Let's be a bit more specific - the language of the Kalash and Pathans are Iranic. And do you realize Pathan is the same as Pashtun? The Pathans in Afghanistan and Pakistan number at roughly 50 million (correct me if I am wrong).

Interesting, as far as I was aware only the Kalash claimed to be descended from Alexander's soldiers not the Pathans.

Well, it is a common occurance that blatant Iranic groups are not given their specific recognition throughout by countries with a weak national (and I don't mean this in a derogatory manner) history and fractuous polity such as Pakistan and certain Central Asian countries. That is why I corrected the vague "Indo-European" classification.

You'll find also significant genetic similarities between Iranian (country) populations and Greeks, but this is more attributed to ancient IE origins rather than Alexander's army, although they have surely left their genetic legacy too.

I can't imagine Pathans being descended from the Greek army, they are a distinct people with an unambiguous history. 

Alexander also recruited Iranians into his Army before he moved further East and it is interesting that the Kalash language is Iranian in such a linguistically isolated area from other Iranian branches.

I have never heard of the third group before. Apparently their language can't quite be pinpointed.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Burushaski-language - http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Burushaski-language

Apparently so.

Kalash words-Hellenic ones

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���-"���"

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di-����

To those who know Hellenic:

http://www.poa.gr/periodiko/no13/kalas.htm - http://www.poa.gr/periodiko/no13/kalas.htm

Have you ever seen Kurdish dancing?  one of the variations also looks similar Greek.

Actually the Dorian and Kurdish drum rythms are the same too.

hehe, the "Greek" asimilation on Macedonians goes on or what?

trying to false the history again'?

hehe, so funny...

your claims here are pathetic...

many of the dances are much more similar with the traditional Macedonian Dances, & the language have nothing common with ancient greek, but very similar with old MACEDONIAN & today Macedonian language.

read the studies & disertations that are made by number of woldwide respected scholars.

than, pls learn how many Macedonians & how many Greeks fought in Aleksanda�s army

 than study good the chain of "reactions" & happenings, also the "rebellion" that greek cities made against Macedonian authorities in Greece DURING the Aleksandar�s conquest.

than study all the ancient chronics & read how many greeks fought VS Aleksanda�s army (& why they did that)

than ask yourself why Macedonia (Makedon) was Kingdom, & Greek Cities / Greek (Hellenic) Aliance was "demokratia" (democracy?)

than ask yourself why in the most famous "greek" legends (Iliad & Odisee?)  there is no greek words, but many Macedonian.

than ask yourself why you need to steal other  ppl history / identity

are you ashame of your own? no need, man...

than we come to the point: pls do not steal our history, we will always reveal your lies

why? the common things between the today Macedonian language & ancient language from Aleksanda�s army is not relevant to you?

i agree, stop screwing up every single topic with your BS.

how i spell Aleksandar is my thing, who said i want to spell it as you want to see it spelled?

Alexandros is the "greek" version of Aleksandar, in our culture & civilisation, he was always Aleksandar.

i can provide you with STUDIES & WORKS from INTERNATIONAL scholars, from Universities accros the world, covering THIS subject - the claims from some etnic groups that they are descends from Aleksandars army!

i can provide you with serious studies about the folklour heritage / traditions / linguistic analizes,  you like to?

or you keep on your  bla bla level?

about opening topics: i�ve just started

i will... many topics

& i am happy to "beat" your "evidence"

@ admins, mods & all rest:

i am NOT here to argue or insult anyone!!!

i can not just stand how someone try to assimilate my people / steal our history & cultural heritage!

i am carefull not to hurt feelings, only trying to give my point of view about things concidering my country.

if i understand your writings good (in other topics), i guess almost everyone of you would try to defend his people / country.

so you want to forbit me the right you demand for yourself?

is that greek democracy? is that the world democracy?

so, again, STOP insulting & grow up on the level of civilized communication, or no1 will ever believe you that you (greeks) have or had any culture anytime!

peace to all

Ok, not just how He does, but it is how it is spelled in ENGLISH. This forum is in English, and we should communicate in English, not  Bulgarian or Makedonian.

1. Not all city states were democracies.

2. Macedonia was a Kingdom and a region, just as Thessaly is a region.

3. The Greek city states did not want to be dominated by another kingdom, so isnt it natural to fight back?

4. Were Athenians not Greeks, but a separate Athenian ethnicity? Should another Athenian country be set up, and claim all heritage from Athens? No, that is rediculous, but Tito didnt think it was. Macedonians were Greek just as Spartans, Thebeans, Athenians.

Dude, you really need to mellow out.

Back to the topic. This is indeed a very interesting part of world history. In essence these villages are still somewhat Greek in nature. I have read (sorry I forget where, that the Huns destroyed many many such Hellenic settlements during their invasions that eventually ended up wrecking havoc in Europe. Can anyone confirm this? I have also heard there are such communities in Afganistan and India as well.

Original Investigation

Abstract 
Three populations from northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash, and Pathan, claim descent from soldiers left behind by Alexander the Great after his invasion of the Indo-Pak subcontinent. In order to investigate their genetic relationships, we analyzed nine Alu insertion polymorphisms and 113 autosomal microsatellites in the extant Pakistani and Greek populations. Principal component, phylogenetic, and structure analyses show that the Kalash are genetically distinct, and that the Burusho and Pathan populations are genetically close to each other and the Greek population. Admixture estimates suggest a small Greek contribution to the genetic pool of the Burusho and Pathan and demonstrate that these two northern Pakistani populations share a common Indo-European gene pool that probably predates Alexanders invasion. The genetically isolated Kalash population may represent the genetic pool of ancestral Eurasian populations of Central Asia or early Indo-European nomadic pastoral tribes that became sequestered in the valleys of the Hindu Kush Mountains.

http://www.springerlink.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=9befe06ae5fd45e0b256418366403f9e&referrer=parent&backto=issue,8,14;journal,16,113;linkingpublicationresults,1:100421,1 - Link

----------

Probably predates???
Central Asian???

Anyone that can clear this for me, cause I'm lost

Dear serdarot,

As you know the were two nations for the Greeks these yrs. Greeks and barbarians. As you also know (i guess) in the Olympic games only Greek could take part and not any kind of barbarians. As you also know Alexander was participating to the Olympics (and he won a medal).

As you know Macedonias (just like spartans etc) loved Greek gods. As you also know Macedonians were speaking a Greek dialect (as all Greek cities had their own dialect).

Now please tell me a few things :

1. Since you know all the above (i guess you do), which are historically proven, do you have any question that you want me to clear for you?

2. Who are you? i mean your country. i really dont know. you saddenly wake up and say "Hey hold on! im Macedonian. The Greeks stole my history!". Where have you been the rest of the years? Its not ironic. i trully dont know.

3. Have you ever been to the grave of Alexander's father Phillp? There are some Greek written there. i wonder how they got there. 

4. you are reffering to your culture & civilisation. Ok. Can you please tell me about your culture & civilisation.

Thank you

Originally posted by Phallanx Probably predates??? Central Asian??? Anyone that can clear this for me, cause I'm lost

Well, I will speak for the Pashtuns, they are Iranic by culture and langauge.  As we know Iranics are Indo_Europids and this very fact automatically gives them genetic commonality with other IE cultures, to a varying extent.

Genetic studies (one notably carried out by Sforza) inficated that Hellenes and Iranians are closest to each other genetically than to any other group,. Though I doubt the accuracy of this, as I do not believe a big enough Iranian sample was examined. The primary genetic similarites willl be down to an ancient common descent, but then, this above study also says that a more recent trace of similiraity has been detected, and IT IS THIS similarity which they attribute to the Greek army.

There are many strong evidences linking Philistines with the island of Crete, or as they call it, 'Kaphtor'.

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=03731 - http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=03731

If you take a look at ancient sources you can find:

- Herodotus stating that the Palestinians originally came from the isle of Crete.

- "saith the Lord: Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt, and the Philistines from Caphtor, and Aram from Kir?" (Amos 9:7).

- Tacitus, "The Jews are said to have been refugees from the island of Crete who settled in the remotest corner of Libya"

- Jeremiah, "Ah, Yahweh will destroy the Philistines,Last leavings of Caphtor's isle ".[Jer. 47:4 (Bright 1980, (1980, 309)]

- Sophonius, "Beware to you that live on the shore and to the land of Crete"

Of course there are more proofs about the ties of Philistines with Crete. The first settlement of Philistines seems to have been Gaza, whose original name was "Minoah", a clear reference to the fallen Minoic kingdom.

Human these questions are too difficult for them.

"The Macedonian Question, is more than a mere squabble over a name. It is a well-designed scheme for annexing the northern Greek provinces of Macedonia  and Thrace. It started during the inter-war period, by the decisions of the Comintern and the Balkan communist parties seeking to establish a united (Macedonian and Thracian) State. Subsequently it was Tito, in 1944, who tried to establish such a State within Yugoslavia. He changed the name of Southern Serbia (which had been known as Vardashka since 1913) to "Macedonia" and then proceeded to establish, out of the Slavs of the region (Bulgarians and Serbs), a new Slavic nation inappropriately called "Macedonian".

To transform this theoretical concept into a political reality Tito:

1. Concocted in 1944 a "Macedonian government" as a first step to the setting up of a Socialist Republic of Macedonia".
2. Dubbed the local Slavonic dialect "Macedonian language". A special committee worked for years to turn this dialect into the "official Macedonian language".
3. In 1968 the "Macedonian Church" came into being irregularly, by a government coup. As a result, it was not recognized as a formal Church by any Orthodox Patriarchs or by the Vatican.
4. In 1969, the "History of the Macedonian nation" was published. Any reference in the world's archives to Macedonia and to historical figures and historical events connected in any way with Macedonia over the millennia, was manipulated and forcibly given a "Macedonian (Slavic) identity".

Thus, politicians and historians collaborated: 

1. to usurp the name, the emblems, and the history of Macedonia;
2. to set in motion expansionist aspirations, by renaming Greek Macedonia as "Aegean Macedonia", i.e. part of a united Macedonia and issued maps limiting Greece's northern frontiers to Mount Olympus;
3. to allege the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in Greece.

Their theoretical basis for these claims was based on the assertion that:

1. The ancient Macedonians, Alexander the Great, the Ptolemies, etc. were not Greeks (an allegation which is repeated in the recent FYROM's school textbooks for 1992-3).
2. After the arrival of Slavic tribes in the Balkans in the 6th century AD those Slavs, that managed to reach the Byzantine Provinces of Ancient Macedonia, intermarried with the local non-Greek Macedonians and thus they formed a new ethnic group, the "Slavo Macedonians" who subsequently were simply referred to as "Macedonians".

Lack of the slightest credibility on the part of the pseudo-Macedonian "nation" of Skopje is furthermore revealed by the single fact that Skopje's Bulgarians and Serbs discovered only after 1944 that back in the sixth century they had been transformed from Slavs into Macedonians.

To claim that the Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, however, and to use the term "Slav" with reference to the creation of the "Macedonian nation" is a trick.

The "Macedonian Nation" does not, nor did it ever exist. The Macedonians were Greeks, they spoke the same language and worshipped the same gods (who were inhabiting the Macedonian mountain of Olympus) and performed the same sacrifices, in the same sanctuaries as all the other Greeks.

The Macedonians, together with the rest of Greeks, possess according to Herodotus, the kind and constituent element that composed a nation:

"And next the kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common and the likeness of our way of life " Herodotus, History VIII, 144,2 (Loeb, A.D. Godley)."

By the way there aren't any descendants of the ancient Macedonians (in the same way there aren't descendants of Dorians, Ionians, Acheans etc) and all the Greeks share mixed genes of the ancient populations. The fact that some non-Greek people claim to be Macedonians (so the descendants of ancient Macedonians) because some of their ancestors lived in Macedonia in the recent past while this region was populated by Greeks, Bulgars, Slavs, Albanians, Turks, is simply a ridiculous bedtime story.

 

Sounds very similar to a communist plot in a country just north of Iran.

Excellent research Dorian!

Hello everyone, this is my first post.  Let me just give a first impression:

I am amazed that you all have so much detailed knowledge of such a large number of relatively inconsequential ethnic groups.  Also, I am amazed how rude and insulting you are to each other.  From personal experience, I have found out that ethnic groups in this part of the world tend to hate each other with a passion.  I would hope that you do not bring this emnity here to this science of history.  Lets be civilized and show hospitality to each other.

My interest in the subject is limited to an explanation I have made in my study of civilizations that Hindu society originate from a brutal religion-lingual-culture called "IndoEuropean" which migrated thru Iran from north and northwest and into Pakistan in about 1,500 b.c. and which absorbed gods into its system from the matrilineal people in the Indus valley which they conquered.

I am interested if there is any further light the group can shed on this.

charles

http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com - http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

There are many differing points of view on that subject based on mostly on selective evidence, I think you should start a new thread with your theory and perhaps go as in depth with it as you can it is an interesting topic to moot.

I am sorry to say that there is a fat chance of that with Turks, Greeks, Armenians, Iranians and Arabs in the same place it's the perfect recipe for anything but civilized.

I didn't exempt myself you know.

Yes Phallanx, and Medians from Medea.

The problem here is that everyone is kinda of "that's flat" and it makes the discussion difficult.

Brutal Indoeuropeans? Why?

The Pashtuns are ignorant about their own history.  Pashtuns have a folktale claiming they are descendants from ancient Israelites and became Muslims after one of their ancestors travelled to Arabia and made them Muslims.  This folktale has been proven a myth.  The only tribe of some peculiar, if not mistakened relationship with Jews are the Afridis.  Herodotus mentions them as the "Aparutae".  Afridis do not call themselves Afridis, but "Apridi".  And the root word, "Aparu" may signify "Hebrew."  Other than that shady relationship, there is no real connection.   Ironically, the Afridis claim a different descent.

The Afridi Pashtun tribesmen claim descent from Alexander's armies, and Caroe (British Historian) did see some qualities of them that reminded him of Alexander's armies, but he later admitted that this tale might have just been passed down from more recent Islamic texts describing Alexander.

Pashtuns themselves are most likely mix of Hamuvargan Scythians of Ferghana Valley (currently split b/w Uzbekistan/Tajikistan/Kyrghizstan), mixed with other Scythian tribes such as the Tu-Chih (Tocharians) who amalgamated with the Turkified descendants of the Hephtalites,  and the Yue-Chih (Kushans), and are related with peoples of the Pamir who speak Eastern Iranian langauges.  Even today their makekup is mixing.  They are absorbing the Nuristani peoples, and have already absorbed the Indo-European Ormuri speaking peoples of Logar and Khost/Paktika.  In Peshawar, they absorbed the Hindko-speaking peoples, and in the capital city of Baluchistan, Pashtuns are now 50% of the population.    Currently I believe they comprise the largest tribal society in the world with a total of 40 Million+ people, not including their descendants in India, Guyana, and Australia.

As for the Nuristanis, Greeks claim them to be of Greek descent, but most likely they were not Greek, and they saw their likeness in them because like them, they are Indo-Europeans, and lots of words are similiar between Greek (which has a big indo-European influence) and Indo-Aryan languages of Eastern Afghanistan, NW pakistan.

In my belief the Nuristanis/Chitralis/Kalash people are Iranian, but not Persian, and definitely not Greeks.  As for the invading Greeks themselves, their armies were all mixed, from Assyrians, to Lodians, to Iranians themselves, intermixed and settled in Afghanistan and Pushtun/Afghan tribal regions of NW Pakistan.  Cities such as Kohat, Bagram, etc, were recognized as areas where Alexander's armies passed.  To say they are descendants of Greeks would be false, to say there is some admixture, its possible.  But then its also possible in Transoxiana too.

That is my belief as well. I don't think that enough Greeks settled in this area to make any significant impact in the population. Regarding the language, as Afghanan mentioned, Greek and Iranian are both Indoeuropean languages, so the basic word-roots are similar.

Of course, it's a nice story and if they believe it to be so, that's fine by me 

wait, did I miss something?  Can you elaborate on the philistine-greek link?

Well Hello Everyone!! It's my first post so I'll probably just recao everything you've said  

I'm Pashtun too though from the Pakistani side in the NWFP. Most Pashtuns I know dont think much of the Israelite theory mentioned above, and neither does genetic research. This paper was published in the "American Journal of Human Genetics" titled "Y-­Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan" in May, 2002 and conducted by (1) Cancer Research Campaign, Chromosome Molecular Biology Group, Department of Biochemistry and Institute of Biological Anthropology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK, (2) deCODE Genetics, Reykjavik, and (3) Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan Research Laboratries, Islamabad.

"Two populations, the Kashmiris and the Pathans, also lay claim to a possible Jewish origin. Jewish populations commonly have a moderate frequency of haplogroup 21 (e.g., 20%) and a high frequency of haplogroup 9 (e.g., 36%; (Hammer et al. 2000). The frequencies of both of these haplogroups are low in the Kashmiris and Pathans, and haplogroup 28 is present at 13% in the Pathans, so no support for a Jewish origin is found, and the admix­ ture estimate was 0% (table 3), although, again, this conclusion is limited both by the small sample size avail­able from Kashmir and by the assumption that the mod­ ern samples are representative of ancient populations."

So I doubt there's much in that theory.

I'd agree there's definitely some Scythian mixing in Pashtun genes. Figures have been quoted as follows.

"The Y-Chromosome for Pashtuns has the following Haplogroups with the corresponding frequencies.

Hg1 10% (Prevalent in Westen Europe)
Hg2 15% (Prevalent in Northeastern Europe)
Hg3 45% (Prevalent in Northeastern Europe and North-West South Asia) 

Hg9 6% (This is represented in Jews 36% so it is a Jewish gene marker )
Hg21 2% (This is represented in Jews 20% and is almost a Jewish gene marker)
Hg26 6%
Hg28 13% (Prevalent in Central Asia)"

Hg3 can be called an Euroasian halopgroup which is said to have originated in Ukraine during late glacial age. But in Northeast Europeans then Hg16 is very higly represented (in Russians 50%, Estonians 32.4%) except Polish in whom it is 2.4%."

Pashtuns are not of the same lineage as Arabs either according to haplogroups.

---------------Hg1---Hg2----Hg3----Hg9-----Hg21---Hg26----Hg 28

Pashtun------12-----16-----45------6--------2-------0.0----- --13
Israelite------8.4----6.3----1.4-----55.2-----20.3---7.0---- ---0.0
Palestinian---9.0----5.0----0.0-----51.0-----19.0---10.0---- --0.0
Syrian--------10.0-- 3.0----9.0-----57.0-----10.0---11.0-----0.0
Lebanese---- 0.0----13.4---4.0---- 46.0-----29.0---4.0------ 0.0
Saudi Arabia-5.0---- 5.0--- 19.0---33.0----- 5.0----38.0----- 0.0

As evident from the above data, Pashtun haplogroups are almost exclusively Hg1, Hg2, Hg3, and Hg28 whereas Middle Eastern populations like Israelites, Palestinians, etc. have Hg9, Hg21, and Hg26. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26.

Hg2 is thought to have originated somwhere around Macedonia/Greece.

http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol80No3/125.pdf - www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol80No3/125.pdf

Hg3:

A change(mutation) occured in the Y-Chromosome of a people inhabiting the Euroasian steppes, i.e. the present Ukraine and the areas north to the Black Sea, at the end of late glacial period (some 14000 to 20000 years ago). Later, these people multiplied and migrated, spreading the changed Y-Chromosome over a wide area. The people carrying this specific mutation in their chromosome today are said to be in haplogroup 3 (Hg3). Both the Y-Chromosomes of Kashmiris and Pashtuns carry this same mutations and therefore they are in Hg3. This in effect means they originated from the same ancestor.

Hg2:

Another specific change occured, at the end of late glacial period, in the Y-Chromosome of a people that inhabited the Balkans. This mutation was later spread through migrations and increase in population. Today, the people carrying this particular mutation in their chromosomes are said to be in Hg2.

Hg1:

There were some people living in the caves of Iberian Penensula at the end of late glacial period. A particular type of mutation occured in their Y-Chromosomes. Today, the group of human beings carrying this mutation in their chromosome are said to be in haplogroup 1 (Hg1).

Hg28

HG 28 is frequent in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent

I'd go for Pashtuns being a Ukrainian/Greek/Spanish/Central Asian mix (some have Far Eastern mixing too probably). Too much or sound about right?

Hi and welcome to the Forum!

I'm affraid that I'm totally illeterate when it comes to understanding genetics, but I'm sure Maju would like to comment!

The Kalash tribe in the North of Pakistan do claim to be direct descendants of Alexander the Great. Here's a couple of pictures, if you think they look Macedonian.

All of these Kalasha girls resemble Makedonians that i know and they live thousands of miles away. The languages are very close too.

Maju your posts on genetic threads are impressive.

One must remember that the bactrian Greeks were funneled into pakistan by the saka invasions. They founded the indo-greek kingdoms 180 Bc-10ad ruling pakistan for 190 years with their capital in Sialkot, Punjab. The continuity of their presence in the region can be detected  even longer under the rule of the Sakas and Kushanas (who called themselves Philhellenes) until 4th cent. Ad. Thats perhaps 600 years of continous presence (longer if you begin with alexander).  longer then anywhere outside Grecia Magna and Alexandria. But here they were seperated by thousands of miles and hostile empires, unable to return home even if they wanted to.It was only with the devestating Hunnish invasions of the 5th cent. that the records dissapear.And after this date we can only speculate of their presence among the Budddhist populations of which there are records. Reminants of  other groups of foreign  peoples are  found in pockets all over the region( hazara mongols, mikrani africans etc., as the social nature of the subcontinent promotes hetrogenicity). The recent earthquakes have also highlighted the remote and isolated nature of the region. It would not be surprising if there was a link between the Kailash and the Macedonian Greeks. Only further genetic research can shed light on this fascinating and often overlooked subject.

Gandhara school of Indo-Greek art

Who can say what is in the genetic substratum, but whatever the case the results are beautiful!

This has been an interesting forum, However I was a little sus and kinda shocked someone used blonde haired girls then calimint them to be Greeks, Greeks are not Blonde and western European looking, so many movies potrays Alexander as blonde and so on......

However as I told my classical studies and anceint Greek lecturers I do not agree he was Greek, Thracian yes, Macaedonean yes with some Persian mixed in since for 150 years it was part of the Persian Empire, and Persian nobility mixed with everyone, the satraps married royalty and nobles in the countries they governed or sent too.

But who cares His lineage, I still believe he was a Monster who destroyed one of the few times this region had peace, he conquered the Persian armies only to be conqured by Persian Culture......... and we have Greek litrature to back that up. Hvae a nice day everyone

Something to do with the Y-Chromosomal / Macedonian connection.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589 - http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=44 7589

Uhmm what are you on about??? I spoke of no genetic stats, but being that according to Greek sources 1 million Persian Troops were stationed in Macedonia.... ohh Persians attack Greece for attack Sardis and other cities in Anatolia, they only punished the Greeks for buring Sardis and looting it..... Hellenic culture did not Survive in Persia for long. Even Greek sources written in his time disclaimed him to be Greek.

To call someone Great they must have accomplished and created something, this is my opinion and he created nothing.

Hi again. Thanks for the replies. The above haplomap shows the Pakistani Kalash group which was talked about above has a very similar haplogroup distribution as the Yugoslavian (former Macedonian) one. HG 28 seems to have found it's way into Kalash though, which probably isnt surprising, but for the three major haplogroups there's a good correlation. Perhaps there's some truth in them being direct descendants of the Macedonians after all.

There's very little HG9 in Pakistani Pathan and Kalash, which I'm assuming came from Arab migrations to the region. They probably came from the South, so Sindhis etc would have a high amount, though Kashmiris in the North have a high amount too.

Pakistani Kashmiri has no HG2, which I find odd (light blue). If the Macedonians went there there should be some. But I guess Alexander the Greats Empire didnt extend much past the Indus as shown.

http://library.thinkquest.org/10805/alexmap.html - http://library.thinkquest.org/10805/alexmap.html  

http://www.classbrain.com/art_cr/publish/pakistan_color_map.shtml - http://www.classbrain.com/art_cr/publish/pakistan_color_map. shtml  

Though if the Scythians migrated to the Kashmiri region to add to Haplogroup 3, they would have added some HG2 (blue) as well as HG3.  

I'm not sure what you mean by lax reference, or by Hg1 and Hg2 not having a specific lineage, i'll look it up later. What I'm thinking is this. It's very simplistic I know, very likely not the whole picture, but just something I thought up just now. Hg3 mutation originated somewhere around the Eurasian Steppes, Eastern Europe perhaps Slovakia, Poland or even Czech or Ukraine. I think this is the currently held view, the site of the Kurgan culture. Migrations from here began around 3000 BC.

Take the first instant of Alexander the Greats Army entering Pakistan and settling in the area. He marched as far East as Punjab, Eastern Pakistan. From what I know he didnt go into India, but the Greco Bactrian kingdom later expanded into some Northern areas of India. This would place, perhaps a fair amount of HG2 into the population (assuming the Yugo haplogroupings didnt change much over the years: if anyone knows the recent history of invasions into that area, that might help). It is believed by some that the Kalash tribe are direct descendants of Alexander the Great and their haplogroup charting is very similar to the Macedonian one in terms of the major three percentages. The rest of the Pakistani populations we know mixed up in the furture (from 400 BC to present). But the Kalash are a good example of Macedonian settlement in the region, so this was probably a major migration. The Scythians we know invaded around 200 or 400 years later, so they would have brought with them Haplogroup 3. This might be reflected in the increased HG 3 found in Pakistani Pathan but not in Kalash who claim to be a pure line of Alexander the Great (Macedonian). There was also a Hun invasion after that, though it looks as though only Pakistani Hazaras carry the genetic haplotgroup C of Mongols, they also claim to be direct descendants of Genghis Khan.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v72n3/024530/024530.text.html?erFrom=-9123523380586873369Guest - http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v72n3/0 24530/024530.text.html?erFrom=-9123523380586873369Guest  

The Scythians entered Pakistan around 100 AD, the Greeks around 400 BC. Obviously someone brought with them a large amount of Haplogroup 3 into the population. The following gives some suggested origins of Pathans and other Pakistani groups, also suggesting no Jewish origin for the Pathans/Kalash, though they also suggest no Greek origin.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=447589 - http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=44 7589  

However, they also say this is based on haplotype analysis of the Greek population and Alexander was Macedonian? Anyway, the Maced. entered Pakistan in about 400 BC or somewhere there, and this was later followed by the Scythians, so clearly they influenced the genetic make up of Pathans. However, the Kalash werent very much affected if this is true.

You have a problem with kids on this forum too it seems  

N who R/Were the "Scythians".

"It is reasonably certain that at the beginning of the second millennium BCE, the speakers of the Proto-Indo-Iranian language moved from Ukraine to the southeast. From an archaeological point of view, their migration is attested in the change from the Yamnaya culture into the Andronovo culture.

The distribution of HG 3 in Iran shows marked differences between western and eastern provinces (southwestern Caspian [3%] vs. eastern provinces [31%]) ( http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n2/002418/002418.text.html#fg1 - fig. 1B ), with a decreasing-frequency cline towards India (Pakistan [32%], northern India [26%]). When the very low frequencies of HG 3 in the Middle East (Hammer et al. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n2/002418/002418.text.html#rf10 - 2000 ) are taken into account, the frequency pattern of HG 3 in southwestern Asia ( http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n2/002418/002418.text.html#tb1 - table 1 ) supports the idea that Indo-European speakers spread from Central Asia into modern Iran via an eastern-Caspian route, as well as into India.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n2/002418/002418.html?erFrom=2578114154671049651Guest - http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n2/0 02418/002418.html?erFrom=2578114154671049651Guest  

Suggesting HG3 went from Afghanistan (Pathan branch), West to Iran (Iranian branch), and also East to Pakistan (Punjab) and India (Indian branch).

The Scythians were a proto-Turkic people residing in central Asia, also known as the Sakas, They contributed a large amount to the Slavic genepool of eastern Europe and pakistan/afghan and N/india. Vast hordes of these "barbarians" poured into the indus valley in the 1st cent. Ad, swamping the previous inhabitants in terms of numbers. Indeed, Pakistan and areas like Rajestan/gujerat are considered the most Scythian areas in the world. This may be seen in the genetic map above if Hg3 is a scythian marker. Perhaps genetically, these areas should more properly be considered turkic rather then indoid, if there is a difference between the two in the first place. Vast tribes like Gujars(khazars) are almost pure Turkic.

While a a general rule, I would agree with Maju and Cvalli-Sforza hypothesis that pre-existing populations settled in pre-history are little changed by small numbers of subsequent invaders(eg arabs in Sind), this is not case in areas where invaders were the first settlers. The area of pakistan known as punjab was a sparsely populated, thickly forested area at the time of Alexanders invasion. From this time on the Greeks founded numerous city colonies in the area (beucephalus, alexandria(uch sharif near lahore, taxila,Sialkot etc.). They even built city colonies in places with large preexisting populations like egypt (alexandria). Furthermore, unlike most other parts of the world, Hindu caste rigidity prevented large scale intermixing with the "Mlecchas". The Arab presence in southern Spain can still be detected in small amounts in the genetic background despite ethnic clensing policies of the Spanish. There are even clusters in the spanish mountains with a large moorish genotype(I forget the name of this community). While undeniably the Greek genepool has been diluted down to small amounts in Pathans etc., it may still be detectable in areas where there were significant Greek colonies, such as the areas around Taxilla and Sialkot,punjab in specific tribal subsections. This is an intriguing possibility for keen history enthusiasts. Ofcourse the difficulty is that both Scythian(majority pakistan I.E) and greek I.E share genetic I.E precursors, and so differentiating the two can be difficult. Similar case with Romans in Britain Perhaps enhanced genetic analysis techniques in the future will be more revealing.

Saka spoke Indo-European languages, and languages related to Avestan.  Sialkot was the ancient Sakala/Sagala, not a Greek colony, but Indo-Scythian.

Unquestionably they spoke an I.E language, however that does not exclude them from being genetic precursors to what were later called the central asian Turkic nations. You are confusing linguistic and genetic arguments. The scythian descendents in pakistan today speak indian languages and pashtuns an iranian language. However both have common precursors an a broad sense. Ofcourse there would have been a large I.E. element in those scythians but I believe this is a a central turkic trait. Those epthalite huns that invaded 5th cent.ad( also called white huns) were very caucasoid and iranic looking. So were those huns iranic or turkic. I think pashtuns are more turkic then iranian, it doesnt make pashtuns mongals necessarely.

Sialkot has a very ancient history going back to founding by raja sal of mahabarata fame. but was destroyed several times in history. at one time under House of Euthydemus and Menander, it was without question the epicenter of greek life in the subcontinent. However Alexanders biographers make no mention of a city on the eastern banks of chenab/hyphasis and yet they passed close to the area. 200 years later it was epicenter of indo-greek life. Later the sakas made it their capital as sakala and after them the huns capital under Mahirakula(famous for throwing elephants of cliffs for sport, nice!?). Who made this urban centre so important that its stayed for almost a thousand years. We can trace it back to the indo-greeks and no further.

And even if it was founded by someone else, there was a large greek presence/colony/settlement there