the things which have been spoken to her from the Lord!"
002:021 When eight days were fulfilled for the circumcision of the child,
        his name was called Jesus, which was given by the angel
        before he was conceived in the womb.

I do not agree that the baby John only leaped at Mary and not at baby Jesus in womb, though i agree that your opinion is alternatively possible.

John and Jesus seemingly like twins in some European sources?
See also the Jewish calendar in first post on first page.

Originally posted by .Sidney


Just as with the mistaken interpretation that the 15th year of Tiberius was also the 30th year of Jesus, we are here being told what to see, rather than thinking about it for ourselves.


I strongly object to you half-falsely/-untruly claiming i was/am "mistaken". These are the sorts of subtle wrongs i don't like (always subtle negatives (and nothings), and never any positives).
Anyone who has followed my net/web posts of last 4-11 years knows i think for myself far more than most people and experts.

Thanks for the interesting Mandean text info.
The "star flew down" might confirm a comet not a conjunction.
The 22 yrs is interesting but all the other evidences still suggests 12-3 bc for his birth and/or star and/or census, and i don't see any enough evidences for a 6/7 ad date. 15th of Tiberius has a 4 or so years range of possible date. I consider the biblical as more reliable than the Mandean (though i always do consider all sources as objectively as possible).



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Mar-2018 at 16:55
I assume you are quoting the Gospel of Luke? Could you point out where I have failed to see references to Jesus being in Mary's womb? You are still reading the verses with the assumptions of past commentators (those "European sources" you mention?). I'm not saying the idea is impossible, but I am saying that the idea comes from assumptions. It isn't actually in the Gospel.



Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2018 at 01:17
Yes of course they were quotes from Luke (and/or Matthew), i give them again to confirm my reasons for that Jesus was 6 months younger (or not more than 9 months because they were seemingly implied to be in wombs at same time).

001:015 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink
        no wine nor strong drink.  He will be filled with the Holy Spirit,
        even from his mother's womb.
001:024 After these days Elizabeth, his wife, conceived, and she hid
        herself five months, saying,
001:026 Now in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God
        to a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
001:031 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son,
        and will call his name 'Jesus.'
001:036 Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son
        in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who
        was called barren.
001:041 It happened, when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting,
        that the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled
        with the Holy Spirit.
001:042 She called out with a loud voice, and said, "Blessed are you
        among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
001:043 Why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
001:044 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came into my ears,
        the baby leaped in my womb for joy!
001:045 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment
        of the things which have been spoken to her from the Lord!"
001:056 Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned
        to her house.
002:021 When eight days were fulfilled for the circumcision of the child,
        his name was called Jesus, which was given by the angel
        before he was conceived in the womb.

True the bible doesn't specifically overtly directly say that the baby was in the womb, but it also does not definitely say what you suggest either, and the text does seem to me to pretty well imply that it was. I am not just assuming based on traditional/scholarly/self beliefs of a.d. times.
Either John leaped at baby Jesus in womb, or John leaped at Mary because of her faith (or holy spirit? The catholic idea of Mary being specially great herself is not true in my biblical-based opinion.) Personally i don't see makes much likely sense for John just to leap at Mary's faith but makes more biblical sense that he leaped at baby Jesus which also might be confirmed in that he later also recognised Jesus when he was present at baptisms as seen in these gospel verses:

001:029 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold,
        the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
001:030 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who is preferred
        before me, for he was before me.'
001:031 I didn't know him, but for this reason I came baptizing in water:
        that he would be revealed to Israel."

001:035 Again, the next day, John was standing with two of his disciples,
001:036 and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold,
        the Lamb of God!"

Yes but it doesn't say any time period. Will (English translation) could be 1 minute or 1 year or 100 years.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2018 at 21:31
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

True the bible doesn't specifically overtly directly say that the baby was in the womb, but it also does not definitely say what you suggest either

Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

001:031 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son,
        and will call his name 'Jesus.'
002:021 When eight days were fulfilled for the circumcision of the child,
        his name was called Jesus, which was given by the angel
        before he was conceived in the womb. 

But I accept that we will just have to disagree over what we are seeing with our own eyes. 

I'm still looking for other early sources that could help date Jesus' birth.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2018 at 06:39
There is a passage that supports my view taken from Origen's "Against Celsus" written in 248, in opposition to the writings of the 2nd Century pagan philosopher, Celsus. Origen quotes from Celsus;

Chaldeans are spoken of by Jesus as having been induced to come to him at his birth, and to worship him while yet an infant as a God, and to have made this known to Herod the tetrarch; and that the latter sent and slew all the infants that had been born about the same time, thinking that in this way he would ensure his death among the others; and that he was led to do this through fear that, if Jesus lived to a sufficient age, he would obtain the throne. 

Origen objects to this passage because Celsus has 'Chaldeans' whereas the Gospel has 'Magi'. He has no other criticism. He completely passes over the reference to "Herod the tetrarch", showing that he has no objection to it. But "Herod the tetrarch cannot be Herod the Great, since the tetrarchy didn't exist until after he died and his kingdom was divided between his sons.

A 2nd Century pagan author wrote that Jesus was born in the reign of Herod's son, and a 3rd Century Christian author did not object to it. 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2018 at 17:19
The 2nd Century Christian, Justin Martyr, in his "First Apology" - dated to 155-157 AD - states that;
 "we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius," (First Apology, 1:68).


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2018 at 18:14
About 50 years after Justin wrote, Clement of Alexandria (c.200 AD) in his "Stromata" dates Jesus' birth thus;

"And our Lord was born in the twenty-eighth year, when first the census was ordered to be taken in the reign of Augustus."
[Assuming this to be the 28th year of Augustus, when did Augustus start reigning? We know Augustus died in Aug 14 AD. Clement gives two conflicting lengths of reign - 43 years, or 46 years 4 months and one day. Counting backwards that means Augustus started to reign in 30 BC or 36 BC. 30 BC is when Augustus defeated Anthony, and so technically was sole ruler, This makes his 28th year - and Jesus' birth - to be 3/2 BC. But historically his reign as Emperor only started in 27 BC, which puts his 28th year - and Jesus' birth - in 1 AD]

Clement elsewhere says; 
"[From] the victory of Augustus, when Antony killed himself at Alexandria...when Augustus was made consul for the fourth time...to the games which Domitian instituted at Rome, are a hundred and fourteen years; and from the first games to the death of Commodus, a hundred and eleven years."
[Commodus died Dec 192, so 111 years beforehand would be 81 AD, when the Colosseum was opened. 114 years before 81 AD would be 34 BC for Augustus' victory over Anthony. But two things are wrong here. The games that Domitian is remembered for instituting were the Capitoline Games in 86 AD and not the Colosseum, and Augustus defeated Anthony and was made consul for the fourth time in in 30 BC. Clement is 4/5 years out]

"Accordingly, in fifteen years of  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14717b.htm - Tiberius  and fifteen years of Augustus; so were completed the thirty years till the time He [Jesus] suffered." (Stromata Ch.21)
[Clement is claiming that Christ lived 15 years under Tiberius and fifteen years under Augustus. Since Augustus died in 14 AD, then Jesus was born in 1 BC and died in 29 AD]

"And from the time that He [Jesus] suffered till the destruction of Jerusalem are forty-two years and three months; and from the destruction of Jerusalem to the death of Commodus, a hundred and twenty-eight years, ten months, and three days."
[42 years and 3 months + 128 years and 10 months = 171 years between death of Jesus and death of Commodus, who died in Dec 192 AD. This puts the passion in 21 AD. But Jerusalem was destroyed in Sept 70 AD, so 42 years and 3 months before hand, puts the Passion in June 28 AD. From the destruction of Jerusalem in Sept 70 AD to the death of Commodus in Dec 192 AD is 122 years and 2 months, but Clement puts it at 128 years and ten months - a difference of nearly 7 years.]

"From the birth of Christ, therefore, to the death of Commodus are, in all, a hundred and ninety-four years, one month, thirteen days."
[Commodus died Dec 192 AD, so 194 years, 1 month and 13 days beforehand would be Nov 3 BC. But previously Clement computed 171 years from the death of Christ to Commodus. If the birth of Christ was 194 years before the death of Commodus, then Jesus was 23 when he died. If the Passion was in 21 AD - as Clement has above - then Jesus was born 3/2 BC. Oddly, if the Passion was 28 AD - as Clement also has - then Jesus was born in 5 AD. But we know that Clement is out on his computations]

"And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon"..."others say that He was born on the twenty-fourth or twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi."   
[The 28th year of Augustus is mentioned again. It seems that Clement has different dates from which to start Augustus' reign, computing his reign as lasting 43 or 46 years. All of Clement's dates around the birth of Jesus are based on computing backwards from when Commodus died, but he clearly gets the figures wrong by up to 7 years, so his accuracy over the matter is not reliable.] 


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2018 at 02:05
Thanks Sidney this is really great info. I have to look into this info in next days before i can offer any comments. Some figures happen to be similar to ones i have had come up in the previous posts thinkings but i have to see if i can remember them or if/where i noted them to see if they may agree. Just for now:

Luke 1 also says Herod the king. So Matthew and Luke both agree that Jesus/John was conceived/born in Herod the king's reign. Russian Josephus or Mandean text seems to says John Baptist spoke to Archelaus at beginning of his ministry (ca 22 y.o. in Mandean), which if it was genuine/reliable would imply he must have been born before Archelaus 10 yrs reign, though Simon mentioned in Josephus might possibly link with Simon in Luke.

The 28th year could be of Herod (in Josephus just before that decree of Augustus & Censorinus that i mentioned seemed similar to Lukes census).

Cyrenius is the 37th yr of Augustus in Josephus, which would put 28th year about 9 years before to about 4 bc, and confirms Jesus born before Archelaus.

Josephus has Augustus with 57 yrs (14 yrs with Antony) and died at 77 yrs old.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2018 at 09:15
Clement's calculations are based on an attempt to show that the prophecy in Daniel - the "seventy weeks" - was fulfilled by the fall of Jerusalem by Vespasian. 

As Clement interpretes it thus;
"In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said."

Clement's dating of Jesus is therefore not from an independent source (an official record, or handed down memory), but relies on his interpretation of when Jesus must have been born based on how Clement is working out the prophecy. This is why a number of his other dates are inaccurate - he is fitting them into a created time-frame, rather than reflecting  an historical one. Clement's prophecy interpretation says Jesus was born 'x' number of years since Daniel's vision, which is worked out as being the 28th year of Augustus. Thus the 28th year of Augustus must be the year Jesus was born, because that fits the prophecy. 

Tertullian in his "Answer to the Jews" written about 200 AD (the same time as Clement) does the same thing. He too sets out to show that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled Daniels prophecy;

"Accordingly, showing, (as we have done,) both the number of the years, and the time of the lx two and an half fulfilled hebdomads, on completion of which, (we have shown) that Christ has come, that is, has been born,"

"Vespasian, in the first year of his empire, subdues the Jews in war; and there are made lii years, vi months. For he reigned xi years. And thus, in the day of their storming, the Jews fulfilled the lxx hebdomads predicted in Daniel." [Answer to the Jews, Ch.8]

Tertullian agrees with Clement on the year of Jesus' birth [2 BC] (based as they both are on the prophecy time-frame);
"in the forty-first year of the empire of Augustus, when he has been reigning for xx and viii years after the death of Cleopatra, the Christ is born." 

But, as with Clement, Tertullian has errors created by his need to make the dates fit the prophecy, rather than him relying on some independent date for Jesus' birth. For instance, he claims the period between Christ's birth to the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD) was 52 years. 

Because this date was worked out using Biblical prophecy, it became the 'official version' of when Jesus was born (other Christian writers from the same period and after follow Clement and Tertullian). But writers before them, or who were outside the dominant Christian faith (Justin Martyr, Josephus, Celsus, the Mandaens, Luke), did not rely on the prophecy, and gave a different indication as to Jesus' birth date.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2018 at 10:00
Originally posted by .Sidney

The 2nd Century Christian, Justin Martyr, in his "First Apology" - dated to 155-157 AD - states that;
 "we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius," (First Apology, 1:68).
150 years before Justion wrote this is c.5-7 AD

Justin in the same work mentions Jesus' birth in Bethlehem;
"Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judæa."

Since Cyrenius was the first procurator of Judea, then the taxation occurred after Herod Archelaus had been deposed in 6 AD. This is exactly what Josephus says, and what the Gospel of Luke indicates.


Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2018 at 21:53
We will just have to agree to disagree on this point. You seem to be sure that Jesus was born in reign of Archealus as supposedly said/implied by Luke (with partial support of Josephus) in contrast to Matthew, while i am positive that both Matthew and Luke say/imply that Jesus was born during reign of Herod the King/Great before Archelaus.
I am fairly confient that he was born between 12-3 bc, and crucified between 26-36 ad, but i haven't been able to yet solve this 9/10/11 years uncertainty. Possibly the bible skip code might confirm the nature of the Star of Bethlehem, but i don't have any software or other resources to do code search in Greek/Hebrew/English NT & OT texts, and it might be cheating instead of solving it our self.


In my post on the Star being Halleys i did suggest that Daniels 70 weeks was from Daniel to destruction of Jerusalem,with the last week being 12 bc to 66 ad two Halley's comets (generations?). (Inversing 70 x 7 yrs to 7 x 70 yrs.) The middle of the week would be ca 27 ad.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2018 at 02:37
There is certainly something amiss with the belief that early Christian writers all agreed on when Jesus was born. 



Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2018 at 08:27

"In the 32nd year of Herod and the 309th year of Alexander, was born our Lord the Messiah.... Prior to that year, the Romans had sent the judge (legate) Cyrinus to count the population subject to tax. .... The learned Greek Longinus introduces this event in the 3rd part of his book.... His mother Mary was 13 years old; the duration of her whole life was 51 years, she lived 6 years after the Ascension of Our Lord Christ. It was the 44th year of Augustus Caesar. 2 years after his birth, he was transported to Egypt at night when the Magi came to him, and he stayed in Egypt; He was then aged 4.... Then Herod died, having lived in his city 70 years, he reigned 34, in the year 44 of Caesar. .... After the death of Herod, Archelaus succeeded him in the year 45 of Augustus Caesar in the year 312 of Alexander; and Archelaus ruled for 9 years. ... Herod as successor who reigned 28 years. Augustus lived 75 years and died after having reigned for 56 years.... Tiberius Caesar reigned for 23 years and lived 78 years. The 1st year of his reign, there was a great earthquake, and several cities were knocked down and many men and animals killed. In the year 7 of his reign, Herod built a city and called it Tabariye (Tiberias).... In the year 14 the procurator Pilate was sent to the Jews (in Judaea). In the year 15 (of Tiberius), Our Lord Christ ... was baptized by John.... He had returned ... our Lord Christ ... was 30 years old.... In the year 19 of Tiberius Caesar, and in the year 342 of Alexander, Our Lord Christ was crucified .... The philosophers in their books tell that the days of the Passion of Christ, ... in the volume ... kings, that, during the reign of Caesar, the sun was darkened, and it became night at the 9th hour and the stars appeared: there was a strong earthquake at Nicaea and in all the surrounding cities.... The philosopher Ursinus says in the 5th chapter of his book ...: "We were in great grief and long anguish. The sun was darkened and the earth shook.... .... There were between Hannan and Caiphas less than 4 years, according to Eusebius.... In the year 17 of Tiberius Caesar, and in the year 341 of Alexander, 1 year before the crucifixion of our Lord the Christ ... Abgar the Black, king of Edessa, sent messengers to some towns.... Cephas ... was bishop for 25 years, until the 13th year of Nero...."

Agapius, Universal History (1909) part 2. pp.1-287.
[Translated by Alexander Vasiliev]
The 2nd Part Of The History Of Mahboub, Son Of Constantine,
Of Mebidj [Carchemish/Jerablus], Bishop Of The City Od Menbidj.



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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.



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