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US signs missile defense deal with Poland.
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: US signs missile defense deal with Poland.
    Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 18:01
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Temujin


what a question. Germany and Poland are friends now in the first place and co-operate.
 
But the logic was that once yet unknown Russian crazy dictator will attack Poland. How about defence from crazy German dictator? I smell hypocrisy here.

How about Medjedjev or Putin? Both are Russian, crazy and dictators... Wink
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 18:20
Originally posted by Roberts

...but Russians didn't.
 
They did learn quite a lot from 70 years of "kommunism".
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 18:25
Originally posted by rider

How about Medjedjev or Putin? Both are Russian, crazy and dictators... Wink

 
Are they? I would call them wrong people in a wrong place rather than dictators. Besides, your statement conradicts itself -- how could you imagine two crazy dictators ruling the same country.
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Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 18:29
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Roberts

...but Russians didn't.
 
They did learn quite a lot from 70 years of "kommunism".

Agree, one of the reasons why Baltic states took the chance and got independence again, is that the same Russians became disgruntled with the failure of communism and grave economic situation in SU and destroyed the state from inside. But it is sad to see Russia again taking one party authoritarian system. If the "united Russia" party stays in power for a very long time, we might as well see the replay of the last days of SU (not territorially wise, but politically).
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 18:40
I think the situation is like a pendulum. After authoritarian regime you had "democracy" which looked more lake anarchy. Putin phenomenon is a result of the opposite movement of the pendulum but it never reached the previous maximum.  Now, apparently, pendulum moves back to "democratical half" with Medvedev increasing his power. The thing is that antirussian hysteria might shift the pendulum back. I am not sure I explained well the allegory...

Edited by Anton - 22-Aug-2008 at 18:41
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2008 at 21:49
I've read the deal we concluded with americans and I must say that after so long negotiations our goverment have won whole shit. We get no money, Patriot system is not written into the deal, American gurantees are only protecting us against missile attack.
Though it was very funny watching our prime minister and president giving malices to each other. One polish tv made even small video about it.
I liked best when our prime minister Tusk asked Kaczynski ( who doesn't know English at all ) to welcome Condoliza Rice and say few words in EnglishLOL.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2008 at 00:59
Originally posted by Anton

The equilibrium is at present but if USA manage to create effective missile defence system Russia will turn out to be at Iraq level in comparison to USA. Is it that tough to understand? Those who do not understand this "cold war is over for Russians but not for us" demagogy.

the equilibrium has already been destroyed by the end of the Cold War, the missile shield will just underline and consolidate that. those ex-Warsaw pact countries that now rally under the NATO banner are the victory prize, the booty of the Cold War for the US. i take it you assume the US wants to continue the Cold War while in fact it is Russia that apparently wants to resume it. as i can see with this missile shield another arms race has begun that Russia can't hope to win anyways. Russia would not be the first great power to fall from empire to insignificance over such issues. hello Austria!


Edited by Temujin - 23-Aug-2008 at 01:00
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2008 at 01:01
Originally posted by Anton

how could you imagine two crazy dictators ruling the same country.


Stalin - Kalinin comes to mind.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2008 at 01:03
Originally posted by Anton

I think the situation is like a pendulum. After authoritarian regime you had "democracy" which looked more lake anarchy. Putin phenomenon is a result of the opposite movement of the pendulum but it never reached the previous maximum.  Now, apparently, pendulum moves back to "democratical half" with Medvedev increasing his power. The thing is that antirussian hysteria might shift the pendulum back. I am not sure I explained well the allegory...


that sounds like Russia is an unstable country. unstable countries are a danger, to themselves and their neighbours.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2008 at 05:21

Temujin; Russia has a lot of cash lots, something US dose not these days.

 

Now imagine if they and their buds the Chinese decide to dump all those greebacks they hold................
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Posts: 1042 		  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2008 at 06:49
Originally posted by Roberts

Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Roberts

...but Russians didn't.
 
They did learn quite a lot from 70 years of "kommunism".

Agree, one of the reasons why Baltic states took the chance and got independence again, is that the same Russians became disgruntled with the failure of communism and grave economic situation in SU and destroyed the state from inside. But it is sad to see Russia again taking one party authoritarian system. If the "united Russia" party stays in power for a very long time, we might as well see the replay of the last days of SU (not territorially wise, but politically).
 
So would you say that this new regime is even more dangerous than the old one?
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2008 at 22:29
Originally posted by Temujin

the equilibrium has already been destroyed by the end of the Cold War, the missile shield will just underline and consolidate that.
The equilibrium wasn't destroyed as Russia has as many neclear weapons as Soviet Union did. I repeate again it is equilibrium in strategic nuclear weapon not geopolitical victories/looses.
 
 those ex-Warsaw pact countries that now rally under the NATO banner are the victory prize, the booty of the Cold War for the US.
OK, but this victory is temporal and lasted as long as low oil prices.
 
i take it you assume the US wants to continue the Cold War while in fact it is Russia that apparently wants to resume it.
Not only me but many other political analysts think in similar manner. Not only Russian and pro-Russian ones.
 
as i can see with this missile shield another arms race has begun that Russia can't hope to win anyways. Russia would not be the first great power to fall from empire to insignificance over such issues. hello Austria!
You underestimate Russian size and geopolitical influence. Actually many analysts in western press start to speak about decline (relative!) of USA and rise of Russia and China (and possibly some others like India and Brazyl in the future). So actually, so far I do not see Austrian destiny for Russia. 
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2008 at 22:32
Originally posted by Temujin


that sounds like Russia is an unstable country. unstable countries are a danger, to themselves and their neighbours.
 
This sound like normal trends from left to right and back.  
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2008 at 19:32
Originally posted by Sparten

Temujin; Russia has a lot of cash lots, something US dose not these days.

 

Now imagine if they and their buds the Chinese decide to dump all those greebacks they hold................



this is funny because the "cash" Russia has comes from the West (europe) and same goes for China which prides itself with western achievements and money. i ask you who really has the money? Wink

oh yeah and BTW, why does everyone think Russia and China are so good friends?


Edited by Temujin - 24-Aug-2008 at 19:44
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2008 at 19:43
Originally posted by Anton

The equilibrium wasn't destroyed as Russia has as many neclear weapons as Soviet Union did. I repeate again it is equilibrium in strategic nuclear weapon not geopolitical victories/looses.


this has nothing to do with nukes alone but with the ability of global influence and ability for intervention, something Russia lost almost totally (Serbia, Afghanistan, just to mention the closest). i already said you number of nukes is pointless because even one nuke alone is thread enough so considder France in your neighbourhood.
 
OK, but this victory is temporal and lasted as long as low oil prices.


thats what you think, Europe (west AND east) has descided for the US not because of "oil prices". LOL

Not only me but many other political analysts think in similar manner. Not only Russian and pro-Russian ones.


yeah, the anti-american ones as well. see above why i am right.
 
You underestimate Russian size and geopolitical influence. Actually many analysts in western press start to speak about decline (relative!) of USA and rise of Russia and China (and possibly some others like India and Brazyl in the future). So actually, so far I do not see Austrian destiny for Russia. 


there is no decline of the US, actually since the fall of the Soviet Union it is globally pretty much without competition except for China, or why do you think the "Axis of Evil" member Northkorea does no longer appear in the headlines? US can't intervene in the sphere of China but it can and does in the sphere of Russia, look at Baltics, Poland, Ukraine (partially), Georgia (eventually).
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2008 at 21:47
Originally posted by Temujin


this has nothing to do with nukes alone but with the ability of global influence and ability for intervention, something Russia lost almost totally (Serbia, Afghanistan, just to mention the closest). i already said you number of nukes is pointless because even one nuke alone is thread enough so considder France in your neighbourhood.
No reason to discuss the issue anymore. Either you don't understand what I mena or I don't.
 
 
 

thats what you think, Europe (west AND east) has descided for the US not because of "oil prices". LOL

You better be carefull what you read. I mean is that major reason of SU system collaps was economical. The main reason of returning of Russia as geopolitical power is economical again. In both cases it was changes in resource prices. Besides, recent reaction of EU on the Georgian issue is not something what USA wouldd expect.
 
 

yeah, the anti-american ones as well. see above why i am right. 
I do not understand how could people who worked in American government be anti-american. See my recent citation.
 

 


there is no decline of the US, actually since the fall of the Soviet Union it is globally pretty much without competition except for China, or why do you think the "Axis of Evil" member Northkorea does no longer appear in the headlines?

 
This is what I mean -- relative decline. USA is not the only "superpower" anymore.
 
US can't intervene in the sphere of China but it can and does in the sphere of Russia, look at Baltics, Poland, Ukraine (partially), Georgia (eventually).
Georgia's good example. Good example of what I said -- there are areas where Russia appears showed herself to be geopolitically stronger than US. US simply has no ways of influencing Russia on this question.
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Posts: 1042 		  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2008 at 07:36
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Sparten

Temujin; Russia has a lot of cash lots, something US dose not these days.

 

Now imagine if they and their buds the Chinese decide to dump all those greebacks they hold................



this is funny because the "cash" Russia has comes from the West (europe) and same goes for China which prides itself with western achievements and money. i ask you who really has the money? Wink

oh yeah and BTW, why does everyone think Russia and China are so good friends?
 
Yes, a very common misconception indeed. Similar to people thinking that China and North Korea are good friends, which definately isnt the case.
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2008 at 13:49
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Sparten

Temujin; Russia has a lot of cash lots, something US dose not these days.

 

Now imagine if they and their buds the Chinese decide to dump all those greebacks they hold................



this is funny because the "cash" Russia has comes from the West (europe) and same goes for China which prides itself with western achievements and money. i ask you who really has the money? Wink

right now the Russians, the 'friendly' middle eastern petro-economies and the Chinese. They hold most of the US debt (treasuries) right now and with that the power to make the greenback worth less than it already is. They don't because it would cause economic chaos, but they have that choice. not the other way around. The question should be, who's paying a mortage to who? 

right now its the I.O.USAWink



Edited by Leonidas - 25-Aug-2008 at 13:51
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2008 at 19:28
Originally posted by Anton

No reason to discuss the issue anymore. Either you don't understand what I mena or I don't.


i assume the latter Cheers
 
 
 
You better be carefull what you read. I mean is that major reason of SU system collaps was economical. The main reason of returning of Russia as geopolitical power is economical again. In both cases it was changes in resource prices. Besides, recent reaction of EU on the Georgian issue is not something what USA wouldd expect.


economy was only one of the reasons for the SU collapse but it was not the main reason why Poland etc joined NATO.
 
 


I do not understand how could people who worked in American government be anti-american. See my recent citation.


Berezovksy....? Big%20smile

 


This is what I mean -- relative decline. USA is not the only "superpower" anymore.


this is not an evidence of decline as this barrier has already been established at the very beginnign of the Cold War and hasn't changed since. contrary to the examples i gave (afghanistan, Serbia), so if anything, the US has not declined but the contrary occured.
 

Georgia's good example. Good example of what I said -- there are areas where Russia appears showed herself to be geopolitically stronger than US. US simply has no ways of influencing Russia on this question.


as i said: eventually...
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2008 at 19:29
Originally posted by Penelope

 
Yes, a very common misconception indeed. Similar to people thinking that China and North Korea are good friends, which definately isnt the case.


yeah i know, thats not what i implied. i mean Goergia and Russia obviously aren't good friend either. however China feels comfort with NK at its borders and not the US.
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