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Arthur-Robin 
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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 Topic: Star of BethlehemPosted: 03-Apr-2018 at 08:27 |
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"In the 32nd year of Herod and the 309th year of Alexander, was born our Lord the Messiah.... Prior to that year, the Romans had sent the judge (legate) Cyrinus to count the population subject to tax. .... The learned Greek Longinus introduces this event in the 3rd part of his book.... His mother Mary was 13 years old; the duration of her whole life was 51 years, she lived 6 years after the Ascension of Our Lord Christ. It was the 44th year of Augustus Caesar. 2 years after his birth, he was transported to Egypt at night when the Magi came to him, and he stayed in Egypt; He was then aged 4.... Then Herod died, having lived in his city 70 years, he reigned 34, in the year 44 of Caesar. .... After the death of Herod, Archelaus succeeded him in the year 45 of Augustus Caesar in the year 312 of Alexander; and Archelaus ruled for 9 years. ... Herod as successor who reigned 28 years. Augustus lived 75 years and died after having reigned for 56 years.... Tiberius Caesar reigned for 23 years and lived 78 years. The 1st year of his reign, there was a great earthquake, and several cities were knocked down and many men and animals killed. In the year 7 of his reign, Herod built a city and called it Tabariye (Tiberias).... In the year 14 the procurator Pilate was sent to the Jews (in Judaea). In the year 15 (of Tiberius), Our Lord Christ ... was baptized by John.... He had returned ... our Lord Christ ... was 30 years old.... In the year 19 of Tiberius Caesar, and in the year 342 of Alexander, Our Lord Christ was crucified .... The philosophers in their books tell that the days of the Passion of Christ, ... in the volume ... kings, that, during the reign of Caesar, the sun was darkened, and it became night at the 9th hour and the stars appeared: there was a strong earthquake at Nicaea and in all the surrounding cities.... The philosopher Ursinus says in the 5th chapter of his book ...: "We were in great grief and long anguish. The sun was darkened and the earth shook.... .... There were between Hannan and Caiphas less than 4 years, according to Eusebius.... In the year 17 of Tiberius Caesar, and in the year 341 of Alexander, 1 year before the crucifixion of our Lord the Christ ... Abgar the Black, king of Edessa, sent messengers to some towns.... Cephas ... was bishop for 25 years, until the 13th year of Nero...." Agapius, Universal History (1909) part 2. pp.1-287. [Translated by Alexander Vasiliev] The 2nd Part Of The History Of Mahboub, Son Of Constantine, Of Mebidj [Carchemish/Jerablus], Bishop Of The City Od Menbidj. |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Posted: 10-Mar-2018 at 02:37 |
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There is certainly something amiss with the belief that early Christian writers all agreed on when Jesus was born.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 09-Mar-2018 at 21:53 |
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We will just have to agree to disagree on this point. You seem to be sure that Jesus was born in reign of Archealus as supposedly said/implied by Luke (with partial support of Josephus) in contrast to Matthew, while i am positive that both Matthew and Luke say/imply that Jesus was born during reign of Herod the King/Great before Archelaus.
I am fairly confient that he was born between 12-3 bc, and crucified between 26-36 ad, but i haven't been able to yet solve this 9/10/11 years uncertainty. Possibly the bible skip code might confirm the nature of the Star of Bethlehem, but i don't have any software or other resources to do code search in Greek/Hebrew/English NT & OT texts, and it might be cheating instead of solving it our self. In my post on the Star being Halleys i did suggest that Daniels 70 weeks was from Daniel to destruction of Jerusalem,with the last week being 12 bc to 66 ad two Halley's comets (generations?). (Inversing 70 x 7 yrs to 7 x 70 yrs.) The middle of the week would be ca 27 ad. Edited by Arthur-Robin - 09-Mar-2018 at 22:06 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Posted: 09-Mar-2018 at 10:00 |
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150 years before Justion wrote this is c.5-7 AD Justin in the same work mentions Jesus' birth in Bethlehem; "Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judæa." Since Cyrenius was the first procurator of Judea, then the taxation occurred after Herod Archelaus had been deposed in 6 AD. This is exactly what Josephus says, and what the Gospel of Luke indicates. Edited by .Sidney - 09-Mar-2018 at 10:01 |
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Posted: 09-Mar-2018 at 09:15 |
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Clement's calculations are based on an attempt to show that the prophecy in Daniel - the "seventy weeks" - was fulfilled by the fall of Jerusalem by Vespasian. As Clement interpretes it thus; "In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said." Clement's dating of Jesus is therefore not from an independent source (an official record, or handed down memory), but relies on his interpretation of when Jesus must have been born based on how Clement is working out the prophecy. This is why a number of his other dates are inaccurate - he is fitting them into a created time-frame, rather than reflecting an historical one. Clement's prophecy interpretation says Jesus was born 'x' number of years since Daniel's vision, which is worked out as being the 28th year of Augustus. Thus the 28th year of Augustus must be the year Jesus was born, because that fits the prophecy. "Accordingly, showing, (as we have done,) both the number of the years, and the time of the lx two and an half fulfilled hebdomads, on completion of which, (we have shown) that Christ has come, that is, has been born," "Vespasian, in the first year of his empire, subdues the Jews in war; and there are made lii years, vi months. For he reigned xi years. And thus, in the day of their storming, the Jews fulfilled the lxx hebdomads predicted in Daniel." [Answer to the Jews, Ch.8] Tertullian agrees with Clement on the year of Jesus' birth [2 BC] (based as they both are on the prophecy time-frame); "in the forty-first year of the empire of Augustus, when he has been reigning for xx and viii years after the death of Cleopatra, the Christ is born." But, as with Clement, Tertullian has errors created by his need to make the dates fit the prophecy, rather than him relying on some independent date for Jesus' birth. For instance, he claims the period between Christ's birth to the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD) was 52 years. Because this date was worked out using Biblical prophecy, it became the 'official version' of when Jesus was born (other Christian writers from the same period and after follow Clement and Tertullian). But writers before them, or who were outside the dominant Christian faith (Justin Martyr, Josephus, Celsus, the Mandaens, Luke), did not rely on the prophecy, and gave a different indication as to Jesus' birth date.
Edited by .Sidney - 09-Mar-2018 at 10:19 |
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 09-Mar-2018 at 02:05 |
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Thanks Sidney this is really great info. I have to look into this info in next days before i can offer any comments. Some figures happen to be similar to ones i have had come up in the previous posts thinkings but i have to see if i can remember them or if/where i noted them to see if they may agree. Just for now:
Luke 1 also says Herod the king. So Matthew and Luke both agree that Jesus/John was conceived/born in Herod the king's reign. Russian Josephus or Mandean text seems to says John Baptist spoke to Archelaus at beginning of his ministry (ca 22 y.o. in Mandean), which if it was genuine/reliable would imply he must have been born before Archelaus 10 yrs reign, though Simon mentioned in Josephus might possibly link with Simon in Luke. The 28th year could be of Herod (in Josephus just before that decree of Augustus & Censorinus that i mentioned seemed similar to Lukes census). Cyrenius is the 37th yr of Augustus in Josephus, which would put 28th year about 9 years before to about 4 bc, and confirms Jesus born before Archelaus. Josephus has Augustus with 57 yrs (14 yrs with Antony) and died at 77 yrs old. |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Posted: 08-Mar-2018 at 18:14 |
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About 50 years after Justin wrote, Clement of Alexandria (c.200 AD) in his "Stromata" dates Jesus' birth thus; "And our Lord was born in the twenty-eighth year, when first the census was ordered to be taken in the reign of Augustus."
Clement elsewhere says; "[From] the victory of Augustus, when Antony killed himself at Alexandria...when Augustus was made consul for the fourth time...to the games which Domitian instituted at Rome, are a hundred and fourteen years; and from the first games to the death of Commodus, a hundred and eleven years."
"Accordingly, in fifteen years of Tiberius and fifteen years of Augustus; so were completed the thirty years till the time He [Jesus] suffered." (Stromata Ch.21) [Clement is claiming that Christ lived 15 years under Tiberius and fifteen years under Augustus. Since Augustus died in 14 AD, then Jesus was born in 1 BC and died in 29 AD] "And from the time that He [Jesus] suffered till the destruction of Jerusalem are forty-two years and three months; and from the destruction of Jerusalem to the death of Commodus, a hundred and twenty-eight years, ten months, and three days."
"From the birth of Christ, therefore, to the death of Commodus are, in all, a hundred and ninety-four years, one month, thirteen days." [Commodus died Dec 192 AD, so 194 years, 1 month and 13 days beforehand would be Nov 3 BC. But previously Clement computed 171 years from the death of Christ to Commodus. If the birth of Christ was 194 years before the death of Commodus, then Jesus was 23 when he died. If the Passion was in 21 AD - as Clement has above - then Jesus was born 3/2 BC. Oddly, if the Passion was 28 AD - as Clement also has - then Jesus was born in 5 AD. But we know that Clement is out on his computations] "And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus, and in the twenty-fifth day of Pachon"..."others say that He was born on the twenty-fourth or twenty-fifth of Pharmuthi."
Edited by .Sidney - 08-Mar-2018 at 19:31 |
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Posted: 08-Mar-2018 at 17:19 |
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The 2nd Century Christian, Justin Martyr, in his "First Apology" - dated to 155-157 AD - states that;
"we say that Christ was born one hundred and fifty years ago under Cyrenius," (First Apology, 1:68).
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Posted: 08-Mar-2018 at 06:39 |
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There is a passage that supports my view taken from Origen's "Against Celsus" written in 248, in opposition to the writings of the 2nd Century pagan philosopher, Celsus. Origen quotes from Celsus;
Chaldeans are spoken of by Jesus as having been induced to come to him at his birth, and to worship him while yet an infant as a God, and to have made this known to Herod the tetrarch; and that the latter sent and slew all the infants that had been born about the same time, thinking that in this way he would ensure his death among the others; and that he was led to do this through fear that, if Jesus lived to a sufficient age, he would obtain the throne. Origen objects to this passage because Celsus has 'Chaldeans' whereas the Gospel has 'Magi'. He has no other criticism. He completely passes over the reference to "Herod the tetrarch", showing that he has no objection to it. But "Herod the tetrarch cannot be Herod the Great, since the tetrarchy didn't exist until after he died and his kingdom was divided between his sons. A 2nd Century pagan author wrote that Jesus was born in the reign of Herod's son, and a 3rd Century Christian author did not object to it.
Edited by .Sidney - 08-Mar-2018 at 06:40 |
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Posted: 06-Mar-2018 at 21:31 |
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But I accept that we will just have to disagree over what we are seeing with our own eyes. I'm still looking for other early sources that could help date Jesus' birth.
Edited by .Sidney - 06-Mar-2018 at 21:34 |
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 06-Mar-2018 at 01:17 |
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Yes of course they were quotes from Luke (and/or Matthew), i give them again to confirm my reasons for that Jesus was 6 months younger (or not more than 9 months because they were seemingly implied to be in wombs at same time).
001:015 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 001:024 After these days Elizabeth, his wife, conceived, and she hid herself five months, saying, 001:026 Now in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 001:031 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name 'Jesus.' 001:036 Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 001:041 It happened, when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, that the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 001:042 She called out with a loud voice, and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 001:043 Why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 001:044 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came into my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy! 001:045 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of the things which have been spoken to her from the Lord!" 001:056 Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her house. 002:021 When eight days were fulfilled for the circumcision of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb. True the bible doesn't specifically overtly directly say that the baby was in the womb, but it also does not definitely say what you suggest either, and the text does seem to me to pretty well imply that it was. I am not just assuming based on traditional/scholarly/self beliefs of a.d. times. Either John leaped at baby Jesus in womb, or John leaped at Mary because of her faith (or holy spirit? The catholic idea of Mary being specially great herself is not true in my biblical-based opinion.) Personally i don't see makes much likely sense for John just to leap at Mary's faith but makes more biblical sense that he leaped at baby Jesus which also might be confirmed in that he later also recognised Jesus when he was present at baptisms as seen in these gospel verses: 001:029 The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 001:030 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who is preferred before me, for he was before me.' 001:031 I didn't know him, but for this reason I came baptizing in water: that he would be revealed to Israel." 001:035 Again, the next day, John was standing with two of his disciples, 001:036 and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!" Yes but it doesn't say any time period. Will (English translation) could be 1 minute or 1 year or 100 years. Edited by Arthur-Robin - 07-Mar-2018 at 00:37 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Posted: 05-Mar-2018 at 16:55 |
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I assume you are quoting the Gospel of Luke? Could you point out where I have failed to see references to Jesus being in Mary's womb? You are still reading the verses with the assumptions of past commentators (those "European sources" you mention?). I'm not saying the idea is impossible, but I am saying that the idea comes from assumptions. It isn't actually in the Gospel.
Edited by .Sidney - 05-Mar-2018 at 17:00 |
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 04-Mar-2018 at 01:36 |
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001:024 After these days Elizabeth, his wife, conceived, and she hid herself five months, saying, 001:026 Now in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 001:036 Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. 001:056 Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her house.
001:015 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine nor strong drink. He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 001:031 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name 'Jesus.' 001:041 It happened, when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, that the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 001:042 She called out with a loud voice, and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 001:043 Why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 001:044 For behold, when the voice of your greeting came into my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy! 001:045 Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of the things which have been spoken to her from the Lord!" 002:021 When eight days were fulfilled for the circumcision of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb. I do not agree that the baby John only leaped at Mary and not at baby Jesus in womb, though i agree that your opinion is alternatively possible. John and Jesus seemingly like twins in some European sources? See also the Jewish calendar in first post on first page.
I strongly object to you half-falsely/-untruly claiming i was/am "mistaken". These are the sorts of subtle wrongs i don't like (always subtle negatives (and nothings), and never any positives). Anyone who has followed my net/web posts of last 4-11 years knows i think for myself far more than most people and experts. Thanks for the interesting Mandean text info. The "star flew down" might confirm a comet not a conjunction. The 22 yrs is interesting but all the other evidences still suggests 12-3 bc for his birth and/or star and/or census, and i don't see any enough evidences for a 6/7 ad date. 15th of Tiberius has a 4 or so years range of possible date. I consider the biblical as more reliable than the Mandean (though i always do consider all sources as objectively as possible). Edited by Arthur-Robin - 04-Mar-2018 at 01:52 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Posted: 03-Mar-2018 at 23:09 |
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The Mandean texts are quite interesting. http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/gnostic_john_baptist/index.htm In The Portent's At John's Birth, the high priest of Jerusalem has a vision; "When I lay there, I slept not and rested not, and sleep came not to me by night. I slept not and rested not, [and I beheld] that a star appeared and stood over Enishbai [Elizabeth]. Fire burned in Abā Sābā [Old Father] Zakhriā" and "A star flew down into JudÊa, a star flew down into Jerusalem." The other priest's cannot interpret it, so they turn to the soothsayer Lilyukh; Lilyukh writes unto them in the letter and says to them: "The star, that came and stood over Enishbai: A child will be planted out of the height from above; he comes and will be given unto Enishbai. The fire, that burned in Old Father Zakhriā: Yōhānā [John] will be born in Jerusalem." This "star" fortells the birth of John the Baptist (just as Matthew's Star foretold Jesus). We are given some priest's name; Elizar [Eleazer] "head of all the priests" Yaqif [Jacob] "the priest" Beni-Amin [Benjamin] Shilai Shalbai Tab Yōmīn Zakhria [Zachariah, the father of John] Anosh [Enoch] "the treasure" Lilyukh [maybe not a priest] Battai [possibly 3 people with same name; he/they is not listed as a priest, but is a messenger when John starts his ministry] I have noticed that Elizar could be Eleazar ben Boethus, who was priest in 4 BC. However, if it is, then it needs to be noted that he was the first High Priest appointed by Herod Archelaus after Herod the Great had died. And that the pregnancy of Elizabeth is only about to happen in the above quotes, meaning John's birth is at least 9 months away, and Jesus' sometime after that. So Eleazar cannot be used to allot a time for Jesus' birth during the reign of Herod the Great, since Herod is dead before Eleazer becomes High Priest. However, the appearance of a star is noteworthy. I think the other names need to be identified to get a better idea of the time-frame. Another difficulty with identifying the priests is that not only are they alive before John was born, but they were still alive when John appeared as a prophet. Mandaen scripture reads; "Yaqif leaves the house of the people, Beni-Amin leaves the temple, Elizar, the great house, leaves the dome of the priests. The priests spake unto Yahyā in Jerusalem." And when was this ministry? The Mandaen scriptures tell us in one of John the Baptist's proclamations that when he was born the Jews wanted to kill him, so Anosh took him away and brought him up in secret in the mountains. "[There I remained] until I was two and twenty years old. I learned there the whole of my wisdom and made fully my own the whole of my discourse...and in the seventh hour of a Sunday they brought me to the Jerusalem region. Then cried a voice in JudÊa, a crying proclaimed in Jerusalem." The Mandaens say that John started his ministry at the age of 22! Which means if it was in the 15th year of Tiberius (29/30AD), then John was born in 6/7AD, So the Mandeans put a Star and the birth of John in the same time that Luke places Jesus' birth - the census of Quirinius of 6/7AD! Certainly curious, but more needs to be investigated, especially with identifying those priests.
Edited by .Sidney - 03-Mar-2018 at 23:33 |
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Posted: 03-Mar-2018 at 19:20 |
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Who told you this? This is another example of reading what we are told to read due to previous commentators. There is nothing in the Gospel narratives that says Jesus was six months older than John. Luke tells us that Elizabeth was six months pregnant when Mary was visited by Gabriel. But there is nothing in Luke that tells us that Mary got pregnant as soon as Gabriel visited her. There is nothing in Luke that says Mary was actually pregnant during any part of the nativity story of John the Baptist. We have only been told to believe it, but we don't actually see it in the text. Firstly, when Gabriel visits Mary, he present's her with a prophecy - "You will conceive," and "The Holy Spirit will come on you,"[Luke 1:31,35] - notice the future tense. There is no sense that Mary has at that very moment become pregnant. It is all yet to happen. Secondly, when Mary visits Elizabeth and John stirs in the womb, Elizabeth says "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!" [Luke 1:42] - again the future tense. Not 'are bearing' but 'will bear'. Commentators claim that it is the presence of the foetal Jesus in Mary's womb that causes John to stir, but this is not what is written, for Elizabeth says "as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy." [Luke 1:44] It is the voice and presence of Mary which causes the reaction, not the presence of Jesus in her womb. Mary has clearly not yet conceived and is not yet pregnant. Just as with the mistaken interpretation that the 15th year of Tiberius was also the 30th year of Jesus, we are here being told what to see, rather than thinking about it for ourselves. So the age of Jesus is no indication of what the age of John was (except that John was older than Jesus). And even if John were the same age as Jesus, we are not told how old John was when he started his ministry. He might have been 25, he might have been 35. There is no set age for starting a ministry. The idea that John must have been about 30 when he started his ministry is another assumption we are led into by just accepting previous commentators. Jesus might still have been near the age of John. Mary was betrothed to Joseph before Gabriel visited her, and I'm not sure how long a betrothal lasted. When Joseph came to marry her he found her pregnant (and thought to divorce her). She may have only been a few weeks pregnant at that stage. If a betrothal lasted a year, and we know she was already betrothed when Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant, then Jesus could have been about 18 months younger than John - but it does depend on how long a betrothal lasted.
Edited by .Sidney - 03-Mar-2018 at 23:27 |
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Arthur-Robin
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Posted: 03-Mar-2018 at 09:56 |
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There is a 10/11 yrs range in Jesus dates that I haven't yet been able to reduce any further.
From the new timeline below my tentative range for Jesus birth is 12-3 bc with 4 possible dates of either 12/11/10/9 or 10/9/8/7 or 7/6/5 or 5/4/3/2. And for Jesus crucifixion: 26-37 ad with possible dates of either 26 or 27 or 29 or 30 or 31/32/33 or 36/37. I still favour the Halley's comet of 12/11/9 bc for star of Bethlehem, but i may be wrong because i can't necessarily definitely resolve some seeming difficulties fitting with the later 20s-30s dates. It is possible that some secular dates are actually not correct dates, for example Pilate same 26 ad date in 1 ad based ASC as in modern 4 bc based dates. 12 bc has star and census and Quirinius and Dio Cassius. New timeline: c 87 bc 800 rebels crucified (58/55 bc Nephite Hagoth) 54 Crassus loots temple confiscating all its gold Herod the Great k of the jews 47/44/40/38/37-4/1 bc. Augustus 44/43/31/27/19 bc - ad 14 (14 yrs with Antony, Josephus, ASC) 40 Pacorus of Parthia Census Egypt 30 bc. census 28 bc (Augustus, Suetonius) Census: Gaul 27 bc 25-13 Caesarea built high priest (Simon son of) Boethus, father of wife of Herod 23-5 20 bc Sanhedrin head Hillel the Elder? temple built 15th/17th/18th yr Herod ca 21/20/19/early 17 bc temple quarry date 19 bc Saturninus consul 19 bc 17 bc comet? 15 bc Agrippa visits Jerusalem, offers hecatomb in temple Quirinius Cyrene 14 bc Quin(c)tilius 13 consul Tiberius 13 bc Census Gaul 12 bc "census of Herod 12 bc" Quirinius consul 12 bc census 12 bc 12/11 bc (Agrippa died, Dio Cassius?) 12/11/9 bc (Halley's before the death of Agrippa, Dio Cassius RH 54:29) Quirinius 12/11-2 bc (proconsul Syria, micrographic lettering coins)? Quirinius 12-1/5-3? Saturninus consul 11 bc Claudius born 10 bc Quirinius 10-7 bc Census Egypt 9 bc. eclipse 9 bc 9 bc Uranus & Saturn; census 9/8/7 bc (Censorinus, Augustus, Ancyra, Suetonius, Josephus) Saturninus 9-7/6 bc (Tertullian) Censorinus 8 bc (Josephus) Quin(c)tilius 7/6-4/3 Syria Tiberius 7 bc 7/6 bc (Jupiter & Saturn, Sippar, Kepler, Schnabel); may or may not have been 14 yearly census in 7/6 bc (not recorded)? Census Cyrene 7 bc 6 bc Uranus & Venus occultation 6 bc c 6 bc court prophecy Herod overthrown by a coming messiah * Quintilius Varus 6-3? 5 bc object/tailed-comet/nova 70 days high priest Matthias son of Theophilus 5-4 [Matthan? Matthat?] 4 bc comet with no tail ca 4 bc comet & conjunction several planets in Pisces (DSS)? * Saturninus consul 4 bc eclipse 4 bc, Simon of Peraea 4 bc Quirinius 4-1 bc Archelaus 4 bc - ad 6 Philip 4 bc - ad 34 Herod Antipas 4 bc-17-27/31/35-defeat 36 - deposed 39 Joazar bro of wife of Matthias son of Boethus 4 bc / 6 ad (Joseph son of Ellem(us) 1 day in 4 bc) [Joseph son of Heli?] Eleazar/Joazar son of Boethus 4-3 bc & ? - 6 ad Jesus son of Sic/Sie 3 bc - ? Caesarea Philipi 3 bc - ad 14 - 29/30 - 34 ad 3 bc mass oath [census] (josephus 17:41-45, pater patriae 2 bc) (3 bc conjunction of Venus & Saturn (in eastern sky) in 12 Jun?) (3 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus in Leo in 12th Aug?) * 3 bc conjunction Venus & Mercury 31 Aug? 3-2 bc conjunction(s) of Jupiter & Regulus "Saturninus 3/2 bc"? 2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus near Regulus in Leo in [West at] sunset in 17 Jun? 2 bc Venus rose to mark sceptre in Leo 18/20/24 Aug? * 2 bc Jupiter stationary 25 Dec 1 bc Jupiter & Venus in Virgo in sw [July]? eclipse 1 bc no star in 0 bc/ad 1 ad Venus rose in Aries 27 Mar? "Jesus born 42nd Augustus 1 ad" (ASC, Exiguus) Herod died 3 ad (ASC) Tiberius heir ad 4 Saturninus 4-6 ad (Tertullian) high priest Joazar bro of wife of Matthias son of Boethus 6 ad high priest Eleazar/Joazar son of Boethus ? - 6 ad census Quirinus 6/7 ad Judas/Zadok/Joazar Quirinius 6/7-11/12 ad Annas 6-15 7-26 period of peace relatively free of revolt Quin(c)tilius 8 ad consul comets 9 ad (Dio Cassius) 9 ad Vespasian born 9/10 Hillel dies; temp rise of Shammai eclipse 10 ad Herod 11 ad (ASC) Longinus 11 ad 11 ban Astrology Philip 12 ad (ASC) 12-30 Jose of Arimathea brough Jesus to Britain Tiberius ad 12/13/14/15/16-27/28/29/30-37 (ASC) c 13 ad Pandion/Bargoses to Augustus (Dio Cassius) 3rd census Augustus & Tiberius ad 13/14 (Augustus, Suetonius) Tiberius interested in astrology and nativities between 14-37 ad Lysanias 14-29/42 ad? Caesarea Philipi ad 14-29 / 30-34 ad "Great Pan is dead" 14/15-37 17 earthquake Anatolia ad 17 cross, Gwenwisa (24 kings & 33 cities document) Tiberius 18 ad Caiaphas 18-36 19 Jewish astrologers expelled from Rome Saturninus 19-21 ad (Tertullian) 20 census Tiberius 21 ad 23 ad Chinese astronomer; eclipse 26 ad Pilate/Pilatus 26-36/37 (ASC) mid-week 27 ad (Halley's, Daniel, me)? John Baptist 27/31/33/35-28/30/31/32/35-36 (Josephus, wiki, Sidney) eclipse 29 ad JC baptised 30 (ASC) Longinus 30 Robin Redbreast 30s ad. till 30 Shammai 30 martyr Stephen 30 Helena of Adiabene converts to Judaism 30-70 schism within Judaism 31 Sejanus Tiberius 31 ad 31 ad Mar 4/5 "ladder formed by all wandering stars"; 31 ad Aug 15 "Venus rose in sextans (included as part of Leo)"; 32 Philo 32 ad darkness/eclipse (Thallus/Africanus); 33 ad fri 3rd Apr "eclipse/blood-moon" (Crucifiction)? 33 ad (19 Mar-)5 Apr "Venus (& sun) rose in Pisces" (JC resurrection). crucifiction 33 (ASC) 33 financial crisis hits Rome 33/34 census "33-37/35 British evangelised" 36 calendar monument Mexico 36 ad Egyptian astronomer 37 earthquake Antioch 37-40/41 financial crisis Maximus 39 comet 39 ad 40 BVM appeared to James on bank of Ebro at Caesaraugusta in Spain before 44 James written; 44 James beheaded 44 death of Herod Agrippa 1 Herod 44 ad (ASC) 44-46 Theudas James 45/62 (ASC) famine 46 47 Thomas 49 Jews expelled from Rome 50 passover riot in Jerusalem c 50 council Jerusalem 51-52/52-53 Gallio 52 Thomas in India Benjamin/Egyptian prophet 52-58 / 55 ad? James 62/45 (ASC) before 62 James the Just; 62 James stoned ad 63/76 Jose of Arimathea to Glastonbury after 42 yrs in prison 63-107/117 St Simeon crucified 64-8 great fire of Rome 65 hypothetical Q document used by Matt & Lk Yehoshua ben Hananiah 66 ad Halley's comet 66 Jewish/Jerusalem revolt/war/destroyed 66-70-73 67 ad "Peter died" 70-200 Tannaim 70 Jamnia; Pella 72 martyrdom Thomas 79 Eucharistus/Evaristus Vesuvius/Pompey (Italy) ad 79. Simon 90 (ASC) 1st Cent CE / time-of-Jesus Wakea walk on water (NZ Maori) 90 council Jamnia; fiscus Judaicus Census Egypt 104 ad. Lukuas 115 ad? 115-7 Kitos war Bar Kochba 131/2-135/6. 136 rabbi Akiva martyred cross found 199/380 (ASC). |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Arthur-Robin
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Joined: 23-Feb-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 937 |
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Posted: 02-Mar-2018 at 21:23 |
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I am aware that the 15th year and about 30 yrs old may have a gap of unknown length. It says (in English version at least) "Jesus was also baptised" "when all the people were baptised" "in the course of those days", so i need to see the original Greek to know whether it is "after" or "when". We don't know if/what size gap there is between John start his work and Jesus start his work. Jesus was only 6 months younger than John. (It is even posisble that Jesus started his work at about 30 before baptised?) There is only one chapter between in all 4 gospels. Mark and John gospel of Jesus both begin with John Baptist. (Have to check out Mandean texts to see if any clues there.) Elijah was 3 and 1/2 years before Elisha. John says "the next day" (though i wonder if the "days" there could be years, though unlikely since it mentions "not many days" and "passover" in chapter 3). John forerunner "before your face" could be small or big gap. John saying "My hour is not yet come" and Jesus "spent some time" in Judean country might perhaps imply some gap. There was attempted dispute re Jesus baptising and John baptising, so have to consider overlap of the two. Though some of the gospels do say Jesus was "after John put in prison". I am hampered by lack of water, health, time, freedom, resources. I couldn't even find a Greek New Testament in Roman Alphabet in search. The elite purposely make everything difficult while they falsely make it look like it is us who are dumb/wrong/bad. The Josephus "36 ad" reference is disputed by some scholars. You can claim i was misreading (might posisbly be true but it is only minor because i was/am not closed/limited/restricted by it but am always aware/open/objective), but you also could be misasserting a "some time" gap because we don't know if or what length gap there is or is not unless you provide more concrete evidence/proof for the length of it (not just vague like "after all were baptised"). Jesus can not have been born in 6/7 ad census of Quirinius because he was born in Herod Great before Archealus, and other reasons, and no star? Luke says prote "before" or "first". I also wonder about the word apographe "registration". I take note of your point that John may be between 33 to 36 ad in Josephus. Though this might only be when he was put in prison after Jesus was about 30. Dead Sea Scrolls mention 35 yrs in Vison of Daniel. Jesus was probably born between 12 to 3 bc for reasons i gave. My 3 dates for star and/or census are either 12/11 bc (Halley's) or 8/7 bc (Augustus census & conjuntions) or 3 bc (mass oath). The only hi-jacking is the few things i complained about that don't seem fair/true/genuine, otherwise your points do relate to the star and birth date because we need to confirm the right star/date with the check-point dates of Jesus life all fitting. Edited by Arthur-Robin - 02-Mar-2018 at 21:37 |
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NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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Guests
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Posted: 02-Mar-2018 at 17:02 |
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I fear I'm hijacking your thread, Arthur-Robin, away from the Star of Bethlehem and into a different aspect of when Jesus was born. I don't want to stop you in your own intellectual pursuits,
I wonder if the Gnostic Gospels have anything to say regarding the Star and the time it appeared?
Edited by .Sidney - 02-Mar-2018 at 17:31 |
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Posted: 02-Mar-2018 at 07:54 |
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I have mentioned that Josephus tells us that John the Baptist died not long before 36 AD. He also indicates that Herodias divorced her husband in about 33 AD, which divorce (according to the Gospels) was what John protested about and caused him to get arrested. So John was arrested and executed sometime between 33-36 AD. Jesus' ministry started after John's arrest, and he died after John was executed. So if we say Jesus was around in 34/35 AD then he would have been around 30, considering he was born in the Quirinius census of 6/7 AD. Luke fits together with no need to think anything is 'uncertain' in his Gospel. On the other hand, Matthew has a star appearing in the sky, the appearance of exotic strangers bearing fabulous wealth, the massacre of baby boys around Bethlehem, a secret King of the Jews fleeing to Egypt, and a family settling in Nazareth due to a seemingly irrational fear of Herod Archelaus. And all this only happening because of the direct and sole influence of prophecies and dreams. Yet this is meant to be less 'uncertain' than Luke? The fact that every commentator uses Luke in order to try and make any sense out of Matthew just shows how uncertain Matthew is!
Edited by .Sidney - 02-Mar-2018 at 08:02 |
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Posted: 02-Mar-2018 at 07:17 |
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Yes. I do think Matthew is in error. Or, as you say about Luke, the interpretation/translation of the verses might not be what he originally intended. Either way, it amounts to saying the same thing. What we think we read today is not what we need to accept.
One clear example of this is when you wrote;
This information is given in Luke. But the way this statement is interpreted (above) is due to assumptions given by previous commentators. Actually reading the verse, it is clear that the '15th year of Tiberius' is separate to when
Jesus was 'about 30'. The 15th year of Tiberius is actually when John the Baptist started his preaching. Not when Jesus started his: Luke 3:1-3 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius
Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee,
his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of
Abilene— during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came
to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness. He went into all the country around
the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. We are not told how long John the Baptist carried on his ministry, but it is only after Jesus gets baptised by him that Luke tells us; Luke 3:21&23 After all the people had been baptized,
Jesus also was baptized. When Jesus began his work, he was about thirty years
old. It is thus a misreading of the passage to say that Jesus was about 30 in the 15th year of Tiberius. It is John who began his ministry in that time, and only after an unspecified gap (but certainly after John had been baptising for some time), did Jesus then start out on his, when he was aged about 30. Basically, whenever the 15th year of Tiberius was, it was only after that date that Jesus was about 30. Edited by .Sidney - 02-Mar-2018 at 08:01 |
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