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Obsidian swords

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  Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Obsidian swords
    Posted: 12-May-2007 at 11:47
The first time I tried to knap obsidian was at a workshop last month. I was using a small cobble hammerstone to break off a simple flake and piece of shatter exploded into my thumb.
 
So, I was the first and only one to draw blood in the class and I accomplished this with my very first attempt...Big%20smile
 
To reiterate what Aelfgifu said about the their wounds, my tiny thumb puncture bled for what seemed like hours (I was constantly sucking on it so I wouldn't get blood all over my borrowed tools) and it throbbed for few days afterward.
 
Paul, I am very impressed with your craftsmanship. Those blades are awesome! Maybe with another 10 to 20 years of practice I could knap something close to it... Wink
The sharpest spoon in the drawer.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 12:39
It took me about 2 years to get up to the standard I am now and I been treading water ever since.
 
I'd love to know how you gt up to this standard.
 
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
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  Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2007 at 13:35
The professor I had flintknapped for decades and claims he still has much to learn.
 
Hopefully (depending on many circumstances), I will go to a one week workshop in Illinois this summer. I was only told about it yesterday so I don't know much about it yet...
 
I think it's one with Tim Dillard:
 


Edited by Goban - 12-May-2007 at 13:36
The sharpest spoon in the drawer.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2007 at 02:58
If you want to cut off someone's head or limb, a metal sword is your tool of choice. But if your intent is to hack and maim, disable and capture, the obsidian sword is best.  Properly napped, a piece of obsidian can be sharper than any steel edge, a fact used recently in certain delicate surgeries. But in small pieces. Obsidian has a few drawbacks. It has to be re-napped to be sharpened, which usually means that piece now has to be put to a different use because it is smaller. It cant be used in long pieces because of it's inflexible, brittle nature. But it's a whole lot better than a wooden club.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2007 at 06:16
Originally posted by Goban

 
Hopefully (depending on many circumstances), I will go to a one week workshop in Illinois this summer. I was only told about it yesterday so I don't know much about it yet...
 
 
That is so cool... Big%20smile I am thinking of doing a forging workshop this summer...

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 02:35
Originally posted by Athanasios

Were these swords that effective? I doubt ifthis stone was dangerous, even if it was sharpened... I have the impression that aztecs wereused tomake a lot of time to chop a pig back then...


Probably not, no. Obsidian is the sharpest cutting edge known to mankind, synthetic or natural - it is much sharper than even precision-manufactured surgical scalpels. Diaz, one of Cortes' companions, wrote that he witnessed a warrior with a maquahuitl sever the head of a horse in a single blow - that's very impressive for any weapon! As far as we know for sure, this weapon did cause massive trauma with a succesful blow, both due to the sharpness of the blades and also because of their unusual arrangement, which likely caused a very large and rough tearing sort of wound, rather than a clean cut.

But the maquahuitl has serious flaws. The weapon is very fragile and doesn't last long in combat - obsidian is brittle and shatters easily, and the blades are inset in wood so could come loose. Contact with wood, bone or metal would often destroy the blades. It's also an unusual "sword" in the way the blades are arranged at the edges and not nearly as versatile as a metal blade. Parrying could also destroy the blades, and thrusting was impossible (slashing only). Against steel armour - or even steel swords wielded by unarmoured men - it would be a very poor weapon. Against opponents with light armour who had no steel arms, it would be highly effective - in other words, eminently suited to pre-contact warfare.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 09:26
Obsidian Urban Legends, I just love them.Big%20smile
 
Obsidian can be very sharp, but knapping isn't a precise science and any edge will be varied quality along its length, usually with the odd small section maybe sharper than surgical steel but only that small part next to a larger blunter part.
 
Sharp is an overated quality in a sword, most veteran swordsmen deliberately kept their swords blunt. A blunt sword cuts as well as a sharp one, cutting effectiveness coming more from the blade geometry, design and cutting technique. Continually sharpening a blade wears the edge down and weakens it. Better to spend 30 minute perfecting your swing each night than honing the blade with a grindstone (or knap stone)
 
Maquahuiltl weren't made of obsidian. It was a favoured material because of the relative ease of working it compared to other knappable material, however flint and chert maquahuitl were equally common, probably dacite too.
 
The maquahuitl is quite strong. Flint ones stronger than steel. Obsidian ones are likely to damage against steel and chip against hard woods, occaisionally a chunk could be taken off, but completely shattering is difficult. Blunting of the fine edge will be the main problem.
 
Meso-American glue is very strong, better than superglue, there's little chance of a blade falling out.
 
Parrying swords blade to blade is a myth of hollywood, all swordsmen are taught to parry with the flat. Not to say in the heat of battle or with a novice swordsman an accidental blade to blade parry won't happen. In those circumstances a Maquahuitl will probably hold up better than a steel sword. A blade may be damaged but the wooden frame and the rest of the blades find. A steel sword may simply snap in half.
 
There are designs of maquahuitl with obsidian tips that could thrust.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Paul - 25-Jun-2007 at 09:40
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 09:44
Fascinating. Was South America the only place to use obsidian in weapons or were there others?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 11:05
South America? You mean Mesoamerica.
In Peru, for instance, the bronze axe was in common use before contact.
In the jungles the curare darts and the cerbatana (bow pipe) where a lot more deadly than an obsidiane sword.
In Souther South Americas, the balls (boleadoras) could push down a rider with easy, for instance.
 
Yes, obsidiane swords are a produce of Mesoamerica, not South America.
 
Pinguin
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:48
Thankyyou for your reply pinqin. Mesoamerican civilization is fascinating for the way in which it developed apart from the rest of the world for such a long time.  By Mesoamerica do you mean the civilizations that flourished in the land mass commonly called South America?  
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 19:52
Originally posted by elenos

Thankyyou for your reply pinqin. Mesoamerican civilization is fascinating for the way in which it developed apart from the rest of the world for such a long time. By Mesoamerica do you mean the civilizations that flourished in the land mass commonly called South America?


No, that is not Mesoamerica.

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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 20:28
Thanks edgewaters, good job, again. You have answered my question completely. Until now I was not aware a region called Mezoamerica existed, geography has has never been my strong suit. The region is not in the South American continent but as shown is the connecting land bridge between two continents.


Edited by elenos - 25-Jun-2007 at 20:32
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